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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Faith and sense of humour incompatible?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
WTF is is that if someone on twitter (particularly) makes a joke that has a religious element (makes a slightly irreligious joke) there are ALWAYS some FUCKING losers who respond by accusations of blasphemy.
Why does having a faith seem to involve having a sense of humour removed?
And, of course there are the joke God accounts - TweetOfGod and suchlike - who get replies like "You are not God, you will go to hell for your blasphemous comments".
Like the people who set them up don't know that they are not God? Like they are not deliberately done ironically? What Fucking arrogance to assume that everyone else has no clue?
It makes me embarrassed. Why do these people seem to spend their pointless lives trawling social networks to find something to be offended by?
Go and get fucking laid or something, wankstains.
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Blog
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
To some people, Christianity, or faith in general, is a way to feel superior, to get het up about things, and to placate a streak of sadism by enjoying the prospect of people they hate being tortured in Hell for all eternity.
The best you can say about these people is that they have issues. The worst is that they're arseholes. Indeed, there is an open question why, if the Church is a body, that body needs so many arseholes.
I suppose we should be grateful we do not live in an environment where arseholes like that can actually torture and kill people, as was the case for much of the history of Europe.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I think in part it comes down to your understanding of God. The holy wrathful hellfire and brimstone God is not someone you would joke around with. My hippy relational understanding of God makes me comfortable with the jokiness.
I think it would be fair to state that both sides could identify the other as full of arseholes. And they'd be right.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I think in part it comes down to your understanding of God. The holy wrathful hellfire and brimstone God is not someone you would joke around with. My hippy relational understanding of God makes me comfortable with the jokiness.
I think it would be fair to state that both sides could identify the other as full of arseholes. And they'd be right.
Folk - all of them, not just us hippier types - create God in their own image. When people create a wrathful, angry, genocidal God it's because that reflects them. IMNAAHO, that is.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I think it reflects the presentation of God, partly denominational, partly local church, church community, family etc. It is not a reflection of their personality as much as I think you have expressed.
And if your God smites on a regular basis, then you sure as Hell don't risk your soul on a twitter feed.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Why do these people seem to spend their pointless lives trolling* social networks to find something to be offended by?
* ftfy
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I think it reflects the presentation of God, partly denominational, partly local church, church community, family etc. It is not a reflection of their personality as much as I think you have expressed.
And if your God smites on a regular basis, then you sure as Hell don't risk your soul on a twitter feed.
Well yes, but ultimately something has to give doesn't it? If you're a genuinely generous, forgiving person, not given to anger and hatred, but your God is unyielding, violent and hateful, then you have to do one of three things:
1. Change your concept of God
2. Decide that God isn't actually good (although you'll probably rationalise it as "God isn't nice", with some derision for those silly hippies who think he should be)
3. Decide that "Good", when applied to God, means something more like "nasty", but that's because we're wrong about what "Good" really means. The problem with this one is it implies that your generosity, forgiveness and lack of anger and hatred are faults.
Or there's always option 4, forget the whole thing and become an atheist.
Until one settles on one of the three options above, one is inevitably struggling with cognitive dissonance.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I don't have a problem with being a bit of an arsehole. I am irreligious at times. I laugh at my faith (and other peoples too), and I see some of the ridiculous stuff that other people take seriously. I have no problem with other people seeing me as an arsehole, because I am.
The only thing that I don't have a sense of humour about is people being abused and damaged, because, to me at least, that is not a laughing matter. I do have my limits.
I just think that a humour bypass that cannot accept that others will make jokes seems rather too problematic. These are the same people who don't see the frivolity in the bible, the poetry, the stories. I presume they see the whole book as a set of laws.
David Cameron seems to have no problem with spoof twitter accounts. Are these people saying that God is more of a psychotic bitch than David Cameron? Then I am not interested. Keep your humourless God, because if he is real, I loathe and despise your God, your faith and you.
I mean if God doesn't have a sense of humour then what is sex all about, eh?
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I may not be recognising the people you're describing.
But I find some who believe God is a severe judge who will weigh your good and bad on judgement day and you will be classified accordingly. And for others, I think a lot of it stems out of love and respect and awe for God which I think my theology lacks as much as it should.
They are genuinely nice people who are caring and compassionate. But I would never make a dodgy joke to them as it would upset them and their understanding of the holiness of God.
And some of them would remonstrate with me if I did out of concern for my soul.
But it takes nothing from their understanding of God and I don't see a cognitive dissonance. If I love and respect someone so much that your joke causes me pain as it disrespects what I hold dear, then I may gently ask you to cease.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I may not be recognising the people you're describing.
But I find some who believe God is a severe judge who will weigh your good and bad on judgement day and you will be classified accordingly. And for others, I think a lot of it stems out of love and respect and awe for God which I think my theology lacks as much as it should.
They are genuinely nice people who are caring and compassionate. But I would never make a dodgy joke to them as it would upset them and their understanding of the holiness of God.
And some of them would remonstrate with me if I did out of concern for my soul.
But it takes nothing from their understanding of God and I don't see a cognitive dissonance. If I love and respect someone so much that your joke causes me pain as it disrespects what I hold dear, then I may gently ask you to cease.
I have known people like this (though also a few assholes). I avoid upsetting them (the earnest ones) once I identify who they are. I think they are in error to consider the kind of humor I favor as an insult to God, but on the other hand, why knowingly upset them? They mean well. So I enjoy the jokes out of their hearing/reading.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
WTF is is that if someone on twitter (particularly) makes a joke that has a religious element (makes a slightly irreligious joke) there are ALWAYS some FUCKING losers who respond by accusations of blasphemy.
They would have really hated the joke competition the Ship had some years back. I haven't seen the top 10 for a while, but they were brilliant, and they were all 'religious'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I think in part it comes down to your understanding of God. The holy wrathful hellfire and brimstone God is not someone you would joke around with. My hippy relational understanding of God makes me comfortable with the jokiness.
There is a balance to be struck between the two extremes (of wrathful or hippy) whereby one can still have a "fear" of the Lord but where that need not mean terror, more a healthy respect for one's superiors. This is why the analogy of God as a parent is quite useful, as one might, as a child, have a respect for one's parents, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun. You just have to learn when and where it is appropriate.
And if God didn't have a sense of humour, why did It give men willies?
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Years ago a black waitress objected to being obliged to work when someone had hired Jim Davidson to tell jokes at the venue. Much to everyone's surprise Davidson backed her up, pointing out that anyone going to a Jim Davidson gig would know what to expect and that whilst, he personally, reserved the right to tell off colour jokes (as it were) about black people he quite accepted that not all black people were going to see the funny side. Whilst I am not an unqualified admirer of Mr Davidson's body of work, this shows a certain amount of decency and self-awareness. Some humour is offensive to people who do not completely share one's sensibilities and what is funny in one context is not funny in another. So, if you post a joke on Twitter, the odds are someone will find it offensive. It might be that they disapprove of all levity in matters of religion, it might be that the joke in question has hit them hard in the unfunny bone, it might just be that they are having a bad day. And, as the Emperor Cartagia so correctly observed, humour is, after all, subjective. As long as no-one is proposing to send the heavy mob round to your house for a full and frank discussion as to the appropriate degree of reverence to be accorded to the deity, I think it rather comes under the heading of suck it up and deal.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There are sometimes things that happen that strongly suggest that one is dealing with a person with a sense of humour.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Patdys - If someone tells a joke on twitter that I find offensive (and it does happen), then I will tweet them back and tell them that it isn't funny. I will not condemn them for telling it, just point out that I don't find it funny, with a hope that they learn where the edge is.
If they continue to make comments that I find offensive, I will stop following. I fully accept that some people make vile comments, so I just won't listen to them. What I don't do is condemn them, tell them they are going to hell or whatever. That is pointless, and just makes me look stupid.
I can look stupid enough without having to try.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
I think the reason for such reactions stems from the importance religious people put on religion in their lives. People naturally react more strongly when something they deeply care about is mocked, as opposed to something they have no vested interest in. Consider, for example, how you might react if someone was making jokes about your children. It would quite understandable if you had a visceral negative reaction to such humor.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Some of this is may be due to the shortage of good proper blasphemy in modern times. Those who seek to defend their God and religion against the unbeliever have to make do with facetious tweets rather than some one who seriously is trying to offend God.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I think the reason for such reactions stems from the importance religious people put on religion in their lives. People naturally react more strongly when something they deeply care about is mocked, as opposed to something they have no vested interest in. Consider, for example, how you might react if someone was making jokes about your children. It would quite understandable if you had a visceral negative reaction to such humor.
I make jokes about my children. Even when people make jokes about things that I don't think should be joked about, I respond by accepting their boundaries are different - and accepting that they are funny but they are not things I am happy joking about*. I don't respond with hatred.
*"Can you tell what it is yet? Right, it's my penis" is funny, but inappropriate because abuse is actually not funny - people have been scarred for life.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I think the reason for such reactions stems from the importance religious people put on religion in their lives. People naturally react more strongly when something they deeply care about is mocked, as opposed to something they have no vested interest in. Consider, for example, how you might react if someone was making jokes about your children. It would quite understandable if you had a visceral negative reaction to such humor.
I make jokes about my children. Even when people make jokes about things that I don't think should be joked about, I respond by accepting their boundaries are different - and accepting that they are funny but they are not things I am happy joking about*. I don't respond with hatred.
*"Can you tell what it is yet? Right, it's my penis" is funny, but inappropriate because abuse is actually not funny - people have been scarred for life.
It is very different to joke about one's own children than to have someone else joke about your children.
In any case, I am merely positing why people may get offended; I am not making value judgments on such behavior.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I think the reason for such reactions stems from the importance religious people put on religion in their lives. People naturally react more strongly when something they deeply care about is mocked, as opposed to something they have no vested interest in. Consider, for example, how you might react if someone was making jokes about your children. It would quite understandable if you had a visceral negative reaction to such humor.
Children are vulnerable. Shouldn't think God would be.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
I think the reason for such reactions stems from the importance religious people put on religion in their lives. People naturally react more strongly when something they deeply care about is mocked, as opposed to something they have no vested interest in. Consider, for example, how you might react if someone was making jokes about your children. It would quite understandable if you had a visceral negative reaction to such humor.
Children are vulnerable. Shouldn't think God would be.
In a way, God is vulnerable, since He does defend himself against such attacks. Thus, those of fervent religious belief may feel the impulse to defend God on His behalf, just as they would a child.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
GCabot - I do get that, I was merely pointing out that jokes are jokes. Others can make jokes about them too. I will stand up for them if people are abusive, but I don't have a problem with them being joked about (and I do love them very much!).
lilBuddha - absolutely. I will stand up for those who are abused and oppressed. There are topics that are not (in my book) up for jokes, because they are already damaged.
If God is really the oppressed, abused, downtrodden person then god is very small, very minor, irrelevant.
If your God needs the support of tossers like this, then he is far smaller than my God. My God can stand up for himself - however much of an abusive prick I am. My God doesn't SUCK.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Children are vulnerable. Shouldn't think God would be.
In a way, God is vulnerable, since He does defend himself against such attacks.
Yes but one can show how these attacks conceivably harm children. How can God possibly be harmed? A God that can be harmed by a few jokes is a wienie of a God. It's certainly not the God I worship, who is the God of all power and might, not some precious wilting flower that is going to be psychologically damaged by some comedian making God jokes part of his stand-up routine.
O, le pauvre bon Dieu! He is so put upon! He will grow up damaged and have a hard time relating to people, will he not?
This is an absurd line of argument.
quote:
Thus, those of fervent religious belief may feel the impulse to defend God on His behalf, just as they would a child.
People believe all sorts of stupid things. It just shows how stupid and/or ignorant they are. Whatever God they worship, it's not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus said, "Do you not suppose that I could pray to my father, and he would send more than twelve legions of angels?" God could easily defend himself from the psychological devastation of a few religiously off-color jokes. Of all the things we have to worry about, defending God from satire sure seems low on the list.
Some people just like to be offended, and use God as an excuse. I'd like to see them STFU and go feed the hungry and clothe the naked, but assuredly that's just me. Jesus doesn't find those things important at all.
PS that's what "vulnerable" means.
quote:
without adequate protection: open to physical or emotional harm
extremely susceptible: easily persuadable or liable to give in to temptation
physically or psychologically weak: unable to resist illness, debility, or failure
Nothing in there about choosing not to defend oneself.
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*O, the poor little God!
[ 03. July 2014, 16:21: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Gildas: quote:
And, as the Emperor Cartagia so correctly observed, humour is, after all, subjective.
Hey! I'm not the only person in the world who saw this thread and immediately thought of Emperor Cartagia! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
People may disapprove of jokes about (their) religion for several reasons, as several others have already pointed out. Whether or not a joke will be judged offensive also depends partly on whether or not you are making a joke about your own faith. Insiders can (usually) get away with being more outrageous.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
libuddha - You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am saying that these reactions are rational. I am not. I am merely proffering an explanation as to the thought processes of those who do react poorly to faith-related humor, as that was the thrust of the OP.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
oops, sorry, that's NOT what vulnerable means. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Stupid fingers.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
libuddha - You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am saying that these reactions are rational. I am not.
How foolish of her not to notice the great pains -- indeed, paragraph after paragraph -- you went through to separate your opinion from theirs.
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by GCabot:
libuddha - You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am saying that these reactions are rational. I am not.
How foolish of her not to notice the great pains -- indeed, paragraph after paragraph -- you went through to separate your opinion from theirs.
"In any case, I am merely positing why people may get offended; I am not making value judgments on such behavior."
I apologize if that was not clear enough.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
Posts: 285 | From: The Heav'n Rescued Land | Registered: Apr 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Apology accepted.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
At the risk of taking this into dangerous grounds, this is what also bugs me about those Muslims who get so het up about "blasphemous images or comments about Allah".
I should point out that I don't think deliberately offending another group is actually acceptable behaviour. However they do get all hot under the collar, when I would have thought Allah was big enough to wear his own big-girl panties.
I can even accept them pointing out to the ignorant westerners that this is offensive and they are going to hell for it. But threatening to kill people for it?
Whereas it seems to be people making sure that they are seen as being even more jealous for their Gods name than God is.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
GK Chesterton said:
quote:
It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it.
The context is an essay on spiritualism.
I don't get the context but I like the idea.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed, there is an open question why, if the Church is a body, that body needs so many arseholes.
I missed this ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Interesting, where do you draw the line between humour and offence? Some posters on this thread have asserted elsewhere that it's understandable to be offended and hurt when your religion is criticised. Is it possible to distinguish between what is acceptable because it's humorous and what is offensive and inciting hatred and violence? If so how?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
It's much more socially acceptable to be humorous if you're "within" a particular bandwagon than it is to be humorous if you're "without".
And this is because humour "within" is self-deprecating, and that's okay.
Humour to ridicule "the other" is not so cool because you're not on their side. It's an attack rather than an internal self-regulation of knowing what you don't know.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It's much more socially acceptable to be humorous if you're "within" a particular bandwagon than it is to be humorous if you're "without".
And this is because humour "within" is self-deprecating, and that's okay.
Humour to ridicule "the other" is not so cool because you're not on their side. It's an attack rather than an internal self-regulation of knowing what you don't know.
I agree with much of this analysis, except that I don't think that it's just about social acceptability and coolth. It's about what is really, really funny.
Think about it: why are there so many really good Stalinist era jokes whereas Nazi Germany only produced feeble crap? I think it's because, under Stalin, the knock on the door in the middle of the night could be for you, so the jokes are also about You, whereas most civilian Germans were safe enough under the Nazis and so the humour is all about the vulnerable Other.
The reason why racist, sexist etc jokes are out of fashion is because they no longer work as a kind of social glue and, as far as actual humour goes, they are, and always were, essentially crap.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
Maybe that's also why Mother-in-law jokes fall apart now. They wouldn't unite an audience containing a large proportion of composite family members, mature feminists and unmarried people.
Twitter's wired for immediate reaction rather than reasoned debate. I suppose proportionately compared with, say, the Ship we'll get more personal attacks launched without prior thought on Twitter than on the Ship. Unless one wanders in with a Dead Horse. Maybe Twitter should have a Dead Horse rule.
Cattyish, enjoying the Styx as much as Hell today.
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Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
So it's ok to get hot under the collar when somebody who is not part of your faith makes a joke about God?
Seems to me that a very small proportion of jokes made about religion are made by people within the particular faith community, the jokes I see about the God of Abraham are almost always made by atheists.
So in fact, most of you are disagreeing with the OP, except to the extent that humour about God/faith is ok within a particular faith group.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Seems to me that a very small proportion of jokes made about religion are made by people within the particular faith community, the jokes I see about the God of Abraham are almost always made by atheists.
Then you need to hang out with more catholics
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
So it's ok to get hot under the collar when somebody who is not part of your faith makes a joke about God?
Seems to me that a very small proportion of jokes made about religion are made by people within the particular faith community, the jokes I see about the God of Abraham are almost always made by atheists.
So in fact, most of you are disagreeing with the OP, except to the extent that humour about God/faith is ok within a particular faith group.
But in the West, faith is part of the public culture, so I think it is fair game. If we want to suggest that only initiates should be allowed to joke about the faith, then we should also stop any evangelism, because we are not interested in the perception of those outside.
It REALLY posses me off when those within the faith/a church complain that the public perception fails to understand the complex subtleties of a statement or a belief. And yet if faith is a complex matter, requiring a degree to understand then GIVE UP WITH NORMAL PEOPLE.
Public perception is EVERYTHING. If the faith is not comprehensible by anyone, then it is meaningless. If a statement in its simplest, sun-reader style interpretation is wrong then the statement is wrong.
Christianity is simple. Outsiders so often get it so much better than initiates. However unpleasant that might be.
And yes, the CofE is patriarchal, misogynist a homophobic. The real answer to this is not to argue that people are not understanding the subtleties of the churches pronouncements, it is to not be patriarchal, misogynist and homophobic.
Fucking easy. If people make jokes about an antiquated church, or a perception of faith, then accept it as some interesting insight into how people perceive Christianity.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
So it's ok to get hot under the collar when somebody who is not part of your faith makes a joke about God?
Seems to me that a very small proportion of jokes made about religion are made by people within the particular faith community, the jokes I see about the God of Abraham are almost always made by atheists.
So in fact, most of you are disagreeing with the OP, except to the extent that humour about God/faith is ok within a particular faith group.
I think intent and motivation matters. Why are you making the joke? Too belittle and vilify the other?
Personally I wouldn't make jokes about other people's faith traditions and beliefs. Simply bad taste.
Doesn't mean you can't disagree, just try and do it respectfully. Leave the jokes to the in crowd.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It REALLY posses me off when those within the faith/a church complain that the public perception fails to understand the complex subtleties of a statement or a belief. And yet if faith is a complex matter, requiring a degree to understand then GIVE UP WITH NORMAL PEOPLE.
Hardly.
That's like saying why bother with education at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Public perception is EVERYTHING.
Since when? What happened to Truth? Public perception is fickle and often superficial.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Christianity is simple.
Where's the jaw dropping smiley?
If you think it's so simple, what's it about then?
The more I know, the more I realise I don't know. And I've been studying Theology for 12 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And yes, the CofE is patriarchal, misogynist a homophobic. The real answer to this is not to argue that people are not understanding the subtleties of the churches pronouncements, it is to not be patriarchal, misogynist and homophobic.
Fucking easy. If people make jokes about an antiquated church, or a perception of faith, then accept it as some interesting insight into how people perceive Christianity.
Well here in Australia the CofE is mostly not patriarchal, mysognistic and homophobic. But that's rather besides the point.
Sounds like you're happy to joke about and poke fun of things you agree with.
What if someone pokes fun at you about something you hold to be fundamentally true? And that something "fundamentally true" doesn't have to be a church related issue, it could be on a very personal level.
[I have no idea why my quote are wonky. Sorry hosts. I have previewed.]
[Strange. Noticed why before I'd even read your post. Look at your code, even the brackets. —A]
[ 06. July 2014, 12:43: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
So it's ok to get hot under the collar when somebody who is not part of your faith makes a joke about God?
Seems to me that a very small proportion of jokes made about religion are made by people within the particular faith community, the jokes I see about the God of Abraham are almost always made by atheists.
So in fact, most of you are disagreeing with the OP, except to the extent that humour about God/faith is ok within a particular faith group.
I think intent and motivation matters. Why are you making the joke? Too belittle and vilify the other?
Personally I wouldn't make jokes about other people's faith traditions and beliefs. Simply bad taste.
Doesn't mean you can't disagree, just try and do it respectfully. Leave the jokes to the in crowd.
Are you assuming anybody making a joke about a faith tradition not their own does so to belittle and villify the other?
Not seeing the connection between disagreeing and jokes, seems like 2 quite distinct concepts to me.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Christianity is simple.
Where's the jaw dropping smiley?
If you think it's so simple, what's it about then?
The more I know, the more I realise I don't know. And I've been studying Theology for 12 years.
It is simple - we are imperfect, the divine is perfect, and wants us to be able to reach to that perfection.
Just because it is simple, doesn't mean that there is not also incredible depth to be found in it. E=mc^2 is simple, but has powered most of physics for the last century because of the implications of it.
And it could be that you are exceptionally thick, of course.
The thing is, most people cannot do complex engineering. If you want to be involved in it, you need to study and have qualifications.
And yes perception is everything, because most people are not insiders, but have a view on Christianity based on their perception. Their decision as to whether to take it seriously, give any credence to it, is often based on a reaction to the public persona - read Marcus Brigstocke "God collar" if you want proof of this. The argument that is so often used "well it is not really like that" makes me chuck.
Happy to poke fun at things I agree with? Well, I am happy for people to poke fun at you, and I don't agree with you. Even those things that I would not make jokes about I accept that others might. I don't find them funny, I don't repeat them, but others do. I don't respond by telling these people they will burn in hell for something I don't find funny.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
What if someone pokes fun at you about something you hold to be fundamentally true? And that something "fundamentally true" doesn't have to be a church related issue, it could be on a very personal level.
This seems a key point. A says something B doesn't agree with, B could just think "How silly of A to believe such a thing" and carry on with her life. But something seems to drive most of us to respond - and do so angrily. I have no complaint* with being told that my comments could land me in Hell if the information is offered as a well meant warning but why the vehemence?
* in principle ...
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Sometimes it's the fear that simply not responding will make one the "loser" in the exchange. And a lot of people are desperately driven to prove themselves the winners, this time and all the time, which they see as being the ones who get the last word.
In other cases people think that simply shutting up will somehow be the same as agreeing with the offensive person. Thus they feel duty-bound to get into it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Maybe that's also why Mother-in-law jokes fall apart now.
<Tangent alert>
I volunteer in adult ed, with a bunch of older guys who go back a long way around these parts.
Ken: My Mum worked at the Co-op Biscuits in Cheetham Hill.
Group: Oh yeah.
Ken: She worked there with Les Dawson's mother-in-law.
Group (a bit more interested): Oh yeah? What was she like?
Ken:
Quite nice, actually.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I think it's perfectly possible to make a religious-themed joke without being disrespectful or villifying. It just tends to make more care and effort, and if one's audience is unbelievers one might as well go for the cheap shot.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Try Blue's Jokes by Rabbi Lionel Blue for appropriate use of jokes.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Marcus Brigstock's book is available from the Church of England bookshop
?
When he did a rant against the religions on the Now Show, there were many appreciative comments from the clergy the following week.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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