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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: My rather urgent atheist-godfather dilemma
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I've been asked to be a godparent to my brother's daughter, and the Christening service is to be held on Easter Sunday. His wife and her family are churchy Christians, though he is not, and is merely humouring them in a dutiful kind of way. He knows I'm an atheist and says this doesn't matter as far as he's concerned, as the religious event is entirely symbolic and he wanted to honour me by asking me to be godparent regardless of my personal standpoint.
I accepted despite my intellectual scruples, as I felt it really doesn't matter given that there's no god anyway, but as the day approaches I'm feeling increasingly conflicted. Obviously, I do not want to let my brother down, and indeed I am honestly committed to being a good figure in my niece's life in what I suppose is a very godparental kind of way (just without the god bit), but I cannot in good conscience make promises or vows to bring the girl up in the footsteps of a deity in which I have no belief. I shall have to commit fraud.
I shall be required to do so in full public view on one of the busiest and indeed holiest church days of the year, and, although I am quite capable of this and fear no supernatural reprisal, I feel it would be both hypocritical to my personal values and disrespectful to the faithful, and I'm uncomfortable about that.
I'd be grateful for your thoughts and advice.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I agree with you. You don't have to make promises you have no intention of keeping in order to be an important and influential figure in your niece's life. If you want to be a good example to her, don't start by perjuring yourself.
You can show just as much commitment without being an official godparent as far as the church is concerned - and presumably you have no interest in the church's take on it. You could even make a special joke of it - "'god'parent without portfolio".
Please don't do it.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
One of our good friends became a 'fairy godmother' to our kids, for precisely this reason.
Whatever you think of the Christian faith now, you should reasonably respect the intentions of the priest and congregation at the service. If you can't see any prospect of you fulfilling the duties of godfather, apologise and withdraw.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
, I feel it would be both hypocritical to my personal values and disrespectful to the faithful, and I'm uncomfortable about that.
Agree. Don't do it.
Perhaps you could be "involved" in another way. You could make a little speech or read a poem at the post baptism meal/celebration. You could be present in the formal photos.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Someone I know is married to an atheist. She is now in the process of discernment as regards ordination. When their children were baptised her husband stood at the front of the church with her and the godparents because he knew it was important to them all. He did not take part in the vows. Of course he is fully involved in the children's lives. Could you talk to your brother and sister-in-law and perhaps do something similar? Or perhaps that would still feel hypocritical to you?
Sorry, what an awful dilemma for you! The fruit of your initial generous response.... but maybe it can be turned for the good?
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
ISTM your primary loyalty is to your brother and his wife. If telling them you've changed your mind is going to cause a family shit-storm, repercussions and fallings out, I'd say just go ahead and do the thing. The quality of your relationship with them (and therefore with little sprog) is most important.
If you have the type of relationship where you can explain your reservations to brother and his wife and they will respect you, I agree with the posters above.
Good luck!
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Thank you all very much. My loyalty is very much to my brother and the rest of my family, and when I agreed to be godparent I felt this would overrule my inner conflict. However, I have thought long and hard about the price I shall have to pay to myself for my own hypocrisy and the stain of secretly disrespecting something solemn and serious to other people, which I do sincerely respect (believe it or not!).
I'm very grateful for the advice not to do this. My immediate and huge relief now tells me all I need to know about what I should do. I shall regrettably decline, and make up for my failing by devoting myself to my niece as though I were the best godfather ever.
Thank you.
[ 16. April 2014, 12:17: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Ah, a christening - "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God".
There's one thing you can do to help your niece's spiritual growth, Yorick. Buy an 18th birthday card, and among the greetings, write "http://forum.ship-of-fools.com". Then put it aside till the birthday comes round.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Major respect to you for noticing and being conflicted by this conflict. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Absolutely you can't say the vows.
However, you may (with the family and pastor's agreement) stand up with them at the front to show support, keeping your mouth shut. We've had siblings, grandparents etc do that before--you'd be basically an auxiliary family member.
And since "godparent" has two meanings in English, one of them basically secular now, you could I think refer to yourself that way without any problems--you know, the "fairy godfather" type thing. If you agree with that reasoning, you don't need to tell them you don't want to be a godfather--just say that you can't in good conscience take the vows, but would be happy to stand up with them/be a fairy godfather/dote on the kid, and is that enough for them?
If they say yes, that allows them to ask another godparent to join you at the font who will take the vows and do that part of the job.
Again,
. I've spent so much of my life dealing with people of all sorts who don't think words matter.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I've been asked to be a godparent to my brother's daughter, and the Christening service is to be held on Easter Sunday. His wife and her family are churchy Christians, though he is not, and is merely humouring them in a dutiful kind of way.
I'm surprised that the 'churchy' wife and her family were keen for you, an atheist, to fulfill this role in the first place. You've left it a bit late to pull out, though. Will they be able to find someone else in time?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Agreed. Don't do it.
The child can continue with as many (or few) godparents as remain after your withdrawal - there is no hard-and-fast rule about numbers.
As for your involvement in your new niece's life - you can continue - should continue - that without the title of Godparent.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
If I were doing the baptism, I would thank you for your respect and honesty. I didn't get into this gig to suborn perjury. I'd be delighted to welcome you as part of the gathered assembly to witness this baptism but appreciate you stepping aside for formal godparenthood.* I don't know the CofE rules, but us Catholics don't require two godparents, so you wouldn't be putting the parents in a bind by backing out.
--
* Really, spell-checker??? You think that's a real word?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Church of England Canon Law says "not fewer than three", but if three cannot be had, then two, "one godfather and godmother shall suffice". Parents may be godparents "provided that the child have at least one other godparent".
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
If they have a relationship with the priest doing the baptism, could you make some promises after the christening? It's what I'm planning to do with potential child who has an agnostic father.
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
A friend of mine in a similar situation performed her duty to her sister and niece by silently standing with the godparents, and holding the baby before and after the sprinkling.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
A friend of mine in a similar situation performed her duty to her sister and niece by silently standing with the godparents, and holding the baby before and after the sprinkling.
I've done something similar at baptisms when one of more of the proposed godparents was not baptised (Church in Wales). It would be for Yorick to decide how far he wanted to go (would being so close to a font run the risk of collateral damage by holy water? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) but I think he's right to stand back.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Yorick: be honest and don't do it. Or, if you are present at the baptism, keep your mouth firmly shut.
God respects honesty -- even if you think He is a figment of our imagination.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Yorick for being honest. I get really annoyed when children are brought to church, promises are made and not kept, and we never see the child again. I'm not suggesting this will happen in this case, but bravo for not making promises you can't keep, though I'm sure you will do everything you can to support and encourage her.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
The big problem istm is how difficult is it for your brother and his wife to find an alternative godparent. Is this sudden withdrawal going to wreck the baptism? But as said above I think that the formal requirement is for two godparents of the child's gender and one of the opposite gender.
So if the vicar is sympathetic then you could easily be part of the service and making a commitment to be a friend to the child and family, called a supporting adult in the civil naming ceremony, without taking godparent vows.
The above assumes CofE, I don't know about other denominations.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
The above assumes there are two male godparents.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
The big problem istm is how difficult is it for your brother and his wife to find an alternative godparent. Is this sudden withdrawal going to wreck the baptism?
Having a perjured godparent will wreck the baptism far more than having to scramble for another godparent, or just having the planned party (I assume) and rescheduling the baptism itself for another day.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I am bemused by the apparent disconnect between brother, sister-in-law, and sister-in-law's reported Christianity:
He: "Hey, honey, I asked my avowedly atheist brother Yorick to stand up and make vows to a God he doesn't believe in to help raise our child in a faith he doesn't believe in, I felt we needed to honour him in the baptism."
She: "Oh sure, that sounds perfectly all right."
Now, maybe the He/She conversation went quite differently, and She is accepting it because of a variety of other tensions and/or prior marital negotiations between He and She. Or maybe she has absorbed too much of her culture's beliefs about christenings and not enough of her religion's beliefs about baptisms. It seems odd, though.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
The big problem istm is how difficult is it for your brother and his wife to find an alternative godparent. Is this sudden withdrawal going to wreck the baptism?
Having a perjured godparent will wreck the baptism far more than having to scramble for another godparent, or just having the planned party (I assume) and rescheduling the baptism itself for another day.
Oh, I don't know, I have no idea who my godparents even were or what they believed. I don't think my baptism was wrecked.
I was roped in as a second godparent at the last minute for a niece when the parents discovered they needed a second female godparent. The male godparent explained that he had no religious beliefs but was persuaded to take on the role. I don't think my niece's baptism was wrecked by this.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Externally, no, of course not. If it's all about putting on a show with the right bodies present, then of course it doesn't matter what the actors themselves believe, as long as they stand in the right spots and speak on cue.
Or if one believes that the godparents are actually irrelevant, then perhaps it doesn't matter either.
If someone cares about what's really happening, then asking someone to perjure themselves as part of a sacrament seems strange.
And perhaps the baptism won't be wrecked in the opinion of most of the participants, and certainly the baby will be validly baptised into the body of Christ, but Yorick will have been asked to violate a core value he has about truth-telling. Asking him to do that for the sake of some social convention that the baptism must happen on the scheduled date with the planned number of bodies-as-props -- that's just wrong.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
... I shall regrettably decline, and make up for my failing by devoting myself to my niece as though I were the best godfather ever ...
Congratulations - like many others here I respect your honesty, and IMHO you're doing the right thing.
Go, enjoy the christening, and be the best uncle* ever.
* I'm an aunt (and great-aunt, although probably not the greatest aunt) and I've found that the giving of teddy-bears is very beneficial to the well-being of both parties. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It sounds like you're making the right move. It does remind me of a story from my youth about some Catholic children who ended up being left with a neighbor for a week during a family emergency. The Jewish neighbors took very good care of the children including the task of making sure they were drilled in their catechism every night. Admittedly being a godparent is a longer stint.
As for teddy bears, I don't deal with a lot of infants but a friend turned me on to a variant. these toys that are a combination of a small security blanket and a stuffed animal head like a frog or bear. They are washable and have the endearing tendency of becoming the favorite toy for a lot longer than one might think.
[ 18. April 2014, 03:38: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
Yorick - how did it go?
Mrs. S, irredeemably nosy ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I shall regrettably decline, and make up for my failing by devoting myself to my niece as though I were the best godfather ever.
Thank you.
I don't think this should be regarded as a 'failing' at all, Yorick! You've demonstrated yourself to be a person of sound conscious and integrity - surely a good example for a young child to look up to. I'm sure you'll be a fabulous humanist 'god'father!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am an ungodly parent to a few small children of athiest friends. As an athiest I think you could proudly claim this title too
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Thank you, dear folk. It went really well. My brother, and in fact everyone concerned, were amazingly good natured about my decision, and indeed I felt highly respect for my conscientious withdrawal.
The ceremony went well- I was most generously included in the thing, and even got to pour the urn of water into the font with dramatic flourish, which I greatly enjoyed, and I stood at the front with the proper godparents for bits of the service. It was great.
Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. I appreciate it very much.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
That is great.
I think you're going to be an excellent 'god'father.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Ags
Knocked up
# 204
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Posted
I think she's a very fortunate little girl. Glad it went well
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I think that we are most ourselves at our best, because that is what God intended us to be. The us we really like, the us that others love to be with. Moth
Posts: 2707 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I think God is the funniest God ever and this is thread is the a top ten SoF thread. Well done Yorick, you will look back on this thread in years to come with great delight.
I am honestly grinning from ear to ear.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The ceremony went well- I was most generously included in the thing, and even got to pour the urn of water into the font with dramatic flourish, which I greatly enjoyed, and I stood at the front with the proper godparents for bits of the service. It was great.
Excellent! I wish you many happy years with your niece, Uncle Yorick.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
My nieces are now 37 and 39 and we still have great times together. I used to do all the things by brother and wife had no time for (we had no kids 'till my nieces were well into their teens)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curious
Shipmate
# 93
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Posted
What ChastMaster just said. Yorick, I salute your integrity - what a brilliant life-value to demonstrate to your niece.
Curious
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Erin - you are missed more than you could know. Rest in peace and rise in glory - to provide unrest in the heavenly realms.
Posts: 1372 | From: Betwixt and between | Registered: May 2001
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Yorick 
