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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: damaged goods
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
From a blog I sometimes read.
The thought that immediately came to mind was of a certain friend of ours. I remember the first time I visited a particular congregation while I was in college. At the time she was just a girl was there seeking baptism. She was pregnant but single. The thing that stands out most in my memory is that the people there looked at her properly. That event filled me with hope that there might be room for me, too.
I stuck around.
There's a lot more that could be said about what all has happened in life since then. Good things.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I've had similar moments, Mere Nick, when I've seen people taken into fellowship as they are not as we would want them to be in some Barbie World.
And I am also thinking of a comment by someone I know who joined a church. She said, "I was waiting. Why? Because my life had become complicated, and everyone knows you need to have a perfect life before you can join a church." Luckily, she was joining a church where that statement was not true.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
An excellent link in the OP.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
The flaw here, of course, lies in thinking of virginity in purely physical terms.
A woman who "surrenders" -- that is, willingly offers herself sexually, out of love or trust or commitment, to another -- that's what virginity is really all about. Her love, her trust, is the gift she bestows.
Since that doesn't happen in rape or coercion, her emotional virginity (which is the one that really matters) remains intact.
[code]
[ 10. September 2014, 05:23: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is the concept of virginity, at base, sexist? I think it is. It should be dumped completely. It possibly made sense when pregnancy was life threatening and births could not be regulated properly.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
The thing that stands out most in my memory is that the people there looked at her properly.
What a superb phrase! I like the idea of church as a place where they look at you properly. Evangelism as seeing people properly. Healing as being seen.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
As the concept of virginity applies to both sexes, no, it isn't sexist.
That people make a bigger (or different) deal of it for women than men, that's sexist.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Before a trip to Rome, I read a book on the church of St Agnes - which I then did not get to see, but that's by the way. The writer spent her last chapter arguing that it would have been better for women if so many of the early martyrdom stories had not been so emphatic that women had been miraculously protected from losing their virginity, and the status of Martyr and Virgin had not been made so much of. (I assume she was excluding people like Perpetua and Felicity from this.) By taking this position, in cases where such protection could not have been proveable by any evidence, and where it probably didn't happen, the hagiographies made it impossible for other women, similarly treated, to regard themselves as still whole, and holy in the sight of God. What is not given cannot diminish a woman, what someone else does diminishes them, not her. She argued for a change in the way that the Church sees women, and that the stories of saints should be told in a more realistic way, so as to enable this.
I think the difference in the way virginity has been regarded in men and women lies in the need for men to be sure they were nurturing their own children - and it was once believed that once one man had lain with a woman, that could "contaminate" future pregnancies. By analogy with waht was believed about animals which bred with inferior stock, such as bitches which got out when on heat. All subsequent litters would be regarded as not purebred. Historically.
[ 09. September 2014, 22:00: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
I find the notion of a woman "surrendering" sex extremely problematic.
Sex isn't a gift that a woman has "saved" and bestows upon her man. It's not a special prize that the woman holds the key to and graciously "allows" the man to "take".
It's an exchange between two (er, or more) people. It's a co-created artistic thingy. It's a dance that everyone participates in, even if one person leads and the other follows.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
As the concept of virginity applies to both sexes, no, it isn't sexist.
That people make a bigger (or different) deal of it for women than men, that's sexist.
I can't think of any words like "slut" or "whore" that has the power to make a guy feel so low and tainted. Looking at John 8 when they brought the woman caught in adultery, but not the guy, it seems we're talking about a thought process that has been going on for thousands of years.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Excellent link in the OP.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
The thing that stands out most in my memory is that the people there looked at her properly.
What a superb phrase! I like the idea of church as a place where they look at you properly. Evangelism as seeing people properly. Healing as being seen.
When I went home for the summer, I met a guy at church who had moved down from New York. We became good friends and he even decided to go to college. He met the girl at the church near college and they eventually were married. He adopted her daughter as his own. They live in New York and are having a great life together.
I met and married a girl at that church, too. We're also having a great life together. We celebrated our 32nd anniversary two months ago.
Come to think of it, I think all four of us ended up being baptized there. Good things can grow from tiny seeds. Just their looking at someone properly helped the seed of faith to grow inside of me because they really believed that Jesus can make us right with God. Not right with an asterisk besides the names of certain girls.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm talking to my son about virginity. His, I mean, not his future wife's. Not because I have some crackpot idea about contamination or whatever, but because I do think it's preferable at marriage for both genders over sleeping around. Besides the obvious pregnancy and disease concerns, I think it would be easier on my daughter-in-law to know that her husband was not comparing her sexually to any previous partners (yes, yes, we should all be self-confident and all that, but it doesn't always work that way, especially in this really vulnerable part of life). And if he is able to control his sexual desires prior to marriage, she may feel a bit easier trusting him to be faithful during marriage.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm talking to my son about virginity. His, I mean, not his future wife's. Not because I have some crackpot idea about contamination or whatever, but because I do think it's preferable at marriage for both genders over sleeping around. Besides the obvious pregnancy and disease concerns, I think it would be easier on my daughter-in-law to know that her husband was not comparing her sexually to any previous partners (yes, yes, we should all be self-confident and all that, but it doesn't always work that way, especially in this really vulnerable part of life). And if he is able to control his sexual desires prior to marriage, she may feel a bit easier trusting him to be faithful during marriage.
It's always tough to guess the preferences of someone who is purely hypothetical (e.g. a son's future wife). Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it).
There's an interesting new study* that indicates stressing purity to young men can have some negative repercussions.
quote:
These men are also taught to think of sex outside of marriage as animalistic and foul, but sacred within a marriage, according to a new study presented Aug. 17, here at the 109th American Sociological Association meeting.
As a result, male virginity pledgers can be somewhat confused and lost when it comes to sex after marriage, said study researcher Sarah Diefendorf, a sociology doctoral candidate at the University of Washington in Seattle.
"They spend the first 20-something years of their lives being told that sex is wrong," Diefendorf told Live Science. "They're expected to make this transition from the beastly to the sacred, but they don't really have the tools to be able to do that effectively."
The upshot seems to be that support for not having sex is plentiful before marriage, but advice on having good sex after marriage seems to be thin on the ground in these purity culture situations. This seems to include difficulties in having frank sexual discussions with their wives.
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*Yes, small sample size, preliminary results, yadda yadda yadda. The study is indicative rather than definitive, but the results seem reasonable.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Let's remember, please, that there is a big difference between "purity culture" and the simple, historic advocation of chastity.
Speaking from singular anecdotal (and hopefully discrete) experience: as a woman married first to a man who was very much a player, and later to a devout man with no such prior exploits, I was happily surprised how very little experience has to do with such things. Indeed, I was pleased to learn that the very same things that contribute to making one a good partner outside the bedroom-- things like generosity, kindness, patience, a sense of humor and curiosity, playfulness-- all translate quite nicely into good qualities in the bedroom. And for whatever doesn't translate, I was surprised and pleased to discover that one can actually learn quite a bit from a good book.
ymmv.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Let's remember, please, that there is a big difference between "purity culture" and the simple, historic advocation of chastity.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Indeed, I was pleased to learn that the very same things that contribute to making one a good partner outside the bedroom-- things like generosity, kindness, patience, a sense of humor and curiosity, playfulness-- all translate quite nicely into good qualities in the bedroom.
1000 times Amen!
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think the difference in the way virginity has been regarded in men and women lies in the need for men to be sure they were nurturing their own children - and it was once believed that once one man had lain with a woman, that could "contaminate" future pregnancies. By analogy with waht was believed about animals which bred with inferior stock, such as bitches which got out when on heat. All subsequent litters would be regarded as not purebred. Historically.
Yes.
It is entirely possible, if not that common, for a bitch to produce a litter that is sired by two different males dogs.
Now that we have DNA testing for the unsure this should not be an issue at all. But men are still far more bothered about a woman who has had previous partners then the other way round. It's unequal and unfair, of course - but it must have its roots somewhere and will take time to grow out of.
Personally I'm glad I had a few sexual partners before my husband. I now know what a diamond I have! How rare is a man who only has eyes for you?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
I have a dear female cousin living with me at the moment. I'd love her to find the right guy after a few shots like Boogie has, but it's not so easy in Brisbane. It's too crazy here. I'd want to perform a lie-detector test on every guy she meets.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's always tough to guess the preferences of someone who is purely hypothetical (e.g. a son's future wife). Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it)....
There's an interesting new study* that indicates stressing purity to young men can have some negative repercussions....
The upshot seems to be that support for not having sex is plentiful before marriage, but advice on having good sex after marriage seems to be thin on the ground in these purity culture situations. This seems to include difficulties in having frank sexual discussions with their wives....
We're not in purity culture. We're Lutherans, and this is bog-standard chastity.
As for thinking of sex as dirty or undesirable,
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) . Not.Having.That.Problem.
As for difficulties in having frank sexual discussions, well, I never thought anyone would manage it, but he's gotten me to blush on a few occasions. Mostly when he's trying to visualize various sexual techniques and comes to me for a, er, more graphic explanation. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Thanks for the concern!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it).
Everyone knows that if a man isn't married the first time he has sex he can instinctively find a clitoris without trying. It's only on getting married that men lose their instinctive knowledge.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing. You don't 'lose' anything the first time you have sex, and there's no physical difference between someone who hasn't had sex and someone who has (as many people know now, the hymen is a membrane that not all women are even born with, and those who do can have it stretched by all sorts of things, such as tampons).
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It has an =experiential= reality. As in there is a first time you ate lychee, or rode a roller coaster, or went water-skiing. What is silly is the moral, and certainly monetary, value put upon it. Are you a better person if you are a virgin? Are you more marriageable, can your father charge a higher bride-price for you?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It has an =experiential= reality. As in there is a first time you ate lychee, or rode a roller coaster, or went water-skiing. What is silly is the moral, and certainly monetary, value put upon it. Are you a better person if you are a virgin? Are you more marriageable, can your father charge a higher bride-price for you?
That's more like it! All things are intellectual constructs (either individual or social). That's how cognition works. The question is surely more the utility or value of that construct.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I thought the article in the OP was excellent. Elizabeth Smart is a hero of mine for her courage and her example to all women who have been victims of rape. She demonstrates by everything about manner and her serene dignity that the act need not touch your essential self.
I was well aware of the "damaged goods," mind set when I was a young woman and it had nothing to do with anything as disgusting as a "purity pledge," in front of family and church. Presbyterians in the 1960's just didn't talk about sex. My knowledge of how a girl might be, "ruined," came from hundreds of gothic romances and movies. The movie, "Come Back Little Sheba," had a profound effect on me, I couldn't imagine anything worse than being married to a man who resented me forever because he "had to," marry me.
I have a friend from college who, after enjoying some wild times with college boyfriends, met and married a hometown boy and forever after avoided her college friends for fear we would let something slip about her "past." It was very common for young women to feel they had to continue to date and then marry any man they had slept with -- even if she had come to dislike him-- just because she was now ruined for anyone else.
I love how the essay suggests that we still teach the value in waiting for marriage but consider any slip-ups the same as slip-ups in any other area like drinking or gossiping -- just something we need to keep working on.
The very idea that a woman who has never had sex, however, selfish, cruel or dishonest she may be, is superior to one who has experienced sex is just ridiculous. I hate the very word, virgin.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The very idea that a woman who has never had sex, however, selfish, cruel or dishonest she may be, is superior to one who has experienced sex is just ridiculous. I hate the very word, virgin.
That's one of the outgrowths of purity culture (whether called that or not). Women's morality is wholly and entirely sexual. In other words, whether a woman is "good" or not is entirely determined by how closely she adheres to whatever the local code of sexual morality happens to be. If a woman has unapproved sex, she's a "bad woman" regardless of anything else she does. Conversely, any woman whose only sex is within the approved boundaries is "good", even if she steals from orphans and kicks puppies in her spare time (for example).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Maybe she wouldn't care about comparisons with the past but would like him to be able to find a clitoris (and know what to do once he's found it).
Everyone knows that if a man isn't married the first time he has sex he can instinctively find a clitoris without trying. It's only on getting married that men lose their instinctive knowledge.
Thank you. I was trying to find a way to reply to that without divulging too much personal information (some of it about other people).
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I hate the very word, virgin.
But I like extra virgin olive oil.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's one of the outgrowths of purity culture (whether called that or not). Women's morality is wholly and entirely sexual. In other words, whether a woman is "good" or not is entirely determined by how closely she adheres to whatever the local code of sexual morality happens to be. If a woman has unapproved sex, she's a "bad woman" regardless of anything else she does. Conversely, any woman whose only sex is within the approved boundaries is "good", even if she steals from orphans and kicks puppies in her spare time (for example).
Maybe where you're from. Where I'm from a woman who has "unapproved" sex may be called a lot of things, but a "bad woman" isn't generally one of them. That comes from some culture that defines human beings solely in terms of their sexual status and rates men as higher status if they've had sex with a lot of women, even if that sex was once considered licit within the Christian tradition (polygamy).
Which is an outgrowth of the human tendency to rank and judge others.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Why do men want to marry virgins? They can't stand criticism.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
The virgins or the men?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
This discussion is now verging on the ridiculous, isn't it?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing. You don't 'lose' anything the first time you have sex, and there's no physical difference between someone who hasn't had sex and someone who has (as many people know now, the hymen is a membrane that not all women are even born with, and those who do can have it stretched by all sorts of things, such as tampons).
Exactly.
There is nothing lost in having good, consensual, uncomplicated (as in no other partner is being cheated on) sex.
I bought my boys double beds for their rooms when they turned 18. It was how they treated their partners which mattered to me, not whether or not they had sex with them.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
I bought my boys double beds for their rooms when they turned 18. It was how they treated their partners which mattered to me, not whether or not they had sex with them.
Yes, but shouldn't they stake out their own tent before they start bringing in mates? Isn't that a step in the passage to adulthood, with all its responsibilities and perks? Are you prepared to foot the bill for the crib and all surrounding baby costs, too?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing. You don't 'lose' anything the first time you have sex, and there's no physical difference between someone who hasn't had sex and someone who has (as many people know now, the hymen is a membrane that not all women are even born with, and those who do can have it stretched by all sorts of things, such as tampons).
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
This is worth highlighting.
I makes me consider the current umbrage, horror and upset over the iCloud leakage of various young American actresses' naked selfies- symbolic virtuous women, if not really virginal - and the opposite response to the illicit releases of the Paris Hilton, Kim Kardarshian sex videos - symbolic whore and sluts, and obviously not virginal given the videos' content.
The former go to heaven as elect and the latter to hell as damned right?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
There is nothing lost in having good, consensual, uncomplicated (as in no other partner is being cheated on) sex.
Well that depends on what you profess to live by, and what you may have promised. You can lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, and this should not simply be dismissed.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
As I continue to think about this, it is wondrous that we have a "just war" doctrine, that justifies war in some circumstances, but our "just sex" doctrine would suggest that there is never "just sex" and certainly only narrow justification for sex in only very specific circumstances, and more restrictive the more traditional-cum-sexist you are. How many of us would rather be fucking than fighting?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yes, but shouldn't they stake out their own tent before they start bringing in mates? Isn't that a step in the passage to adulthood, with all its responsibilities and perks? Are you prepared to foot the bill for the crib and all surrounding baby costs, too?
They both have their own tents now.
But why should there be any baby costs in thse days of simple and effective contraception?
My friends son, aged eighteen, has a baby - he was very much told 'no sex before marriage' and clearly didn't think or plan. I, personally, much prefer my thoughtful young adults who realise sex isn't in the least taboo. But that sex is to be taken seriously and with consideration for partners and using effective contraception.
[ 11. September 2014, 17:55: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
But why is that a significant thing that needs its own word? Do we have special words for people who haven't eaten chocolate, or people who haven't seen Star Wars?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
quote:
There is nothing lost in having good, consensual, uncomplicated (as in no other partner is being cheated on) sex.
Well that depends on what you profess to live by, and what you may have promised. You can lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, and this should not simply be dismissed.
You could lose the sense that you are in line with what God wants, but you'd be in error. It's sex for pity's sake, not genocide.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
I bought my boys double beds for their rooms when they turned 18. It was how they treated their partners which mattered to me, not whether or not they had sex with them.
Yes, but shouldn't they stake out their own tent before they start bringing in mates? Isn't that a step in the passage to adulthood, with all its responsibilities and perks? Are you prepared to foot the bill for the crib and all surrounding baby costs, too?
Um since when did having sex = having babies? Aside from anything else, 'partners' doesn't indicate anything about the gender of the other person.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
But why is that a significant thing that needs its own word? Do we have special words for people who haven't eaten chocolate, or people who haven't seen Star Wars?
Erm, chocolate virgins and Star Wars virgins...?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But why should there be any baby costs in thse days of simple and effective contraception?
Because among those couples using condoms as their primary method of contraception, approximately 14 percent will experience an unintended pregnancy during the first year.
I would feel safer if it was my daughter whom I had told to be sure and use contraception. She would have some relatively fool proof options. Boys, not so much, plus your sons may not even know about their offspring until after most of the decisions have been made.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But why should there be any baby costs in thse days of simple and effective contraception?
Because among those couples using condoms as their primary method of contraception, approximately 14 percent will experience an unintended pregnancy during the first year.
I would feel safer if it was my daughter whom I had told to be sure and use contraception. She would have some relatively fool proof options. Boys, not so much, plus your sons may not even know about their offspring until after most of the decisions have been made.
By effective contraception I mean good communication and both partners taking effective precautions. It's when those conversations are
not had that the problems occur - as in my friend's son.
Openness about sex helps there to be less unwanted pregnancy, not more. Head in the sand attitudes never work in my book.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Virginity is an invention and a social construct - it's not actually a real thing.
...
I completely reject the notion of virginity.
It presumably is a thing in so far as it describes someone who hasn't had sex?
But why is that a significant thing that needs its own word? Do we have special words for people who haven't eaten chocolate, or people who haven't seen Star Wars?
Erm, chocolate virgins and Star Wars virgins...?
No, I meant unique words of their own. Virginity being a thing suggests that a person is inherently changed by having sex. That's not true, therefore the whole concept of virginity is bogus.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jade Constable: Virginity being a thing suggests that a person is inherently changed by having sex.
I disagree. Virginity is just a label for whether a person has had (pentrative) sex or not. As such, it has its uses. Some people tie the wrong consequences to this, but you can hardly blame that on the word.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by twilight quote:
I would feel safer if it was my daughter whom I had told to be sure and use contraception. She would have some relatively fool proof options. Boys, not so much, plus your sons may not even know about their offspring until after most of the decisions have been made.
If I had a daughter I would adopt the same line as I have with my sons: that is, to say that in this day and age there really are no 'accidents' but that, in any case, contraception is for both parties and if you don't feel able to either discuss or take responsibility for contraception then you aren't ready for an adult sexual relationship.
With my sons I made it pretty clear that if they weren't ready to become fathers they must bear the responsibility for contraception.
I also told them that with STIs now including HIV as well as the horrors our generation knew, an unplanned pregnancy would be evidence of criminally risky behaviour.
As for virginity - surely one of the main reasons for it being 'prized' was that it guaranteed knowledge of who the father of any children was. With modern DNA tests the requirement for virginity has gone.
Above all, virginity and its preservation was yet another means of controlling girls and women.
Sure, for a woman to have her first full penetrative sexual experience one of violence and force is grotesque, but it doesn't make her 'damaged' for her next and subsequent consensual encounters, it means she is a survivor of brutal assault which is something that should be celebrated.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Jade Constable: Virginity being a thing suggests that a person is inherently changed by having sex.
I disagree. Virginity is just a label for whether a person has had (pentrative) sex or not. As such, it has its uses. Some people tie the wrong consequences to this, but you can hardly blame that on the word.
Okay. So I had a lot of sexual experiences that didn't involve penetrative sex. Was I a virgin?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Garasu: Okay. So I had a lot of sexual experiences that didn't involve penetrative sex. Was I a virgin?
That's up to you to decide. It's just a word.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
In that case, surely it involves something more than whether or not penetrative sex was inolved? If I decide that he didn't really penetrate me, I presumably haven't experienced penetrative sex?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Garasu: In that case, surely it involves something more than whether or not penetrative sex was inolved? If I decide that he didn't really penetrate me, I presumably haven't experienced penetrative sex?
Whatever you want Garasu, whatever you want.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Openness about sex helps there to be less unwanted pregnancy, not more. Head in the sand attitudes never work in my book.
I totally agree with you about that and I think parents who tell their teens simply not to have sex are living in a fools paradise, but I think parents who think they only need to tell their kids to use birth control and to talk openly with their partner, and all will be well, are living in a bit of a fools paradise as well.
Men sometimes get a little drunk and fumble their condoms, women sometimes forget to take their pill.
In the 1940's in the U.S. unmarried births were about 3%. Since then with all the advances in birth control, unmarried births have soared to over 40% for first births. Some of these births were wanted but many of them were not and that doesn't reflect all the abortions. I'm just saying, birth control is highly over rated.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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