|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Gehenna ... holy to the Lord
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Since I can't follow the sermon I was re-reading the lectionary passages this morning, and reading the surrounding verses.
And, I came upon Jer 31:40.
quote:
The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown ... will be holy to the Lord.
Now, I'm not usually one to get caught up on a single verse, much less a part of a single verse, but as I read it I was struck by a thought that refuses to leave me alone.
I'm very used to references to Gehenna, the valley outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burnt and the bodies of criminals dumped, as a description of Hell, the ultimate place of punishment for evil, a place abuot as unholy as one could think of.
The thought that struck me was, is this valley in Jeremiah 31 the same as Gehenna. And, if so what does it say about the popular portrayal of Gehenna/Hell as a place of ultimate un-holiness that it will be holy to the Lord?
The power of the Lord is such that He can redeem the most unredeemable, that He can make the most vile and filthy holy.
quote:
His blood can make the foulest clean,
His blood availed for me.
Can that amazing grace of His blood extend to making Hell itself clean?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
|
Posted
It's an interesting thought, Alan, and I suppose the answer would have to take into account at the least the following points (not fully thought out here – just some initial thoughts:
[1] The actual geographical area to which Jeremiah was referring
[2] The symbolic reference, if there is one, in Jer. 31:40
[3] Jeremiah's intention in that text
[4] If there was an intention to refer to eternal outcomes, whether this intention is validated in the NT
[1] We are in the right geographical area; Jeremiah is talking about Jerusalem's boundaries. The passage around v40 reads (no particular version):
quote:
“Look! A time approaches,” says Yahweh, “when the city will be rebuilt for Yahweh, from Hananel's Tower to the Corner Gate. The measuring line will go on from there to the Hill of Gareb and turn to Goah. The whole valley of corpses, ashes and all the terraced fields out to the Kidron Valley, up to the Horse Gate in the east will be sacred to Yahweh. The city will never again be torn down or destroyed.”
[2] The Hebrew word for the valley in v.40 is emeq [= עֵמֶק], which is not specific and which causes the Greek (LXX) translator of this verse some trouble, resulting some words being missed (i.e., 'The whole valley of corpses, ashes and') and another transliterated ('fields' becomes asaremoth). It may be that the translator was working another Hebrew version here, but in any event it doesn't assist in pinpointing a reference. However, given the other geographical references, it's not unlikely that this valley is one and the same as Gehenna. Clearly Jeremiah wants to make the point that this was a rubbish pit of a place.
[3] Does Jeremiah include in his intention here a reference to those punished to date, as it were? In other words, does the new, holy and extended Jerusalem that will belong to God include those who previously been punished by God?
[4] While the references to Gehenna are quite known in the NT, they still contain references to people being thrown out there after judgement.
Quick thoughts and not all answers!...
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Since I can't follow the sermon I was re-reading the lectionary passages this morning, and reading the surrounding verses.
And, I came upon Jer 31:40.
quote:
The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown ... will be holy to the Lord.
Now, I'm not usually one to get caught up on a single verse, much less a part of a single verse, but as I read it I was struck by a thought that refuses to leave me alone.
I'm very used to references to Gehenna, the valley outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burnt and the bodies of criminals dumped, as a description of Hell, the ultimate place of punishment for evil, a place abuot as unholy as one could think of.
The thought that struck me was, is this valley in Jeremiah 31 the same as Gehenna. And, if so what does it say about the popular portrayal of Gehenna/Hell as a place of ultimate un-holiness that it will be holy to the Lord?
The power of the Lord is such that He can redeem the most unredeemable, that He can make the most vile and filthy holy.
quote:
His blood can make the foulest clean,
His blood availed for me.
Can that amazing grace of His blood extend to making Hell itself clean?
I think That the valley of the sons of Hinnom is what it was originally. A place of burning rubbish but also where historically, the wicked kings of Judah notably Mannessah sacrificed their children or made them ( pass though the fire.)
I think Jeremiah is referring to the millennial kingdom when all of Jerusalem and it's surrounds will become the centre of Christ's theocratic administration of the Earth so, yes, it will change its geography. Elsewhere, scripture speaks of the hill on which Jerusalem sits becoming the chief of the mountains. I guess it was logical for Jesus, in his teaching, to use what would have been both a familiar sight, the burning of rubbish, and the history of the place to create a metaphor for Gehenna or the lake of fire.
However, to suggest that Jeremiah is predicting that hell will be eliminated is wishful thinking. The power of Jesus' blood cleanses heaven ( see Hebrews where he takes his blood into the holy place made without hands). Heaven needed cleansing as a consequence of Satan's fall, but nowhere does scripture teach that Jesus' blood availed in hell, although we are told in Ephesians that he did visit the depths of the earth, perhaps before his resurrection, perhaps after.
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Can that amazing grace of His blood extend to making Hell itself clean?
On the other hand, what about the very last verse of Isaiah (66:24) - in the context of the New Jerusalem - which has long bothered me:
quote:
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Planeta Plicata
Shipmate
# 17543
|
Posted
It's worth keeping in mind Robert Wilken's caution (in the context of Second Isaiah, but relevant here as well) that it's "easy to forget that he is speaking of a real city, not a celestial haven." That's especially the case where, as here, the geographical features in question are identified with some particularity. In Jan Jozef Simon's book on Jerusalem in the Old Testament, he points out that "[t]he language and the terms used are thoroughly concrete and the topographical features enumerated are mostly known also from other sources. The description makes a complete tour of the city, with the exception of the temple-quarter already 'holy unto Jahweh'."
In the most straightforward reading, the prophet is predicting the restoration of the actual city, with boundaries extending far beyond the city walls in his own day – including places like the Hinnom Valley and the Kidron stream that would have been thought pretty unpleasant at the time.
Posts: 53 | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
|
Posted
It may be that the act of clinging to foulness in the presence of God's holiness is itself precisely what is described as the "fires of Hell." Or so I understand it.
--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Planeta Plicata:
In the most straightforward reading, the prophet is predicting the restoration of the actual city, with boundaries extending far beyond the city walls in his own day – including places like the Hinnom Valley and the Kidron stream that would have been thought pretty unpleasant at the time.
Yes, that's clear. And, obviously, the place to start in understanding the text. And, it's quite possible that that's also the place to end as well.
But, as I was ignoring the preacher and reading the pasage, the thought latched onto my brain as an extension beyond that. So, the restoration of Jerusalem becomes a pre-figuring of the restoration of the whole of creation in Christ. That's a fairly standard interpretation. It was the fact that this included the nasty rubbish tips of the city that I found intriguing. The same nasty rubbish tips that would later come to be used as a metaphor for the place of torment for evildoers (sometimes translated as Hell in English Bibles).
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, as I was ignoring the preacher and reading the pasage, the thought latched onto my brain as an extension beyond that. So, the restoration of Jerusalem becomes a pre-figuring of the restoration of the whole of creation in Christ.
From a Christian perspective, at least, isn't that the only way to read the Old Testament, that is, by looking for Christ. One could also argue that the prophesy was imperfectly fulfilled after the Jews returned from the Baylonian exile (the pre-figuring you talk of) and is perfectly fulfilled in Christ when he returns to judge the living and the dead.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
jrw
Shipmate
# 18045
|
Posted
Doesn't all rubbish (one way or another) eventually get recycled?
Posts: 522 | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
Although it is a tangent: no, rubbish does not all get recycled, or not in a timely way. Modern civilization manufactures items out of aluminum and hard plastics which last roughly forever.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
My view of this focuses on the word holy as meaning 'different' or 'separate', not holy in the sense of pure and clean.
This would make the whole area 'off limits' rather than lovely and washed or purified.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Is holy "off limits" though? Off limits for those who are impure, maybe. But, in Christ, do we not have access to the Holy of Holies?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Is holy "off limits" though? Off limits for those who are impure, maybe. But, in Christ, do we not have access to the Holy of Holies?
No, we access to God - which is what the curtain denied us.
The place is that is holy to God is a place that he has reserved as separate and not to be touched. We wouldn't want access to it.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
