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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sins of Our Fathers
Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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So, Jacob and Joseph have been in the lectionary lately, and as I was hearing these stories again, even preaching on the relationship between Jacob and Laban something struck me.

Every single one of these chosen men of God most flagrantly disregarded the Torah. And in many places it's not explicitly criticized.

So, I suspect that this isn't new to anyone else here, but it struck me. How is it that these men are blessed and favored by God, the same God who laid down The Law? I was talking to a friend about this and she noted that it was as sign of God's mercy, that God is so tolerant of our sins. But this isn't just tolerance, these men are lionized and heroized for their antics, blessed even!

What are we to make of this?

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ad Orientem
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# 17574

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Er, there's a good four hundred years between Jacob and the law of Moses.
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649

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It seems to me that we must be able to see that God's servants are not perfect. God alone is perfect, and his perfection is seen in a human being only in Jesus.

It means that there's hope for all of us.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Adam.

Like as the
# 4991

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With a few exceptions, Genesis and the first half of Exodus don't hold their heroes to "later" standards. This has always seemed to me at least an attempt to not write anachronistically.

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog

Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I'm not sure how familiar you are with the whole of the Bible, but most of the time, we don't get labels like "this is bad" or "here is an example of evil." More often we get a statement of exactly what happened and any commentary is saved for a summary statement (like the end of Judges): "In those days, there was no king in Israel, and everyone did what appeared right in his own eyes." It sounds mild enough, unless you've just read the whole freakin' book all the way through, with its increasingly horrible examples of how human decision-making goes wrong. At which point it becomes an ominously understated judgement on everything that went before. Seriously powerful.

So don't assume that Abraham or Isaac or Jacob are getting a free ride for the crap they did, let alone praised for it. There's a reason why we get shown all THREE of the "she's not my wife, she's my sister!" liar episodes. By the third, I'm clutching my head and attempting not to shout "asshole!" at the patriarchs. (You'll notice that there's some justification for Abraham's first screw-up, even if it's only fear and clear evidence that the king wants his wife; but by the time of Isaac, not only has he had two episodes to learn from (and doesn't), but nobody's even interested in his wife and she's able to sit in a garden and flirt with him!)

Similarly, if you look at the literary structure of the Jacob stories, you see him cheating his brother twice, then going off to Laban and getting screwed over multiple times more. And Rebekah, who aided him in the cheating, sadly doesn't live to see her son come home again. "Why should I be bereaved of both of you in one day?" she asks, when she warns Jacob to flee because Esau is waiting for Isaac's (presumably close) death, when he will kill his brother as well. Sensible--except her own actions are now bereaving her of her favorite son, whom she will never see in life again.

Then there's Esau. While he comes in for a certain amount of judgement for despising his birthright, in the end he's the one who comes off as magnanimous--wealthy, successful, and willing to forgive his brother. IMHO he comes off as the most likable of the lot. I don't think that's an accident--I think the writer deliberately puts in this episode to serve as a foil for Jacob's own darkness.

In short, if you read the OT as a whole, and not as isolated passages, you can see that the moral judgement is there, and real, and serious; but God does us the courtesy of allowing us to infer it for ourselves, rather than spelling it out in every chapter.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Oops, bad me. Didn't answer the question!

What are we to make of this? IMHO, that God likes hard cases and deliberately seeks out the real ratbags just to show what he can do with them.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
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# 365

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
In short, if you read the OT as a whole, and not as isolated passages, you can see that the moral judgement is there, and real, and serious; but God does us the courtesy of allowing us to infer it for ourselves, rather than spelling it out in every chapter.

That's right.

Still, there is never any suggestion anywhere in the OT that destroying Israel's enemies (that is, anyone who stands in their way) is not the highest possible good. That information doesn't come until the New Testament, although it is increasingly hinted at in the prophets.

In the light of this, my view is that the Old Testament does not describe the history of a holy nation. Rather, it describes the history of an ordinary nation that could serve as a metaphor for the development of holiness in a nation or an individual. The history of Israel was deeply symbolic of holy things, but the individuals described were neither more or less holy than anyone else.

The miracle of the Bible is that God was able to take an ordinary nation, whose nature, history, and actions were similar to those of other nations of the era, and cause it to be recorded in a narrative that has the power to change the world.

What I find especially satisfying and interesting about seeing it this way is that it explains the extraordinary power and magnitude of the miracles that are described. There was nothing so unusual or special about the Israelites that would justify the destruction of so many peoples who stood in their way, or that would cause God to ensure their survival no matter what. Taken literally and looked at objectively it makes God complicit in the self-centered and immoral ambitions of that nation - ambitions that were little different from those of any nation.

The source of the power behind the miracles, however, is that this narrative would actually play a central role in the salvation of the human race. Since there is no time in the spiritual realm, the overwhelmingly powerful goodness of humanity's future salvation was retroactively applied to its Old Testament symbols. This is how divine power, channeled through the hosts of heaven, was miraculously brought to bear at so many Old Testament junctures.

To me, this completely explains these miracles, miracles that seemingly served no immediate moral or spiritual purpose but only advanced the worldly goals of an apparently randomly selected ancient tribe.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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Another way to pose the question in the opening post is to inquire about David, who comes after the Law. There is a lot to choose from in his story, but 2 Sam 11 & 12 is a good place. Here we have King David: indolently stays away from battle, Pervy Peeping Tom, one who perhaps coerces women into sex, adulterer, liar, conspirer to murder, actual murderer in a joint enterprise way ("you have killed him with the sword of the Ammorites"). Yet, another illustrious ancestor in Jesus' family tree.

But, this is also the man who pens Psalm 51 in repentence.

I think Lamb Chopped gets it in two: "God likes hard cases and deliberately seeks out the real ratbags just to show what he can do with them."

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I think Lamb Chopped gets it in two: "God likes hard cases and deliberately seeks out the real ratbags just to show what he can do with them."

We are all hard cases. Two related thoughts.

1. If those OT folks (and NT folks) messed up so badly and yet God loves them, there's hope for me and you.

2. Sometimes I wonder if God allows every kind of evil by human hands so eventually when we see God's forgiveness of "even that, and that, and wow God wholly loves even the person who did THAT!" we will finally, completely, forever be amazed at God and finally actually believe he loves "even me."

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Er, there's a good four hundred years between Jacob and the law of Moses.

I'm amazed nobody picked this up!

You can't accuse people of breaking a law that hadn't come into existence yet!

Jacob and all those people before Moses, were not in that covenant with God that revealed God as YHWH and was given the Torah. They therefore never broke it!

As far as David was concerned, yes he repented but there were consequences and he was punished in this life for his transgression of the Torah.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:


What are we to make of this?

1)That God saved his chosen people before the giving of the Law. So it makes a good case against those people that say the Law is strictly necessary for salvation. (Which Paul picks up on and runs with of course - e.g. Abraham was saved through faith).

2) That God's will can still be executed through shmucks.

3) That the only really righteous patriarch seems to be Noah whom God saved before he destroyed the world.

4) That God promised he would not destroy the world again after Noah so he had to work with what he had (shmucks and all)

5) We have to get over our Sunday school idealisation of the patriarchs.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Oops, bad me. Didn't answer the question!

What are we to make of this? IMHO, that God likes hard cases and deliberately seeks out the real ratbags just to show what he can do with them.

Disagree.

God doesn't like hard cases and does not deliberately seek them out. S?He just has to work with what S/He has.

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a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

You can't accuse people of breaking a law that hadn't come into existence yet!

But you can say Jesus' atonement extends backwards in time?

If you believe Jesus' salvation extends backwards and forwards through time (bizarre idea), I don't see why you can't apply the same principle to the Law.

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a theological scrapbook

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

You can't accuse people of breaking a law that hadn't come into existence yet!

But you can say Jesus' atonement extends backwards in time?

If you believe Jesus' salvation extends backwards and forwards through time (bizarre idea), I don't see why you can't apply the same principle to the Law.

The OP talked about breaking the Torah - a very specific set of commandments that came out of the Mosaic covenant.

Jacob may have broken many of God's standards that were eventually codified but he did not break Torah as given to Moses.

Anyway, Torah was not given to make people righteous, it is the outworking of election and covenant. It is there to reveal what is God's will and then provide atonement.

Whatever 'laws' Jacob broke they were covered by the will of Go revealed at the time to him. That he was still shown mercy has nothing to do with Torah but the eternal grace of God. The retrospective atonement that Christ provided was not the remedy for the breaking of Torah, it was the remedy for the Fall.

Therefore, to address the OP Jacob was used by God and treated graciously despite his Adamic nature, not through the breaking of the Mosaic Torah.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Anyway, Torah was not given to make people righteous, it is the outworking of election and covenant. It is there to reveal what is God's will and then provide atonement..

Agreed

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

The retrospective atonement that Christ provided was not the remedy for the breaking of Torah, it was the remedy for the Fall.

What was the Law if not a remedy for the fall, to reveal God's will and provide atonement?

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

Therefore, to address the OP Jacob was used by God and treated graciously despite his Adamic nature, not through the breaking of the Mosaic Torah.

Well God can't be gracious if God has yet to reveal what God's will IS. You can't be condemned if you don't know what you've done wrong.

God just has to work with what he has unless he wants to wipe them all out again like he did with Noah.

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a theological scrapbook

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That the only really righteous patriarch seems to be Noah whom God saved before he destroyed the world.

Ah, those flawed heros.

Noah seems to have been guilty at least once of falling-down drunkenness.
quote:
Gen. 9:20-28:
Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked….

And, what's up with that hungover, generation-skipping curse? What did Canaan do wrong? Really. I think I'm feeling the need to scratch that persistent Marcionite itch. Somebody get me some Thomas Jefferson scissors so I can fix that Holy Writ.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Yeah, that pisses me off too.

I keep reminding myself that just because hungover Noah cursed him does not mean God endorsed it.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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I think Ham's sin was not seeing his father naked, but telling his two brothers about it.

There have been occasions when I have accidentally seen someone naked. I immediately look away and don't tell anyone.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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I agree, though I'd add that he appears to have had some bad motivation for it ("Hey, isn't Dad an idiot?" or something). A normal decent person sees somebody drunk and naked and grabs a blanket to cover them. He doesn't go out and start telling the world so they can gawk too.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I think Ham's sin was not seeing his father naked, but telling his two brothers about it.

There have been occasions when I have accidentally seen someone naked. I immediately look away and don't tell anyone.

Moo

The strong reaction has puzzled me - what would it take to get one of you parents to curse your own child with an intended perpetual curse?

I am not from am honor culture, I don't understand killing your own daughter but we see it in today's news often, and within that mindset what Moo said may well be correct.

Being from my culture where permanent outrage against your own takes a lot more than a moment of mockery, I've wondered if "saw him naked" was a cultural euphemism the way "know" can mean "have sexual intercourse with." But I live in a sex-obsessed culture, not surprising my wondering wanders that direction. Moo's proposal probably makes more sense.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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The man was probably still half-drunk and certainly feeling like crap. I doubt it has anything to do with honor culture but everything to do with being angry and stupid.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
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Would the side/related question of the nature of blessings and curses in the OT (mainly from parents/fathers) be more of a Kerygmania or a Purgatory thread?

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Would the side/related question of the nature of blessings and curses in the OT (mainly from parents/fathers) be more of a Kerygmania or a Purgatory thread?

As long as it's about what's in the OT, it belongs here.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged


 
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