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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Call me jaded and cynical, but I fail to see how such an event could be anything but a Big Lie (because the Church as an institution is far from what I'd call "inclusive"); or smug ("Hey, look at us! We don't beat you with sticks any more! Aren;t we good girls and boys?")

Other minorities' mileages may vary.

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The national church, sure.

But we can celebrate those parish churches which refuse to follow the national church's line. To assure people that we won't refuse the Holy Communion.

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Also, in re this:

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Originally posted by leo:
The national church, sure.

But we can celebrate those parish churches which refuse to follow the national church's line. To assure people that we won't refuse the Holy Communion.

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It is most emphatically NOT the policy of the Church of England, or of the Roman Catholic Church for that matter, to refuse Communion to any of those people with whom Inclusive Church is primarily concerned. I am almost entirely certain that the Pope himself would not refuse communion to a lay Roman Catholic who happened to be gay, or who disagreed with the Church's teachings on the ordination of women (and that was as true in Benedict's time as it is under Francis, despite the attempt of the media to draw larger contrasts between their respective pontificates than can yet be conclusively demonstrated). And I know that either of the current English Archbishops would. In fact, I can't recall the last time I heard of anyone being denied communion in an Anglican church.*

*Okay, that's not true, I did once see a priest who blessed a man rather than give him the host; the man proceeded to make a big fuss about this and claimed it was because he was homeless, but I suspect that the real reasons were that he had walked in halfway through the Eucharistic prayer and was very visibly drunk. I don't know if the priest (who was old enough and of such a tradition that he probably believed strongly in fasting and careful preparation for all communicants) did the right thing or not.

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leo responded by saying:

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It is most emphatically NOT the policy of the Church of England, or of the Roman Catholic Church for that matter, to refuse Communion to any of those people with whom Inclusive Church is primarily concerned.

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But it happens, especially in some conservative evangelical and charismatic churches. (Some use the Prayer Book line in the Exhortation about 'notorious sinners')

LGCM now has a policy of celebrating Communion at all its national and regional events because that is the only chance some people have of receiving the sacrament.

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Originally posted by Try:
For one thing, I think that if it had happened often, someone would have complained to the media and there would have been a big stink.

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Originally posted by VDMA:
O.P., do you mean:

"denying communion to those who openly practice LGBT lifestyle and push the Gay Agenda",

or,

"denying communion to those who identify as LGBT and struggle with it"?

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
VDMA, do you mean "LGBT and struggle with it" as in "I listen to homophobes who deny my inherent right to exist and it's destroyed my soul" or as in "OMG look at all these attractive people I really enjoy my God-given sexuality in healthy ways"?

Because I approve of the latter but the former need all the help we can give them as Christ's Body in the world.

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Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

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Originally posted by VDMA:
O.P., do you mean:

"denying communion to those who openly practice LGBT lifestyle and push the Gay Agenda",

or,

"denying communion to those who identify as LGBT and struggle with it"?

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I don't practice a lifestyle; I live my life. I wish it involved an awful lot more passionate loving sex with another man. I'll only ever push the gay agenda to the extent that I am utterly certain, as certain as I am of my own existence, that this is no barrier whatsover to God's love for me. My manifold perversity is; my alleged perversion is not. If you don't like that, tough.

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"Tough"? You sure are defensive about this. There's no reason get thorny the moment the subject comes up.

I, too, would like to "find love" with a man. I have fallen in love, in a very genuine way, before. There is one who I love now but cannot ever have, because of the choice I make to follow the Bible rather than my lusts. Even the straight man must follow the teaching of the Lord. Why should I be exempt because I'm a minority?

"I live my life" is the rallying cry of the individualist, the sentimentalist, and the man of pleasure. "Who are you to condemn me for living as I was born to live?", you might ask. Well, no one is born gay, but everyone is born into sin. God calls us precisely to live in ways that are [i]not[/] in accordance with our birth into sinfulness, selfishness, and worldliness. Engaging in gay sex is just another sin - nothing special, nothing to get prickly over.

There are no barriers to God's love, of course; that's the important thing. God has compassion on those who don't realize the mire they're stuck in, and on those who do realize but repent. Thank God for that, because none of us really understand the severity of sin. It doesn't mean there's no such thing as sin.

If a church is going to refuse holy communion to a man, it is because he is fornicating with other people against the commandment of God, not because the other people happen to be men. I should hope that vicars do the same for straight men who are having sex outside marriage. It's exactly the same sin.

Anyway, Anglicans are far too nice to to all this, so it's a moot point.

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Des Christen Herz auf Rosen geht, wenn's mitten unterm Kreuze steht.

Feel free to visit the Anglican Forums: http://forums.anglican.net/

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Originally posted by VDMA:

I, too, would like to "find love" with a man. I have fallen in love, in a very genuine way, before. There is one who I love now but cannot ever have, because of the choice I make to follow the Bible rather than my lusts. Even the straight man must follow the teaching of the Lord. Why should I be exempt because I'm a minority?

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All I can say is that I believe you will live to deeply regret this decision.

My SIL's father made the same decision as you for the same reasons. He ignored his sexuality, thought the Bible was telling him to do so, married and had six children. It was only when he was sixty that he realised how hard he'd made life for himself and his family. He had five years with his new partner, then died of a heart attack.

Three of his children are gay and three straight - all in committed relationships. I felt for him, his wife and his family. I know that, if her were a young man now he'd make very different choices - and of course I would not have my lovely SIL. But life as a Yorkshire farmer in those days did not allow for faithful gay Christians, sadly.

It does now. Don't waste such hard won freedom.

Sorry, rather off topic but close to my heart.

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Originally posted by Jane R:
Yes; if my vicar had refused me communion in those circumstances I could have complained to the bishop and the bishop would probably have done something about it (even if it was just wagging his finger at the vicar and saying 'Tut, tut.') LGBT people cannot expect the same level of support; if they are refused communion the bishop is likely to back the priest's decision.

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• The Archbishops - both York and Canterbury have their own websites and Twitter feeds? Most of which is not picked up by the media and what is picked up is usually partial and garbled.
• The Church of England website and Twitter feed? Ditto to media coverage.
• The local Dioceses?
• The local Deanery?
• The local parishes?

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Good post, Boogie. It's very sad to read these 'ex-gay' posters. I know a little bit about 'gay conversion' professionally, and it fills me with horror.

I thought your point about 'how hard he'd made life' is exact. If you deny your sexuality, you don't just swan through life - the toll on you and those around you can be very severe.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

At what level are you seeing the Church of England controlling publicity?

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Originally posted by VDMA:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
VDMA, do you mean "LGBT and struggle with it" as in "I listen to homophobes who deny my inherent right to exist and it's destroyed my soul" or as in "OMG look at all these attractive people I really enjoy my God-given sexuality in healthy ways"?

Because I approve of the latter but the former need all the help we can give them as Christ's Body in the world.

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I can't really reply to that post. You've worded my question in such a way that it's impossible for me to answer it without looking like a completely heartless bastard.

Christ preached repentance as much as He preached love and mercy. Read the Gospel of Matthew again with a view to how rude the Lord actually is to people who live in sin. He doesn't say one nice thing to anyone for about the first 10 chapters or so, and in the last few chapters it's almost constant teaching about judgment, Hell, sin, and evil.

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8:10-12 - When Jesus heard this, he was astonished. "Believe me," he said to those who were following him, "I have never found faith like this, even in Israel! I tell you that many people will come from east and west and sit at my table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven. But those who should have belonged to the kingdom will be banished to the darkness outside, where there will be tears and bitter regret."

8:13 - Then he said to the centurion, "Go home now, and everything will happen as you have believed it will." And his servant was healed at that actual moment.

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9:1-2 - So Jesus re-embarked on the boat, crossed the lake, and came to his own town. Immediately some people arrived bringing him a paralytic lying flat on his bed. When Jesus saw the faith of those who brought him he said to the paralytic, "Cheer up, my son! Your sins are forgiven."

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9:29 - Then he touched their eyes, saying, "You have believed and you will not be disappointed."

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0:40 - "Whoever welcomes you, welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me is welcoming the one who sent me.

10:41-42 - "Whoever welcomes a prophet just because he is a prophet will get a prophet's reward. And whoever welcomes a good man just because he is a good man will get a good man's reward. Believe me, anyone who gives even a drink of water to one of these little ones, just because he is my disciple, will by no means lose his reward."

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Originally posted by leo:
I won't repeat what I wrote in the thread referred to in the OP but will add that people have been told not to present themselves a the rail until they repented of their 'lifestyle.'

In one case, a gay couple still presented at the rail of their charismatic evangelical anglican church and the vicar performed an 'exorcism' without their request.

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There is a difference between "LGBT people" and "practicing" LGBT people. A bishop or priest refusing communion to a person who is gay and celibate would be a horrible evil deserving of scandal. This is all about fornication, adultery, and the commandment of God to love our neighbour, I think.

leo, These are all fairly neutral statements. Note that the Lord is responding to people who repent of their sins. There is no forgiveness of sins without repentance. He doesn't just go around willy-nilly touching everyone.

With regards to the actual Biblical standard: "sexual immorality" is often listed along with adultery as a sin to be repented of, so there must be something to it. Is it simply paedophilia? Bestiality? Homosexuality? (All verbs, actions) If it doesn't cover fornication, I'd be pretty surprised, given the sacredness of marriage. We know marriage is held as sacred in the Bible because it is the highest metaphor that the writers can use to describe both God's relationship with Israel, and Christ's relationship to His Church (His Bride, not His Groom, incidentally). They wouldn't use something "meh" to describe such cosmic connections. Since God constantly condemns Israel's faithlessness and whorish behaviour (i.e. Hosea), it stands to reason that sex outside marriage is condemned. Since marriage is between a man and a woman in the Bible, there can be no "healthy" sexual action outside marriage.

Sorry, lads. We all like to stand firm on what we think is right. I will do so, for the sake of my sinner's soul, and hopefully that others can be a little bit inspired.

MrsBeaky , thanks for the understanding and respect, sister in Christ. This is what I was talking about.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by VDMA:

I, too, would like to "find love" with a man. I have fallen in love, in a very genuine way, before. There is one who I love now but cannot ever have, because of the choice I make to follow the Bible rather than my lusts. Even the straight man must follow the teaching of the Lord. Why should I be exempt because I'm a minority?

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All I can say is that I believe you will live to deeply regret this decision.

My SIL's father made the same decision as you for the same reasons. He ignored his sexuality, thought the Bible was telling him to do so, married and had six children. It was only when he was sixty that he realised how hard he'd made life for himself and his family. He had five years with his new partner, then died of a heart attack.

Three of his children are gay and three straight - all in committed relationships. I felt for him, his wife and his family. I know that, if her were a young man now he'd make very different choices - and of course I would not have my lovely SIL. But life as a Yorkshire farmer in those days did not allow for faithful gay Christians, sadly.

It does now. Don't waste such hard won freedom.

Sorry, rather off topic but close to my heart.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
"Paedophilia, bestiality, homosexuality?"

Ah, the sight of that old triumvirate sends a bracing thrill through my old joints, and I think I hear the wind outside moan a little, in sympathy. It's fresh (not), it's brash, it's bollocks.

"Women are icky". Eh? No, they're wonderful, smart, grown-up, beautiful, adorable, sometimes dull, sometimes horny, but alive.

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Originally posted by VDMA:

I do not plan to deny my sexuality and get married. Women are icky. What I mean is that I wish to follow the Biblical pattern of the person who is not married: celibacy. I have my Christian friends; in the end, there is more joy and fellowship in close friends than in the passions of the flesh. That's what all this is about, after all.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by VDMA:

I do not plan to deny my sexuality and get married. Women are icky. What I mean is that I wish to follow the Biblical pattern of the person who is not married: celibacy. I have my Christian friends; in the end, there is more joy and fellowship in close friends than in the passions of the flesh. That's what all this is about, after all.

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Good, at least other people won't be affected by your choices.

I am sure it all sounds very interesting and holy now. But I stand by what I said, if you continue this route I believe you will live to bitterly regret it. Homosexuality is natural and normal, and pretty much accepted as such these days PTL. A couple of verses in the Bible possibly condemning it don't make such 'sacrifice' worthwhile imo. You can serve God and be sexually fulfilled.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Leo

Yes - I suspected that if there's a problem, individuals will either be asked not to present themselves for Communion, or will simply choose not to do so. The issue won't reach the Communion rail, where 'refusal often offends'.

One wonders why anyone in modern Britain would want to attend Communion at an church where they have a fundamental theological disagreement with the minister on this supposedly key issue. The whole point of diversity in the CofE - and of a diversity of alternative denominations to choose from - is surely that you don't need to find yourself in such an embarrassing situation!

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Originally posted by VDMA:
leo, These are all fairly neutral statements.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Jade

Yes, you have talked about your Sussex town. It sounds as though someone ought to have planted a more liberal church there.

I think a lot of us end up having to compromise when it comes to church life. Ironically, the current attention being given to the difficulties of gay people in the church should highlight the need for a greater diversity of church communities. If it has that outcome many people, both gay and straight, might benefit.

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A liberal Anglican church is unlikely to have blossomed given +Benn being our suffragan at the time There are lots of other places in the CoE where churchmanship is linked to geographic location though - some places are FiF hotspots, some places are strongly evangelical, etc etc. The CoE is diverse, yes, but not homogenised. Sometimes, you just have to make do with what's there. That's why the 'why don't you just find another church' thing is annoying, because it's very much an outsider's perspective on the CoE and not how it actually works in practice. How things 'should' be is not how they actually are.

Also yes, most people have to compromise at some level in church circles, but for straight people it's usually regarding how often Communion is or the music style, not whether or not they can openly be out as LGBT.

Speaking more generally, as a queer person I am deeply deeply uncomfortable by being told by straight people how I should experience church or having my lived experiences ignored.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Originally posted by VDMA:
"sexual immorality" is often listed along with adultery as a sin to be repented of <snip> If it doesn't cover fornication, I'd be pretty surprised, given the sacredness of marriage.

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Since God constantly condemns Israel's faithlessness and whorish behaviour (i.e. Hosea), it stands to reason that sex outside marriage is condemned.

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Since marriage is between a man and a woman in the Bible

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

The 'why don't you just find another church' thing is annoying, because it's very much an outsider's perspective on the CoE and not how it actually works in practice.
[...]
Speaking more generally, as a queer person I am deeply deeply uncomfortable by being told by straight people how I should experience church or having my lived experiences ignored.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Just out of interest, I'm curious as to how many here go to CoE churches that have out LGBT people in the congregation, and/or churches where sexuality issues come up. I'm out in life in general but given that sexuality issues just never come up in my church, and I don't have a significant other to talk about/introduce people to, most people in my church are not aware of my sexuality.

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Just out of interest, I'm curious as to how many here go to CoE churches that have out LGBT people in the congregation, and/or churches where sexuality issues come up. I'm out in life in general but given that sexuality issues just never come up in my church, and I don't have a significant other to talk about/introduce people to, most people in my church are not aware of my sexuality.

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You're a self-described Anglo-Catholic. Out of curiosity, is the church where you worship in that tradition and, if so, are you a relative newcomer?

Because Anglo-Catholicism and homosexuality go together like two things that go together (if you'll forgive the Baldrickism). In urban Anglo-Catholic churches (Inner London, Brighton, Oxford), gay men are often the majority. In suburban and village Anglo-Catholicism, they're likely to be a relatively visible minority.

How much sexuality is discussed seems to vary by generation. Even so, it's not been uncommon in MY 'lived experience' as a queer person and an Anglican to hear even relatively elderly Anglo-Catholic priests refer to 'parishes, like ours, with many gay men in the congregation'.

My impression is that AIDS went a long way toward bringing Anglo-Catholicism out of the closet (I know that I will be criticized for talking about things I didn't experience personally, which is true, but I've heard this from several people).

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Originally posted by VDMA:
Sorry, lads. We all like to stand firm on what we think is right. I will do so, for the sake of my sinner's soul, and hopefully that others can be a little bit inspired.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
A liberal Anglican church is unlikely to have blossomed given +Benn being our suffragan at the time

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
A liberal Anglican church is unlikely to have blossomed given +Benn being our suffragan at the time

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Didn't seem to have that effect in Brighton.

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at General Synod 2005, Dean Michael Burrows (now a bishop) stated that he regularly gives Holy Communion to parishioners in long-standing homosexual relationships

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Originally posted by ButchCassidy:

So I think Leo's famous 'examples' must be on the FiF end - I think it would sound too quaint to a Reform-ist.

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