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Source: (consider it) Thread: 8th Day: Heck
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Alright, this is an exploration as much as anything, I suppose.
But what of a board in which we can directly address a shipmate, but must also be civil?
Perhaps a shipmate has a behaviour, a theme; something which one feels would be beneficial to address, but not in a mean way.
Yes, I know one is not required to be nasty in Hell. But there is no control over the other participants and many Shipmates have this impression regardless.
And PMs have their own issues and do not serve the community in the same way.
I do understand this would be Hell to host, but what are your thoughts?

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002

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Enormous potential to harm the person you feel has an issue to be addressed and very little chance of doing good.

If YOU have an issue take it to hell, you have no right to "give" other poster issues. Don't undermine/patronise/attempt psychological counselling or whatever on the ship . (I know that's probably not your intent but I can't see how else such a board would develop).

Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Enormous potential to harm the person you feel has an issue to be addressed and very little chance of doing good.

If YOU have an issue take it to hell, you have no right to "give" other poster issues. Don't undermine/patronise/attempt psychological counselling or whatever on the ship . (I know that's probably not your intent but I can't see how else such a board would develop).

Not at all what I meant. I am not attempting to patronise anyone.
Let me phrase this differently. Say Shippie X has behaved in a manner that Shippie Y wishes to address. Not what they say, but how.
Yes, it could be taken to Hell. But many on the Ship would assume animus and this could end the conversation. Even should both the caller and the callee agree to be civil, no one else is required to do so in Hell.
My intent is to broker an understanding before animosity occurs. We have posters enough who dislike each other.
So in Heck, Shippie Y could say to Shippie X, "Hey Mate, I think it is possible that your tone/words/assumptions are making Topic Gobbledygook a bit difficult. May we discuss this?"

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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What's wrong with a PM?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Let's use a particular fault of mine as an example. I have a tendency to throw in short attempts at humour into a thread. Say I do this enough that it distracts others without breaking any rules. You wish to address this and send me a PM.
I think you are just too sensitive, ignore your PM and continue the behaviour.
Or, regardless of how polite you may be, I take it as rude. Or as condescending.
In Heck, multiple participants might let me know that your view is shared and I might take it more seriously.
And packaging matters. Hell is wrapped in sandpaper with warning stickers and a PM is a plain, brown wrapper with naught on it.
Heck would have a label on the tin which stated a more gentle, specific set of rules.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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If you have a dispute with someone you can still address it in Hell and do so civilly. If other posters decide to weigh in and flame one side or the other, neither side has to engage with them.

If you started a Heck thread there's no guarantee that a mirror thread wouldn't be started in Hell by a member of the peanut gallery taking up one side of the argument on someone's behalf, and other posters weighing in with equal enthusiasm on the other. You might then feel obliged to join in the Hell thread if only to correct accusations, which would involve you in two threads on the same topic simultaneously.

If you decided not to join in the Hell thread and ignore it, then you are equally capable of ignoring the peanut gallery on the Hell thread that would presumably have been started by either you or your opponent if the Heck board didn't exist.

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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You want a passive-aggressive version of hell? Please no.

I get enough of that at home. I come to the ship to escape it.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Passive aggressive? I am proposing a board which mimics how you might speak to someone face to face. Seriously, but civilly. How is that passive aggressive?

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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How much demand do you think there would be for this? Enough to justify an entire board for three months?

I think it would be a horrible idea (sorry). People could suddenly find themselves called to Heck for all sorts of reasons, having never dreamed that their lack of punctuation or some such was annoying the hell out of someone else. I can imagine that some people would be really taken aback, shocked, upset or quite angry to realize that for months someone else had been secretly fuming about the way they posted and had decided to take it on themselves to correct them.

In the course of everyday life we all find other people annoying on a minor level from time to time, and people's habits and mannerisms can become irritating. Mostly, for the sake of social cohesion, we live and let live unless it reaches a certain point. If you really can't stand someone's posting style, PM them and make their day. I think the idea of a Heck board would do nothing to improve relations amongst shipmates - quite the reverse.

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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There is no way, IME, to begin an exchange with 'I don't want to be critical, but...' and not have the other party feel criticized. Anyone who doesn't immediately go on the defensive is probably so self-aware as to be unlikely to be the cause of upset in the first place.

We have had Hell threads where posters have turned up in droves to tell - often civilly - a particular Shipmate that it's not what they say, it's the way they say it, to zero effect, other than hardening their conviction of being Right But Persecuted.

Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Passive aggressive? I am proposing a board which mimics how you might speak to someone face to face. Seriously, but civilly. How is that passive aggressive?

Doing it in front of other people, staged as an intervention, is NOT, I suspect, how you would do it in real life if you were looking for a good outcome. Such conversations usually happen behind closed doors in private.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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We all have our quirky crazy ways.

It makes us who we are - I don't think these things need 'addressing' at all!

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I remember PMing a person whose blog was on a black background with small white writing, few line breaks.

It was simply terrible for anyone who was dyslexic, Irlens, visually inpaired etc.

I didn't say that - I put it very gently.

He fumed back at me.

Even small critisisms can hurt the sensitive, I'm afraid.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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We have Hell, PM's and the "Offensenselessness" thread in The Circus. Aren't they enough?

There is also C5: 'Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended'. If more took notice of that some Hell threads wouldn't happen and I expect some suspensions and even the odd planking could have been avoided.

I see a danger of Heck being as unrestricted as Hell, but lacking the retaliatory aspect which, more than the guidelines, those commandments that remain or the Hosts, makes Hell work.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
There is no way, IME, to begin an exchange with 'I don't want to be critical, but...' and not have the other party feel criticized.
I am not saying that it shouldn't be inferred that there is no criticism. There is. But tone matters and the idea is to have a space that at least begins with the impression of less animus.
------
It's not that I thought this idea would be flawless, quite the opposite. Which is why I started with exploration instead of fleshing out a proposal.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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If you are going to criticise somebody (rather than the issue under discussion), then not doing so in Hell suggests you are not willing to take the heat that may come in response.

The environment of Hell is a great way of giving one pause for thought before launching out against someone else in public, and offers an immediate (if blunt) assessment of whether one is right or wrong to do so, adding a degree of equity.

I can't see your suggestion doing anything that Hell or PMs can't achieve better already.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If you are going to criticise somebody (rather than the issue under discussion), then not doing so in Hell suggests you are not willing to take the heat that may come in response.

It is not about what I can take. I am fine in Hell. I like Hell and value its purpose.
I have witnessed interactions in which one or more participants reactions seemed unduly influenced by the venue as much as the subject.
What I am suggesting is that managing tone might be beneficial.
The implication that I would suggest this out of cowardice is a bit odd. I had though my reputation here was more of pugnaciousness than timidity.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Trouble is, if you hit a hot button for that person (and those are wildly unpredictable), the simple fact that you've done it in public means they are very likely to reply to you in Hell proper. We'd see a bunch of OPs with nothing but a note below: transferred to Hell.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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The reason I see it as a pas-agg version of hell is that I see it as trying to fill a gap that doesn't seem to exist.

If I was to say "Stop being a shitbag", I will take it to hell. If I want to say "I am not sure that expresses your position properly" I will probably use a PM. I am not sure where Heck would fit in, unless it was to say "I find your attitude disturbing", which would end up as a pas-agg discussion by trying to find a line that is not Hell-worthy, but needs a thread itself.

If it happens, it happens. I don't expect that I would use it, or respond to anyone who called me there. If I don't see a place for it, I am sure many others don't either. I don't mind if it does, but I suspect that usage will be limited.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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"You" in my post was a general "you", not a personal "you"; sorry about the ambiguity.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But tone matters and the idea is to have a space that at least begins with the impression of less animus.
------

I've been criticized on the ship for both, "It's not what you say it's the way you say it," and for, "tone." Often enough so that I probably think this thread is about me. It hasn't improved me because I don't really know what they're talking about. In particular, "tone" on a message board seems, to me, to be in the ear of the reader.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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This idea was not about any particular person. If it were only one person here, I would not have proposed the idea.
After more careful observation of interactions here and other forums, I wearily conceded the futility of this concept.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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You're a good sport, LilBuddha, I've always thought so.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged


 
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