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Source: (consider it) Thread: Honesty in politics
Raptor Eye
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I am so cynical now that I switch off when the politicians start making promises before elections. ISTM that they say what they think we want to hear, try to outdo each other, then once in power they either drop the issues or delay them so that they can keep using the promises. Meanwhile, they do what they want to do regardless of how much or how little it represents the views of the people. Is this democracy at its finest?

Is it only me who longs for honesty in politics?

Am I wrong to think this way? Perhaps I should become more involved, rather than switching off.....

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Schroedinger's cat

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Yes be involved, but accept that the leaders of the major parties are cynical, manipulative liars.

What I have seen in the last couple of days from David Cameron has made my blood boil even more than usual. I have always considered him a pathetic weasaly scrotum, but he has gone down in my estimation even more.

I am involved in politics because I find so many of the voices that get heard to be vile, abusive and dangerous - they are damaging the remnants of democracy that we have in this country. They are seriously detrimental to the modern concept of government. I am not prepared to ignore this, so I am involved in a party whose membership has grown by 45% this year.

In the end, I don't believe that a cynical, manipulative approach is the only - or best - way to do politics. But the main parties have decided that this suits them better than honesty and morality.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What I have seen in the last couple of days from David Cameron has made my blood boil even more than usual. I have always considered him a pathetic weasaly scrotum, but he has gone down in my estimation even more.

Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.

[ 03. October 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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Albertus
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George Osborne has been horribly honest (apart from the usual ritual pretence that neoliberal market economics benefits everyone rather than just providing a mechanism for him and his mates to plunder the economy). Make no mistake, the enemy is in full view (and if that view had crosshairs on it I for one would not be sorry).
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quetzalcoatl
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Good point about Osbourne being honest, although I don't think he is really spelling out the full implications of his message.

But I am now very disillusioned with politics, and we groan when a politician comes on TV, as we know that they will spin a lot of bullshit.

I suppose it's a sad thing, but I tend now just to switch off. They just seem very alienated people to me, alienated from other people, from life, and so on.

Also I don't think they have much control really, which perhaps has a bad effect on them. They seem like puppets in a globalized economy.

I forgot to say that I have known two MPs quite well, one is my brother-in-law, and the other a guy I worked with. They are both quite intelligent, but also completely crass and unsocialized people. Maybe they are not typical.

[ 03. October 2014, 15:59: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Firenze

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If you wash your hands of politics, you can't complain of whose hands it falls into.

I'm afraid activism is the only answer. I speak as one who would as soon chew tinfoil as turn out on a damp autumn evening for a constituency party meeting. But it has to be done.

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Sipech
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Politicians will often mix some truth in with their less reliable assertions. The most believable part of Cameron's speech was when he said:
quote:
This party is the union for the young woman who wants an apprenticeship.For the teenagers who want to make something of their lives. This is who we resent.
Yet in any political discourse, confirmation bias is rife. If you support party X, then you are more likely to party X's assertions, and more inclined to disbelieve party Y's aspersions about party X.

It'd be nice if we could ban politicians from talking about other parties and get them to stand on their own policies rather than lean them against the failings of their predecessors and other opponents.

Alas, though, I fear not. The 2015 general election is likely to cause a greater amount of mud to be flung than ever before, and the next one after that will be worse still.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What I have seen in the last couple of days from David Cameron has made my blood boil even more than usual. I have always considered him a pathetic weasaly scrotum, but he has gone down in my estimation even more.

Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.
He has inherited Michael Heseltine's gift for locating the clitoris of the Conservative Party.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
If you wash your hands of politics, you can't complain of whose hands it falls into.

I'm afraid activism is the only answer. I speak as one who would as soon chew tinfoil as turn out on a damp autumn evening for a constituency party meeting. But it has to be done.

Well, first I would have to find a party which I liked. I used to be in the Labour Party but left. I did find the Scots independence campaign exciting, and there seemed to be lots of new young people involved. We thought if yes had won, we might move to Edinburgh, although it seems a bit cold!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.

He has inherited Michael Heseltine's gift for locating the clitoris of the Conservative Party.
[Killing me] [Killing me]

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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HCH
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Do you think politicians are actually less honest than other people, or do you think they are simply more in the public eye? Do you think politicians are more likely than other people to lie to themselves?
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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
What I have seen in the last couple of days from David Cameron has made my blood boil even more than usual. I have always considered him a pathetic weasaly scrotum, but he has gone down in my estimation even more.

Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.
Then I will not continue this discussion of politics anywhere other than hell.

--------------------
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Jane R
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You want honesty in politics? Here you go!
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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.

He has inherited Michael Heseltine's gift for locating the clitoris of the Conservative Party.
[Killing me] [Killing me]
I think he ended up on the winning side didn't he? Let me check... yes, he did. Bit of a chequered career I admit, but as part of the winning team.

Our orgasms are multiple!

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deano
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People don't want honesty in politics. They want to hear what they want to hear. The Conservative party gives them that. Blair did as well.

Millbore? Not so much. He doesn't exactly tell them what they want to hear as much as tell them what they want to hear with the voice of a Sixth former.

Honesty in politics? To quote the late, great Leo McGarry... "There are two things you don't want people to see how you make them; sausages and politics".

We say aspirational things, motivating things, hopeful things, things that may yet come to pass (sorry, re-reading Lord of the Rings!). That's what politics is.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Do you think politicians are actually less honest than other people, or do you think they are simply more in the public eye? Do you think politicians are more likely than other people to lie to themselves?

Well, I've only known two of them intimately, as I said above, and I would say of them, yes. They are both very immature and crass individuals, but as I said, maybe all the others are different!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Do you think politicians are actually less honest than other people, or do you think they are simply more in the public eye? Do you think politicians are more likely than other people to lie to themselves?

It's impossible to compare people regarding levels of dishonesty. Some 'other people' will be very honest, others very dishonest. Who would we compare them with? There's no such thing as average when applied to real people.

I think that at some point it becomes a game of deceit that they collude with. Perhaps they do lie to themselves too.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
[QUOTE]Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.

He has inherited Michael Heseltine's gift for locating the clitoris of the Conservative Party.
Not quite Quotes file, but
[Overused]

[Not quite proof read]

[ 03. October 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: balaam ]

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blog

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Enoch
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I'm not a socialist. It just neither persuades nor inspires me. That means I don't have the panacea of voting Labour even though they're crap, out of ideological loyalty to what they could stand for, used to stand for or a socialist might wish they stood for.

We've just had two party conferences. They were different but had one fundamental thing in common. They have both left me with less reason to vote for their parties than there were before. I'm sure plenty of other people would say the same.

One of them had a leader's speech which just happen to forget the economy. The other has said, 'Vote Conservative and you'll have less human rights, less protection against an arbitrary state'. As an inducement to vote Conservative that matches the one from 1997, 'Vote Conservative and you'll have fewer nasty employment rights and you won't have to have as much paid holiday'.

However, unlike Raptor Eye, I'm not surprised by any of this. Perhaps I've been around too long. There comes a time when one must mature. One of the things that means is that one stops expecting a collection of people who have been elected to be super-persons rather than ordinary people who happen to have been elected.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Funnily enough, the stuff Cameron has said recently has made me like him even more.

He has inherited Michael Heseltine's gift for locating the clitoris of the Conservative Party.
[Killing me] [Killing me]
I think he ended up on the winning side didn't he? Let me check... yes, he did. Bit of a chequered career I admit, but as part of the winning team.

Our orgasms are multiple!

*goes to bed with a smile on my face*
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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


However, unlike Raptor Eye, I'm not surprised by any of this. Perhaps I've been around too long. There comes a time when one must mature. One of the things that means is that one stops expecting a collection of people who have been elected to be super-persons rather than ordinary people who happen to have been elected.

I'm not surprised by it. I don't like it, I don't think it's right, and I won't accept that to be mature I should go along with it, as that will only perpetuate the system I hate.

I should stand up and do something about it, but I don't. I turn it off and hope it will change without my having to be involved. I don't expect super human beings, but I do want to be able to trust politicians. I want there to be someone I positively want to vote for next year. I will probably end up voting for one I dislike the least, or not voting at all. Then I will get what I deserve, and that also will perpetuate the system that I hate.

This could persuade me to get involved in politics, but as someone said earlier, that could only happen if I found a political party I could bring myself to be associated with.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Do you think politicians are actually less honest than other people, or do you think they are simply more in the public eye? Do you think politicians are more likely than other people to lie to themselves?

People lie for gain, people lie because they feel pressured, people lie because they wish to please, convince or coerce.
So, yes, politicians are more likely to lie.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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hatless

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I think we've got a really huge problem with politics. In particular, I don't see any chance that the politicians, parties and political systems that we have will be able to take the sort of long term, unpopular, transnational action that climate change requires.

There are a few other big problems, too. Dealing with the instabilities in the Middle East is clearly beyond politicians who only know how to bomb people and not how to talk to them. Economics also exposes politicians' powerlessness and ignorance. No one really knows what to do for the best, and parties simply follow policies that accord with the prejudices of their usual supporters. Immigration, which now ought to be thought of more simply as the movement of people, and seen as a feature of the modern world, also sends them into a tizz. It's an issue (when it is an issue) that clearly needs international responses, so in the UK it is a favourite with parties that want to withdraw from our main international involvement.

Politics looks increasingly unable to provide the sort of answers we increasingly need, and I'm not just saying this because I am at the age where you morph into an old curmudgeon - young people are even more disenchanted with politics.

Politicians have become followers, not leaders. We desperately need leadership.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Enoch
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Raptor Eye, having lived for some years in a country which was an absolute dictatorship, however uninspiring our lot may be, they're a lot better than the alternatives.

Perhaps this is a dangerous question, but can you see any other country whose politicians you'd rather have? I can't.

I can think of one - and I'm not saying who - that from a distance looks just about OK, but even with them, I don't know what I'd feel about them closer to.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... We desperately need leadership.

Do we? I can't read that without hearing the word Führerprinzip.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... We desperately need leadership.

Do we? I can't read that without hearing the word Führerprinzip.
Hitler was what Bonhoeffer called a misleader, basing his leadership on his own authority and on the wishes of his followers. A true leader, the only legitimate leader, has to lead others to responsibility and maturity, must be ready to disillusion people, and must remember that their authority is always penultimate.

It has its dangers, but I think we need leadership. I don't believe we will effectively tackle any large issues without it.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:


Our orgasms are multiple!

*goes to bed with a smile on my face*
Well, if you all are happy with self-stimulation...

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Economics also exposes politicians' powerlessness and ignorance.
Politics looks increasingly unable to provide the sort of answers we increasingly need, and I'm not just saying this because I am at the age where you morph into an old curmudgeon - young people are even more disenchanted with politics.

Politicians have become followers, not leaders. We desperately need leadership.

I think economic interests now prevail to such an extent that in the West, they threaten democracy. Wealth has always been a factor in getting into office and influencing those who are in office, but it now appears that politicians are utterly craven in their approach to commerce.

In short, politicians can be entirely honest and sincere but they can rarely deliver.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Yes be involved, but accept that the leaders of the major parties are cynical, manipulative liars.

What I have seen in the last couple of days from David Cameron has made my blood boil even more than usual. I have always considered him a pathetic weasaly scrotum, but he has gone down in my estimation even more.

I am involved in politics because I find so many of the voices that get heard to be vile, abusive and dangerous - they are damaging the remnants of democracy that we have in this country. They are seriously detrimental to the modern concept of government. I am not prepared to ignore this, so I am involved in a party whose membership has grown by 45% this year.

In the end, I don't believe that a cynical, manipulative approach is the only - or best - way to do politics. But the main parties have decided that this suits them better than honesty and morality.

So you have 29 members now instead of 20?

[Devil]

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Marvin the Martian

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Look, it's really quite simple. Politicians lie because people will vote for whoever tells them what they want to hear. If all the main parties were completely and unfailingly honest in everything they say, then I could create a new party that would tell the people what they want to hear and win the next election at a canter.

You want honesty? Start voting for it.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
George Osborne has been horribly honest .

Not so - he said that cuts would not affect disabled people' - but lots of disabled people have been taken off disability benefit and will have their other benefits frozen for two years.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Economics also exposes politicians' powerlessness and ignorance.
Politics looks increasingly unable to provide the sort of answers we increasingly need, and I'm not just saying this because I am at the age where you morph into an old curmudgeon - young people are even more disenchanted with politics.

Politicians have become followers, not leaders. We desperately need leadership.

I think economic interests now prevail to such an extent that in the West, they threaten democracy. Wealth has always been a factor in getting into office and influencing those who are in office, but it now appears that politicians are utterly craven in their approach to commerce.

In short, politicians can be entirely honest and sincere but they can rarely deliver.

Yes, I think in a globalized economy the multi-national companies are in charge, and there is very little that anybody can do about this.

In a sense, politicians have little power now. Any policy which infringes on the power of the multi-nationals will cause disruption in the markets. Politicians are left with the task of apportioning tax bribes and welfare cuts.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Raptor Eye, having lived for some years in a country which was an absolute dictatorship, however uninspiring our lot may be, they're a lot better than the alternatives.

Perhaps this is a dangerous question, but can you see any other country whose politicians you'd rather have? I can't.

I can think of one - and I'm not saying who - that from a distance looks just about OK, but even with them, I don't know what I'd feel about them closer to.

I'm all for diversity and adaptation, so that democracy in every place best reflects the needs and desires of the majority of the people living there, while protecting minorities to some extent.

Therefore, comparison between democracies becomes futile. In any case, whether or not we think that our own system is as bad as someone else's, this should not leave us complacent or ready to perpetuate its failings.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Alicïa
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I am very cynical about politics due to a stark realisation that it seems that politicians and political parties just do what they percieve it takes to get elected or stay elected and use short term strategies to that end instead of what is best for their constituencies/districts/the nation.

I see that also as dishonest because there is no long term strategy to fix the problems and there never seems to be any long term strategy, just outdoing each other.

I do long for honesty in politics and I don't know what it would take to change it but the current system is broken. I don't know if that really addresses the OP or not, except that is where I see the dishonesty stems from.

[ 04. October 2014, 10:45: Message edited by: Alicïa ]

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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness

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Kwesi
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Though in order for an untruth to work successfully the perpetrator must tell the truth sufficiently often for the deceit to carry credibility, honesty may be a virtue that is unsufficiently evident in the pronouncements of politicians. Such integrity, however, is not the only virtue one looks for in a politician. A competent politician should also have courage, fortitude, the capacity to mobilise support, foresight, knowledge, competence and wisdom, to mention but a few. He should also, as Machiavelli reminds us, appear virtuous.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Hitler was what Bonhoeffer called a misleader, basing his leadership on his own authority and on the wishes of his followers. A true leader, the only legitimate leader, has to lead others to responsibility and maturity, must be ready to disillusion people, and must remember that their authority is always penultimate.

It has its dangers, but I think we need leadership. I don't believe we will effectively tackle any large issues without it.

There's something profoundly unhealthy and sinister about the hunger for leadership, whether to be a leader or to be led. And very few people in human history have anything even approaching the moral calibre to exercise that sort of leadership.

This seems to be what God thinks about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl
In a sense, politicians have little power now. Any policy which infringes on the power of the multi-nationals will cause disruption in the markets.

O, the multinationals again. I hear a ghostly conspiracy theory riding through the sky.

If the multinationals were really in charge, would the Middle East be in such a mess? The very existence of ISIS proves they aren't.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


If the multinationals were really in charge, would the Middle East be in such a mess? The very existence of ISIS proves they aren't.

That conflict helps to keep the price of oil high. So long as the conflict is contained it's good for oil interests and the OPEC states.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... We desperately need leadership.

Do we? I can't read that without hearing the word Führerprinzip.
We don't normally violate Godwin's on page 1. Thanks for playing.
Down here in Oz, people have been whinging about the lack of conviction politicians for ages. It looks like we've got one in our current PM. In all honesty, I cannot remember someone more openly committed to a conservative ideological position in leadership of my country. He wants to make us co-pay for every doctor's appointment, even with national public health (Medicare). He wants to make the unemployed wait six months for the dole, to deregulate university fees and to cut funding to the sector, and of course to turn back the boats, ensuring asylum seekers are not allowed entry into this country. He may have conviction, but he's broken heaps of pre-election policies and promises.
Here's what John Oliver made of him.
So, if you want conviction, be careful what you wish for.

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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quetzalcoatl
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Enoch wrote:

O, the multinationals again. I hear a ghostly conspiracy theory riding through the sky.

If the multinationals were really in charge, would the Middle East be in such a mess? The very existence of ISIS proves they aren't.


I don't get your logic - why does the Middle East mess show that multi-nationals are not in control? Do you think that ISIS are funded by local charities?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

You want honesty? Start voting for it.

To simply outline one issue would take longer than the sum of the attention span of typical voters. Add a flash of tit* and you'll get a few more minutes.
Then, when you give a real timeline and hardship examples, you lose the few hanginging on.

There are few real problems solved quickly, no universal guarantee if a fix and real disagreement about the path to get there.
If it weren't for inertia, we'd be even more fucked than we are.

*Bird, breast or Jeremy Clarkson

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... I don't get your logic - why does the Middle East mess show that multi-nationals are not in control? Do you think that ISIS are funded by local charities?

I've no idea who is funding ISIS. Have you? But to imagine that the standard multi-national culprits are is fantasy land. It's in their interests to have the Middle East run by tame regimes who give them tax breaks and full of happy peons working drilling rigs and behaving themselves.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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TurquoiseTastic

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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Do you think politicians are actually less honest than other people, or do you think they are simply more in the public eye? Do you think politicians are more likely than other people to lie to themselves?

It's impossible to compare people regarding levels of dishonesty. Some 'other people' will be very honest, others very dishonest. Who would we compare them with? There's no such thing as average when applied to real people.

I think that at some point it becomes a game of deceit that they collude with. Perhaps they do lie to themselves too.

My personal opinion is that politicians in the UK are, by and large, better, more honest, generally more noble people than the average. They are held - rightly - to a much higher standard than the rest of us. They have to make more difficult, more important decisions than the average person normally has to do, certainly those of them in government. These decisions are often of the type where any possible choice will have bad consequences that others without responsibility can point at and criticise savagely without being obviously unjust. These savage criticisms of policy may be justified. But the sneering, oh-these-people-are-so-awful-and-untrustworthy cynicism is, I think, really uncalled for.

If you really think politicians are so awful WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT? You should be involved in politics yourself. The moment you have any power - if not before - other people will try to shoot you down too.

The worst thing about political cynicism is that it drives good people away from politics. They get the idea that "politics is no career for a decent person". Obviously this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I also think we should restore the idea of "respecting the office". You don't have to agree with everything a minister says in order to treat them with respect and civility. The Paxman/Humphries approach makes me sick - I find I have to switch such interviews off. If that is how we treat politicians we have only ourselves to blame when we are treated to bland, arse-covering politico-speak - it is a survival tactic.

I think it is we, the people, who are primarily to blame for flaws in the political culture. I think most politicians are better than we deserve. We should be down on our knees thanking God that things are not in a worse state.

Seriously.

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Sioni Sais
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Here's a piece from Deutsche Welle, Germany's overseas broadcaster, on how ISIS is financed.

However it's done, it's well-off. We're talking about billions of dollars (other currencies are available).

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

One off them had a leader's speech which just happen to forget the economy. The other has said, 'Vote Conservative and you'll have less human rights, less protection against an arbitrary state'. As an inducement to vote Conservative that matches the one from 1997, 'Vote Conservative and you'll have fewer nasty employment rights and you won't have to have as much paid holiday'.

.. and additionally was economically illiterate in terms of totally uncosted tax reductions.
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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Look, it's really quite simple. Politicians lie because people will vote for whoever tells them what they want to hear. If all the main parties were completely and unfailingly honest in everything they say, then I could create a new party that would tell the people what they want to hear and win the next election at a canter.

You want honesty? Start voting for it.

True. Turning to history, look at Walter Mondale in 1984. In his acceptance speech for the Democratic nomination for President (running against incumbent Ronald Reagan), Mondale stated: "Mr. Reagan will raise taxes. I will raise taxes. He won't tell you. I just did." All of that was the absolute truth. And he lost 49 out of 50 States in the election. And, in fact, Reagan did raise taxes. Even though he lied and said he wouldn't.

Vote for honesty? If you are confronted with two politicians: one says he/she won't raise taxes and the other says he/she will raise taxes, who do you vote for? The honest one or the one selling you a fantasy? As the Reagan-Mondale election showed, fantasy wins out.

If you want truth-telling politicians, vote for them even though they are telling you things you don't want to hear. Because, frankly, most of us don't want to hear the truth. If somebody comes and tries to tell us the truth, we are far more likely to crucify him. There is historical precedent for it.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... I don't get your logic - why does the Middle East mess show that multi-nationals are not in control? Do you think that ISIS are funded by local charities?

I've no idea who is funding ISIS. Have you? But to imagine that the standard multi-national culprits are is fantasy land. It's in their interests to have the Middle East run by tame regimes who give them tax breaks and full of happy peons working drilling rigs and behaving themselves.
Well, you elegantly quote-mined my original post, where I said that in a globalized economy, (the bit you carefully omitted), the multi-nationals are in control, not the politicians. Thus, if you want them to invest in your country, it's incumbent on you to provide what they want, e.g. low corporation tax, low wages, weak trade unions, high executive pay, with a bonus culture, and other perks. If you don't, they will just fuck off somewhere else.

If you disagree with that, are you saying that the politicians do control the globalized economy? How do they do that?

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Dark Knight

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Look, it's really quite simple. Politicians lie because people will vote for whoever tells them what they want to hear. If all the main parties were completely and unfailingly honest in everything they say, then I could create a new party that would tell the people what they want to hear and win the next election at a canter.

You want honesty? Start voting for it.

True. Turning to history, look at Walter Mondale in 1984. In his acceptance speech for the Democratic nomination for President (running against incumbent Ronald Reagan), Mondale stated: "Mr. Reagan will raise taxes. I will raise taxes. He won't tell you. I just did." All of that was the absolute truth. And he lost 49 out of 50 States in the election. And, in fact, Reagan did raise taxes. Even though he lied and said he wouldn't.

Vote for honesty? If you are confronted with two politicians: one says he/she won't raise taxes and the other says he/she will raise taxes, who do you vote for? The honest one or the one selling you a fantasy? As the Reagan-Mondale election showed, fantasy wins out.

If you want truth-telling politicians, vote for them even though they are telling you things you don't want to hear. Because, frankly, most of us don't want to hear the truth. If somebody comes and tries to tell us the truth, we are far more likely to crucify him. There is historical precedent for it.

Yes, well said.
The usual justification down here for breaking promises is to say that the previous government left things in worse shape than we could possibly imagine, so of course we have to raise taxes to get us out of trouble. Of course, that only works if your government was not the incumbent. Not sure how Ray-gun got around that one in the above example.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Raptor Eye
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It could be that those voting for the ones telling lies are still naive enough to think that they are being told the truth. I wonder whether there should be a legal method of accountability, so that the promises made become a contract, rather than having to put up with the usual 'You can vote us out next time if you're not happy' old hat. When all who stand tell lies, how is anyone supposed to know what they will get if they vote? No wonder so many don't bother.

It's not a personal attack on individual politicians, despite the expenses scandal (which I still don't think many of them see as seriously as the public do). I do think most are genuinely trying to do what they think is best. It's the culture of dishonesty in terms of what is told to the public that I'm so irritated by, tied with a party system that insists on individuals voting against their own principles at times.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It could be that those voting for the ones telling lies are still naive enough to think that they are being told the truth. I wonder whether there should be a legal method of accountability, so that the promises made become a contract, rather than having to put up with the usual 'You can vote us out next time if you're not happy' old hat. When all who stand tell lies, how is anyone supposed to know what they will get if they vote? No wonder so many don't bother.

Because Parliament is Sovereign, and if one Parliament put that contract system in place, another could remove it. You get a vote and the right to free speech. That's it. And quite right too in my view.

We are a representative democracy in the UK and we elect people to represent us.

I love those who don't vote. It pleases my old heart no end, because all those who don't are lefties anyway. Fantastic. Long may it continue. Keep on not voting and being dissolusioned!

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:


I love those who don't vote. It pleases my old heart no end, because all those who don't are lefties anyway. Fantastic. Long may it continue. Keep on not voting and being dissolusioned!

Do you seriously mean that some 35% of the electorate are "lefties"? That's the proportion of the electorate that didn't vote in 2010, and was an improvement on the 61% turnout in 2005.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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