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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Partying With The One Percent
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Apparently there's a secret Wall Street society known as "Kappa Beta Phi" which gets together once a year for a party and variety show. Reporter Kevin Roose managed to sneak in a couple years ago while researching a book and has now written up the experience for New York magazine. He describes it as "a sort of one-percenter’s Friars Club". There was the usual contempt for the lower classes that usually comes out at these sorts of gatherings (think of Romney's infamous "47% video"), but what was interesting was what happened when the reporter was outed.
quote:
“Give me that or I’ll fucking break it!” [Fortress Investment Group Director Michael] Novogratz yelled, grabbing for my phone, which was filled with damning evidence. His eyes were bloodshot, and his neck veins were bulging. The song onstage was now over, and a number of prominent Kappas had rushed over to our table. Before the situation could escalate dangerously, a bond investor and former Grand Swipe named Alexandra Lebenthal stepped in between us. Wilbur Ross quickly followed, and the two of them led me out into the lobby, past a throng of Wall Street tycoons, some of whom seemed to be hyperventilating.
Once we made it to the lobby, Ross and Lebenthal reassured me that what I’d just seen wasn’t really a group of wealthy and powerful financiers making homophobic jokes, making light of the financial crisis, and bragging about their business conquests at Main Street’s expense. No, it was just a group of friends who came together to roast each other in a benign and self-deprecating manner. Nothing to see here.
But the extent of their worry wasn’t made clear until Ross offered himself up as a source for future stories in exchange for my cooperation.
“I’ll pick up the phone anytime, get you any help you need,” he said.
“Yeah, the people in this group could be very helpful,” Lebenthal chimed in. “If you could just keep their privacy in mind.”
I wasn’t going to be bribed off my story, but I understood their panic. Here, after all, was a group that included many of the executives whose firms had collectively wrecked the global economy in 2008 and 2009. And they were laughing off the entire disaster in private, as if it were a long-forgotten lark. (Or worse, sing about it — one of the last skits of the night was a self-congratulatory parody of ABBA’s “Dancing Queen,” called “Bailout King.”) These were activities that amounted to a gigantic middle finger to Main Street and that, if made public, could end careers and damage very public reputations.
What always gets me is how sensitive these financiers are. If you're going to have contempt for the working classes you shouldn't care if they don't like you. So, is this just a harmless way to "blow off some steam", or just another piece of evidence that the One Percent came out of the 2008 Financial Crisis like the Bourbons came out of the French Revolution, having "learned nothing and forgotten nothing" (and worried that the lower orders might hate them for some unfathomable reason)?
A less critical account of a Kappa event can be found in this 2009 Wall Street Journal article.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I myself had a rare opportunity to party with the one percenters a little over a year ago, at the wedding of a family member (himself part of that crowd). While the gathering wasn't quite as out of control as the one described here, otherwise I'd say it's fairly consistent with my observations. Not the best party I've ever been to, I'd say, although I will say the alcohol was generous and top shelf. At the time the Occupy movement was in full throttle, I spent most of the evening fantasizing about going over to the encampment a few blocks away to let them know "hey, they're over here..." Not too much socializing once folks figured out what I do for a living.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Awww... have the nasty rich people upset some sensitive liberals?
Tut...
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Seems to me it's the rich people who are most visibly upset.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
Don't know what they have to be upset about since their best friends ever now reside in the White House and the Fed.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
There's a whole movement of people out there that is actively seeking to destroy them. I reckon that sort of thing is going to be upsetting whoever you are.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
What always gets me is how sensitive these financiers are.
I don't see why this sensitivity should surprise anyone. The one-percenters acquire and exercise their power out of sight of the majority, and invisibility protects their hold on that power. One-percenters probably don't care what the hoi polloi think; they do understand, though, that the hoi polloi, once alerted to the Invisible's power, could (unlikely, but possible) pressure their elected representatives to stop sucking up to these Great Golden Leeches by serving what was once a democracy on platters to their masters.
[ 19. February 2014, 15:08: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Awww... have the nasty rich people upset some sensitive liberals?
Tut...
You deserve a(nother) Hell call for that, but I rarely do them, so I'm calling you to defend yourself here, with reason, rather than there, with abuse.
Surely you can see that the issue is not about upsetting liberals? The issue is that a few people, who have caused immense hardship to thousands, if not millions, of others, have been caught in the act of mocking those whose hardship they have caused. They, whose pockets have been lined by taxpayers' bailouts, are ridiculing the poor and the less fortunate. It's not enough for them that they're extremely rich; not even enough that they're rich at the expense of the poor: they have to be rich and mock the poor. They're revelling in saying that, in essence, they did something monstrously immoral, and not only got away with it, but were rewarded for it. And they were caught at it by a guy with a camera in his phone. That is the issue.
I suppose there's a case for saying that at least when they were caught at it, their anger was a recognition that they realised they were doing something wrong. But it's not much of a case. And I doubt that there would be much point in reminding them that even when the journalist wasn't watching them, God was.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There's a whole movement of people out there that is actively seeking to destroy them.
AFAICT the loudest calls are for those responsible for the worst excesses of the financial crisis to face legal action, and for tighter regulation in cases where the industry is bailed out.
If that constitutes 'destroying' them - then they deserve to be 'destroyed'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
There's a whole movement of people out there that is actively seeking to destroy them.
It's that kind of over-the-top, "OMG Kristallnacht!" reaction to criticism and the suggestion that wealthy financiers shouldn't be above the law that makes the extremely wealthy (and their apologists) look ridiculous.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I suspect that some feel guilty about their wealth and power, and one way of trying to dissipate guilt, is to be defiant. That is, you can wallow in your position, trash talk the chavs, and generally be disreputable. Whether it works or not, I don't know.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suspect that some feel guilty about their wealth and power, and one way of trying to dissipate guilt, is to be defiant. That is, you can wallow in your position, trash talk the chavs, and generally be disreputable. Whether it works or not, I don't know.
I'd add to that, they are laughing to hide how fearful and worried many of them are. The difference between the people still on Wall Street, and the people whose firms blew up or who got laid off or got arrested is razor thin. There was wrongdoing going on in many desks in many firms - we just don't know about all of it yet. There were just criminal charges announced against a group of Barclays traders this week about activities in 2007. There is more to come, the SEC has a lot of open investigations and there are plenty of lawsuits as well.
So making jokes about the bailout or the working stiffs who want revenge, is a way of saying "I'm not afraid of the boogeyman."
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
seekingsister
Good points. Yes, if you know you have broken the law, you are going to be pretty scared, and possibly also feel guilty (except the sociopaths).
I'm not sure about the moral aspects of it - maybe some rich and powerful are worried that they have profited from others' poverty, but also, probably, some of them don't give a monkey's.
It always reminds me of one of Freud's ideas about criminals - they are criminal because they feel guilty, not the other way round. Of course, it's not always true, but sometimes I think it is. Defiance is often the key.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
seekingsister
Your point about laughing to hide your fears, reminded me of Richard III (in Shakepeare), who famously seduces the widow of the man he has just killed, by his graveside. Some critic called it 'coquetry on the edge of the grave', and it can be seen as your laughter arising out of fear. It all ends in tears.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's that kind of over-the-top, "OMG Kristallnacht!" reaction to criticism and the suggestion that wealthy financiers shouldn't be above the law that makes the extremely wealthy (and their apologists) look ridiculous.
If all the "Occupy" and "99%" stuff was only about ensuring the enforcement of the law then I'd agree. But it goes far further than that.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
It's that kind of over-the-top, "OMG Kristallnacht!" reaction to criticism and the suggestion that wealthy financiers shouldn't be above the law that makes the extremely wealthy (and their apologists) look ridiculous.
If all the "Occupy" and "99%" stuff was only about ensuring the enforcement of the law then I'd agree. But it goes far further than that.
How much further? Are you convinced that "Occupy" was secretly a government paramilitary organization that perpetrated pre-planned violence disguised as spontaneous riots, as Tom Perkins seems to?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Awww... have the nasty rich people upset some sensitive liberals?
Tut...
You deserve a(nother) Hell call for that, but I rarely do them, so I'm calling you to defend yourself here, with reason, rather than there, with abuse.
Bring it on. I would welcome a bit of light stress relief and you would be perfect for it.
Just let me know.
And the rest of your schtick boils down to...
"Rich people not allowed a sense of humour or to be nasty".
All the rest is just dull commentary.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Awww... have the nasty rich people upset some sensitive liberals?
Tut...
Actually, they've upset me and I'm not a liberal.
quote:
originally posted by MarvintheMartian:
There's a whole movement of people out there that is actively seeking to destroy them. I reckon that sort of thing is going to be upsetting whoever you are.
I find myself being part of that movement. Forget Occupy. I vote Republican more often than not. At this point, a Populist backlash is inevitable. It's only a question of when and what form it takes.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Club shows are an old tradition- the one I've been taking part in for the last six years has been around for 114 years. They are not exclusive to upper class clubs; I knew a proud teacher's union member who loved his club review, which was put on with other teachers and actors. Not video taping the proceedings is the tradition- would you want someone video taping you in your union hall or office Christmas party skit after you had had a few drinks? The humor is usually crude, although we try not to cross too many lines, and we have enough gay, non-white, female, and otherwise sensitive members to point out when a joke might not be as funny as the writer thought. But we still try to be somewhat provocative. These guys probably need some better sensitivity training, and would certainly benefit from inviting guests to the show, as that makes you a lot more careful, but I think if you were a guest, you would be more bored than incensed by the proceedings. (My wife has to sit through mine, and she assures you it's a bad show which is mostly an excuse for my buddies and me to dress up in silly costumes and drink a bunch of beer on stage.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
At this point, a Populist backlash is inevitable. It's only a question of when and what form it takes.
You've more stock in the integrity of humanity than I.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Populist backlashes rarely have anything to do with the integrity of humanity.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Populist backlashes rarely have anything to do with the integrity of humanity.
This meaning:
quote:
2.
the state of being whole and undivided.
synonyms: unity, unification, coherence, cohesion, togetherness, solidarity
Distract, divide, conquer.
A circus is easier to build these days, they fit in a box in our homes.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Beeswax Altar is right. Consisder any form of lynch mob. Blood lust and self-righteouness, mixed up with a lust to put down other people.
I like Joe Heller's take on exclusive college type fraternities, have quoted it on other threads.
From the hapless, hopeless and ultimately horrible Arfy in "Catch-22".
quote:
Being in a college fraternity was wonderful. We used to ostracise everyone, even each other
Words to that effect - my copy is out on loan.
[ 19. February 2014, 17:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Awww... have the nasty rich people upset some sensitive liberals?
Tut...
You deserve a(nother) Hell call for that, but I rarely do them, so I'm calling you to defend yourself here, with reason, rather than there, with abuse.
Bring it on. I would welcome a bit of light stress relief and you would be perfect for it.
Just let me know.
And the rest of your schtick boils down to...
"Rich people not allowed a sense of humour or to be nasty".
All the rest is just dull commentary.
What part of 'have caused suffering to millions' do you not understand?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Populist backlashes rarely have anything to do with the integrity of humanity.
This is correct. Further as BA pointed out earlier, it is about all sides of the political spectrum. Which is interesting. A group that has united or has the potential to, all parts of society.
I would note that we're really not talking about the 1% here, we're talking about the .1% or the .01%. Not the millionaires, the 20 million millionaires. The ones who take private jets.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
How much further? Are you convinced that "Occupy" was secretly a government paramilitary organization that perpetrated pre-planned violence disguised as spontaneous riots, as Tom Perkins seems to?
Don't be ridiculous. But calling for people to be stripped of their assets goes a bit beyond merely seeking to enforce the law.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What part of 'have caused suffering to millions' do you not understand?
The part where it means they're not allowed to have a sense of humour, presumably.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, everybody is entitled to their sense of sadism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
How much further? Are you convinced that "Occupy" was secretly a government paramilitary organization that perpetrated pre-planned violence disguised as spontaneous riots, as Tom Perkins seems to?
Don't be ridiculous. But calling for people to be stripped of their assets goes a bit beyond merely seeking to enforce the law.
There are legal procedures to strip folks of their assets in compensation to financial losses they have caused others. It's done to poor folk all the time.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
cliffdweller,
Are you under the delusion the same sets of law and principle are applicable to both rich and poor?
Where has your minder wandered off to?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm not exactly certain that it's the "nasty rich people" that are upsetting. It's simply that the people here who are being nasty happen to be rich.
Nasty people - let's take something grittily working-class as dog fighting - are those who go outside of cultural norms, and often the law, to deliberately inflict pain and suffering on others with a complete disregard for the consequences. That seems to sum up both those who organise and take part in dog fighting and high finance.
I have known some very rich people in my time: some of them nice, some of them not so, and some of them I wouldn't have trusted with a kerbside lemonade stand. Pretty much "people" then, though I'm guessing that it takes a particular mindset to crash the global economy and keep the sense of entitlement to carry on running it.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
How much further? Are you convinced that "Occupy" was secretly a government paramilitary organization that perpetrated pre-planned violence disguised as spontaneous riots, as Tom Perkins seems to?
Don't be ridiculous.
Hey, I'm not the one seriously advancing that position. If you feel that's a ridiculous position, take it up with panicky billionaires like Perkins.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But calling for people to be stripped of their assets goes a bit beyond merely seeking to enforce the law.
Sorry, what are you referring to as stripping people of their assets? Pointing out that bonds backed by unrepayable mortgages are virtually worthless "strips" them of value? Successfully proving that robo-signed mortgage documents were used to fraudulently foreclose on someone's house strips that house's value from the bank it 'should' belong to? Your assertion is a little vague and could be applied in a lot of different ways to the situation being discussed.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What part of 'have caused suffering to millions' do you not understand?
The part where it means they're not allowed to have a sense of humour, presumably.
Yeah, making jokes about other people's suffering is a tricky business. There's a very fine needle to thread there, particularly if the joke-teller is arguably responsible for some of that suffering. At any rate, as the κβφ event illustrates the wealthy are certainly allowed to mock the working class. What you seem to be arguing is that their humour should be above criticism.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
cliffdweller,
Are you under the delusion the same sets of law and principle are applicable to both rich and poor?
Where has your minder wandered off to?
Oh, sorry, wandered off into fantasy land for a moment.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I'm a little zoned out on cold/allergy medicine and I read the title of the OP as: "Partying With The One True God".
Now, THAT would be a great party, no?!
I'll shut up now and let the adults talk.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Crœsos
It is about the level of damage done, IMO. A person of lesser resource might destroy a few lives; a person of greater resource, millions.
[ 19. February 2014, 18:49: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Ooops, that was a response to Doc Tor.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I'm a little zoned out on cold/allergy medicine and I read the title of the OP as: "Partying With The One True God".
As demonstrated by the way some here have taken umbrage at the notion that the ultra-wealthy aren't omnibenevolent, that's a fairly common error.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Populist backlashes rarely have anything to do with the integrity of humanity.
This is correct. Further as BA pointed out earlier, it is about all sides of the political spectrum. Which is interesting. A group that has united or has the potential to, all parts of society.
I would note that we're really not talking about the 1% here, we're talking about the .1% or the .01%. Not the millionaires, the 20 million millionaires. The ones who take private jets.
Rod Dreher suggests the United States is waiting for Huey.
He means this Huey for those of you not familiar with US political history.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Masters of the universe! They came, they didn't see, they fucked up, they got paid, they came, they didn't see, they fucked up, they got paid, they came ...
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are legal procedures to strip folks of their assets in compensation to financial losses they have caused others. It's done to poor folk all the time.
Only where they can be shown to be directly and individually responsible.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Pretty much "people" then, though I'm guessing that it takes a particular mindset to crash the global economy and keep the sense of entitlement to carry on running it.
Probably the same sort of mindset that it takes to crash your car and still expect to be allowed to drive.
[ 19. February 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are legal procedures to strip folks of their assets in compensation to financial losses they have caused others. It's done to poor folk all the time.
Only where they can be shown to be directly and individually responsible.
It's interesting that the wing of the political spectrum that notionally believes in people taking responsibility for themselves forgets that principle when it comes to the misdoings of high finance.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There are legal procedures to strip folks of their assets in compensation to financial losses they have caused others. It's done to poor folk all the time.
Only where they can be shown to be directly and individually responsible.
Which is why we are advocating that they be brought up on charges. Because I and others believe that precisely that connection can in fact be made.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
And the rest of your schtick boils down to...
"Rich people not allowed a sense of humour or to be nasty".
All the rest is just dull commentary.
I'm sorry you missed the substance of my post. It's true I tend to write in long sentences with sub-clauses and stuff. So here it is, recast in question form, and all but one of the words are of one syllable only:
Is it ever right for the rich to mock the poor?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It's interesting that the wing of the political spectrum that notionally believes in people taking responsibility for themselves forgets that principle when it comes to the misdoings of high finance.
One might say the same about the wing of the political spectrum that notionally believes in not scapegoating an entire segment of society just because a few members of that segment have broken the law.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Personally, I'm more worried about the members of that segment which shape the law.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Pretty much "people" then, though I'm guessing that it takes a particular mindset to crash the global economy and keep the sense of entitlement to carry on running it.
Probably the same sort of mindset that it takes to crash your car and still expect to be allowed to drive.
That's quite likely. Unfortunately, governments the world over seem to have forgotten to keep a tight hold of the keys. Hell, even a six-months ban from driving anything more sophisticated than a push-bike would be a start.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It's interesting that the wing of the political spectrum that notionally believes in people taking responsibility for themselves forgets that principle when it comes to the misdoings of high finance.
One might say the same about the wing of the political spectrum that notionally believes in not scapegoating an entire segment of society just because a few members of that segment have broken the law.
The thing is, I don't think it's a few, and neither do most people. The law, of course, is slow to catch up and often made by the malefactors themselves. What we're left with is a sense that a crushing injustice has taken place and there's no redress.
And that's why folk are pissed off.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
One might say the same about the wing of the political spectrum that notionally believes in not scapegoating an entire segment of society just because a few members of that segment have broken the law.
The real scandal of the 2008 financial crisis wasn't that a few financiers overstepped themselves and broke the law. The real scandal was when it was discovered what was actually legal. For instance, let's say you handle other people's investment portfolios. Most of us would assume that entails some kind of fiduciary responsibility to try to increase the value of those portfolios, or at least to not deliberately buy investments you know to be either over-valued or worthless. Let's further hypothesize that the firm you work for (let's call this purely hypothetical firm "Stair Burns") has a stake in some assets which are, unbeknownst to the investing public but beknownst to you, virtually worthless. Now Martian morality may find no problem with fund managers recommending worthless assets as great investments in order to shore up their corporation's bottom line as long as the practice is legal, but us Earthlings usually regard such dealings as wrong, even if legal.
The substitution of the legal code for moral or ethical judgements is a neat trick often practiced by the wealthy (and their apologists), but there's no reason we are obligated to indulge this false equivalence. In fact, it could be argued that the disproportionate influence the wealthy usually have in re-shaping the law is one reason this approach is favored by them (and their apologists).
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
And the rest of your schtick boils down to...
"Rich people not allowed a sense of humour or to be nasty".
And you think they're allowed to be nasty? Why?
I don't think anyone is allowed to be nasty, particularly, and I certainly don't think being successful entitles you to an extra brand of nastiness that involves gloating over those who have been less successful.
I doubt you'll agree with me because of some of your views about the need to have 'lesser' people around who will fill the 'lesser' jobs. But that's exactly what I suspect the problem is with some of these folk.
They think that because they have more money, they are superior. As if the amount of cash you have is some kind of measure of your quality as a human being.
And as if the amount of money you get paid for a job is actually a good reflection of the intrinsic worth of the job. I certainly don't think that's the case when it comes to the world of finance. What's the actual VALUE of what many of these folk are doing? Hmm? What are they contributing to the world? Sure, there is a certain degree of value in aiding other people in directing funds into real life, concrete projects, but frankly the amount of remuneration they get for sliding figures around and placing bets is far, far in excess of their usefulness.
[ 20. February 2014, 00:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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