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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: David Cameron, evangelical
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
David Cameron in the Church Times this week:
quote:
I believe we should be more confident about our status as a Christian country, more ambitious about expanding the role of faith-based organisations, and, frankly, more evangelical about a faith that compels us to get out there and make a difference to people's lives.
Church Times
Is this message good for British Christians and for Britain in general?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That's a weasel word right there. Saying people should "be more evangelical" may make evangelical Christians think Cameron is an evangelical, but the word is often used much more widely in business, particularly in the field of new technology. See for instance, more or less at random, here (emphasis mine):
quote:
Most internet users will tend towards the casual end of the advocacy scale. These are the people who like a Facebook post or retweet a tweet. At the other end of the scale are the super fans, who are evangelical about products or services
So very cleverly worded, but not a clear sign of a sudden "Damascus Road" conversion in my view.
[ 17. April 2014, 08:16: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's a weasel word right there. Saying people should "be more evangelical" may make evangelical Christians think Cameron is an evangelical, but the word is often used much more widely in business, particularly in the field of new technology.
This being a written medium, the location of my tongue in relation to my cheek is not clear in my post. Maybe I ought to change it to "evangelical."
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Scare quotes or not, he's not saying he is an evangelical or, despite appearances, recommending that Christians should be theologically evangelical. But that's quite possibly how a lot of UK evangelical voters will hear it. Here in France the general public will probably think he's become George W Bush.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
This is one of those places where two kingdoms thinking is useful. Just because he has proclaimed himself to be 'evangelical' or Christian, doesn't mean that he suddenly has competency that was previously lacking.
I've always felt that a lot of the church have been willing to give IDS the benefit of the doubt for far too long based on him being 'a good Christian man'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
I'm wondering if he meant 'evangelistic', in any case!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Having read the whole article I frankly feel a little sick now ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
So the government is " giving £8 million to the Near Neighbours programme, which brings faith communities together in supporting local projects." ~Well that's great, and certainly a lot cheaper for them then actually having a welfare system that doesn't penalise people for being poor, ill or disabled. Also he "welcome the efforts of all those who help to feed, clothe, and house the poorest in our society." Lovely, the church is doing it so we don't have to.
Maybe I'm being a bit cynical but frankly this reads to me like "Ok we've bashed the churches a bit for running food banks, but actually they are doing our job for us, with no cost to us whatsoever, so let's give them a little pat on the back."
Is it me being cynical, or them?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
I know the PM recently met with Gerald Coates (and presumably some other Christian leaders) at no 10. It wouldn't surprised me that DC agreed to make some encouraging noises in the back of that. The question is, how will these statements translate into any kind of policy initiative?
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
In a country where the poor are reviled and the people taught to revile them as skivers and scroungers, and where the growing need for food banks is met with sneers from the ruling party, he is shameless.
If he is one of those people who rewrites the world so he can believe it to be a panglossian place where all that he does is for the best, that would be bad enough, for someone in his position.
But if he actually recognises what he is responsible for in the state of the nation, that is worse.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Part of his UKIP defence strategy?
I also agree with SCK, I think he meant evangelistic rather than evangelical. The distinction is probably one of many things about the C of E about which he is, self-admittedly, a bit vague. (See Church Times article)
So Gerald Coates paid a recent visit? You can expect references to that at any upcoming conferences at which he speaks. Well known "name-dropper", Gerald.
[BTW, Gerald Coates is an anagram of "Large Tesco Ad" as wells as "God's Ale Crates"]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Scare quotes or not, he's not saying he is an evangelical or, despite appearances, recommending that Christians should be theologically evangelical. But that's quite possibly how a lot of UK evangelical voters will hear it.
I think the word choice was purposeful and intended to convey exactly the double meaning you highlight - the business/idea promotion concept and a "dog whistle" to conservative Christians who might give their votes to other parties at the upcoming set of elections.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Is it me being cynical, or them?
No, it's certainly not you. As an evangelical I'm nonplussed (at best) as to why my faith community has been dragged into his attempt to wash over his government's failures.
"We're not withdrawing services, we're making space for the church - which is just brilliant isn't it, even though I don't understand its theology and don't really bother to attend - to do all that nice Christian stuff for the poor and whatnot. And because I'm saying this in public, I'm being evangelical for the church. I think?"
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I know the PM recently met with Gerald Coates (and presumably some other Christian leaders) at no 10. It wouldn't surprised me that DC agreed to make some encouraging noises in the back of that. The question is, how will these statements translate into any kind of policy initiative?
He's talked the talk, but before he walks, we need to work out who he's talking to and why.
DC is very good at encouraging noises. That's his job.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Cartmel Veteran
Shipmate
# 7049
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Posted
I think this is all about trying to claw back votes from those moving towards UKIP. Here in West Dorset there are many older moneyed Tories that are moving towards UKIP - a party that favours their homophobic, racist, anti-immigration, pull the ladder up after them view of society*.
The sad thing is many of these people attend my wife's churches. They'll give to the foodbank, money to the church, do fundraising. Yet they still show off abhorrent bigoted views.
UKIP appeals to them more these days because the Tories aren't being anti-gay or anti-Europe enough. And there's quite a few UKIP signs gone up around here recently. One of the UKIP candidates attends a local church.
So the older traditionalist Anglican vote is moving further right and I think that's what has got Conservatives scared. Cameron can hardly go back on the gay marriage laws now, so he's trying to appeal to the racist old biddies the best he can by claiming to be a follower of Jesus - that well known scourge of the poor.
*My wife and I have heard enough of it round here to know its a very common view from the older moneyed people in the surrounding parishes. It's like every month the government unleashes rabid wolves on the poor in the area. These lovely old churchy Tories come out to help, tend their wounds, comfort them. And then every four years tick a box that says "unleash wolves on the poor".
[ 17. April 2014, 09:37: Message edited by: Cartmel Veteran ]
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I'm wondering if he meant 'evangelistic', in any case!
I'm not sure: it's certainly possible, but I wonder, with others here, whether he's deliberately trying to "tap in" to evangelical Christians whom he hopes are sympathetic to the Tories.
Which isn't to say all evangelicals are Tories - that's nonsense as I'm the former but definitely not the latter. But I get quite a bit from a certain large evangelical media group (because I subscribe to one of their magazines) and if I was one of his advisors and saw their stuff, I'd definitely be advising him to court them as they do seem like they could be largely sympathetic to him.
And yes, it does seem really rather cynical, especially in the light of the letter that was sent to him from church leaders about the rise in use of foodbanks...
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Lovely, the church is doing it so we don't have to.
I'm unconvinced that this is massively different from the "the government should do it so we don't have to" stance of many churches/churchgoers...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Which isn't to say all evangelicals are Tories - that's nonsense as I'm the former but definitely not the latter.
There is a certain constituency of evangelicals who look to the US as an exampler whowould be Tory - and it looks like a strategy that would be very much in their mould[*] but designed to attract older voters tending rightwards.
[*] Which isn't much of a surprise because they adopt similar tactics to Dave from PR
[edited code with evangelistic zeal]
[ 17. April 2014, 13:16: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
I know the PM recently met with Gerald Coates (and presumably some other Christian leaders) at no 10. It wouldn't surprised me that DC agreed to make some encouraging noises in the back of that. The question is, how will these statements translate into any kind of policy initiative?
If that happened to be on 9 April, I know there was an evening reception for religious 'leaders' for Easter. Someone I know was invited and turned it down as he a) didn't want to legitimise the current government by being there and b) felt it would be uncouth to tell someone in their own house that their policies were evil and antichristian.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I wouldn't take seriously anything that Cameron says or promises.
He is a politician. Politicians will make any accommodating noises necessary to win votes and Cameron is playing to the right-wing gallery in the guise of religious rhetoric.
His view of Christianity happens to be Pelagian as well as being indistinguishable from the best of non-Christian Faiths.
Enough of this political playing to the gallery nonsense.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
Not necessarily. In government the individual ministers, even PMs, support legislation they might disagree with personally. It's one of the consequences of cabinet responsibility and amongst everything else, he probably doesn't regard it as the #1 issue, so it wouldn't be worth resigning over.
Then again, even if he is an evangelical Christian, I doubt he is your kind of evangelical Christian.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
Not necessarily. In government the individual ministers, even PMs, support legislation they might disagree with personally. It's one of the consequences of cabinet responsibility and amongst everything else, he probably doesn't regard it as the #1 issue, so it wouldn't be worth resigning over.
Then again, even if he is an evangelical Christian, I doubt he is your kind of evangelical Christian.
There is a difference between supporting (or not) a bill and introducing it and pushing it through while disregarding the voices of many in your party.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Presumably David Cameron's recent Easter message is all related to this as well. DC's Easter message
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
As well as what Sioni Sais said, one can consider an action to be immoral or not right, yet still believe people should have the freedom to take that action if they feel it is moral / appropriate / correct.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
Perhaps he's the sort of evangelical Christian that supports same sex marriage.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Lovely, the church is doing it so we don't have to.
I'm unconvinced that this is massively different from the "the government should do it so we don't have to" stance of many churches/churchgoers...
Totally agree Marvin. There are plenty of Christians out there whose idea of loving their neighbour stops before it gets below a certain income bracket.
In any community there will always be those for whom government assistance, however generous, will not be enough, that is the hole that Christians should be plugging. Not the hole left by policies that target the disabled, the sick, the uneducated.
If the measure of a society is how it cares for it's most vulnerable people, then frankly the UK is looking pretty sick.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
This view is deeply problematic. I'm going to ignore the specifics of the Dead Horse here but address what seems to be your wider point - that an evangelical (defined by yourself, I suppose) politician is going use their power to impose his or her own standards of behavior as a Christian onto the wider society.
When countries like Saudi Arabia or Malaysia do this, we call it religious oppression. And for good reason.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
OK, so I too think DC meant that the CofE should get out there and not hid the 'God bit', but I don't think that means he is an evangelical in church terms.
As for whether or not we should take him at face value: looking at the 2 party leaders of the coalition, I'd rather DC than Nick Clegg, who is still trying to claim that proclivities of Cyril Smith were unknown within the party until after CS's death.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If we was an evangelical Christian he would not have pushed through the same sex marriage bill.
This is a clever device to induce a bunch of liberal left-leaning Christians to defend David Cameron.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I think the word choice was purposeful and intended to convey exactly the double meaning you highlight - the business/idea promotion concept and a "dog whistle"
I think this is very likely. It seems like an odd word to use at that particular point, although I notice he uses the rest of the text to make himself sound like a vague, go-occasionally, not-too-worryingly-keen Christian to those who wouldn't pick up on that word and might otherwise worry about a politician who "does God".
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
It's too easy to judge whether a public figure's faith is sincere and real or not.
I'll start with the things I liked about DC's comments. The simple highlighting of the facts the Christian faith has contributed and continues to do so to the fabric of our nation. When much of the media seems to want to airbrush out various important facts about faith and this country it was good to hear a reminder.
Then there's the things that irritate me!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Evidence of real faith is by the fruit it yields and for many whether they are Christian or not may perceive DC's comments as promoting something that is only for middle class white folk.
With Easter Sunday approaching I believe we have a whole lot more to offer than this.
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cartmel Veteran:
...The sad thing is many of these people attend my wife's churches. They'll give to the foodbank, money to the church, do fundraising. Yet they still show off abhorrent bigoted views.
...
Just one small thing: just because people happen to have conservative views on immigration, sexuality, race, etc., doesn't make them 'bigots'. That's not what the word 'bigot' means. It means somebody who holds a particular view, and stubbornly refuses to consider the alternatives, not somebody who holds a different view from the one which you do. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) People in positions of power and influence generally speaking have considered the alternatives, and don't much like them.
Saying that, I do think considering Dave as a Christian stretches the definition a little bit too far, given his toleration of payday loans, zero-hour contracts, bedroom tax, etc., etc., and it does demonstrate how perilously close the CofE sometimes comes to condoning this sort of right-wing conservatism.
[ 17. April 2014, 14:51: Message edited by: Holy Smoke ]
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Cartmel Veteran
Shipmate
# 7049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Just one small thing: just because people happen to have conservative views on immigration, sexuality, race, etc., doesn't make them 'bigots'. That's not what the word 'bigot' means. It means somebody who holds a particular view, and stubbornly refuses to consider the alternatives, not somebody who holds a different view from the one which you do.
Just one other "small thing", Gee thanks Mr Dictionary.
The views I've heard aren't "conservative views" they are more akin to the BNP or worse. If I was just talking about conservative views I wouldn't have used the word bigot. I'm talking about hatred, racism, "ship them all back to bongo land" and the like. That's not "conservative views".
I used the word because you hear a lot of stuff that sounds like the following. "Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's ethnicity, evaluative orientation, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, opinion, or other characteristics."
And you hear plenty of it from Tory church goers in West Dorset.
Posts: 1041 | From: Dorset | Registered: May 2004
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cartmel Veteran:
...I used the word because you hear a lot of stuff that sounds like the following. "Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's ... opinion, or other characteristics."
And you hear plenty of it from Tory church goers in West Dorset.
You're welcome to look the word up in a real dictionary, of course. Meanwhile, I think you'd better come up with some quantifiable evidence of what 'Tory church goers' actually believe and practice. Apart from Dave, of course, who we know about.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The pathetic weasel has realised he might need the vote of Christians, so he is saying things that they can interpret as being supporting of their views.
Without, of course, actually committing himself to doing any of the things that most people would consider to be Christian. Like caring for the poor, and helpless.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I noticed the line that it's fine to evangelise the Christian Church and all its good work, not so important to believe in God or to promote belief.
So yay for moral values where they mean that Christians get out there and put their energies into helping others, especially those suffering from the dreadful policies which leave people hungry or homeless, and yay for our history as a Christian country where jolly good fellows gave their all to bring in health care and education, but not 'yay' for God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Cartmel Veteran
Shipmate
# 7049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Cartmel Veteran:
...I used the word because you hear a lot of stuff that sounds like the following. "Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred on the basis of a person's ... opinion, or other characteristics."
And you hear plenty of it from Tory church goers in West Dorset.
You're welcome to look the word up in a real dictionary, of course. Meanwhile, I think you'd better come up with some quantifiable evidence of what 'Tory church goers' actually believe and practice. Apart from Dave, of course, who we know about.
What? You want me to go record them next time and present evidence to you? You've a grand opinion of yourself.
Meanwhile in the real world folks don't go around recording each other to present on the internet.
I said I'd heard such discussion. If you don't believe it. Then fine, but I'm not going to waste a second of my time playing "internet willy waving" with you. Hope things work out for you.
Posts: 1041 | From: Dorset | Registered: May 2004
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
The £20M for cathedrals is welcome - I understand the CofE is looking at an £87M shortfall in cathedral funding repairs. Also interested from any CofEers on how this new grant compares to cuts to funding since the coalition came to power.
£8m, for anti-poverty projects,whilst welcome in itself, is a drop in the ocean compared to the billions in reduced welfare spending. Can anyone tell me more about the "Near Neighbours" project? Is this the same as the Church Urban Fund?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Also he "welcome the efforts of all those who help to feed, clothe, and house the poorest in our society." Lovely, the church is doing it so we don't have to.
Maybe I'm being a bit cynical but frankly this reads to me like "Ok we've bashed the churches a bit for running food banks, but actually they are doing our job for us, with no cost to us whatsoever, so let's give them a little pat on the back."
Is it me being cynical, or them?
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
In a country where ... the growing need for food banks is met with sneers from the ruling party, he is shameless.
Whenever Labour MPs try to bait David Cameron about food banks (which they do periodically in Prime Minister's Questions) he goes out of his way to praise the work they do. He's been doing that for a while.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Whenever Labour MPs try to bait David Cameron about food banks (which they do periodically in Prime Minister's Questions) he goes out of his way to praise the work they do. He's been doing that for a while.
People who run down the street with knives, slashing at anyone within reach, have only good things to say about the NHS, I hear.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
It's shameless trawling for votes. Hypocrite.
About the only bit that sounded real was his references to the help he got from the church at the time of his son's death.
Today we have most newspapers (the righter leaning ones), attacking the food banks. Good news/bad news = good tory/bad tory.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Is it possible for any politician to make a statement about their own personal faith without being accused of trawling for votes?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Scare quotes or not, he's not saying he is an evangelical or, despite appearances, recommending that Christians should be theologically evangelical. But that's quite possibly how a lot of UK evangelical voters will hear it. Here in France the general public will probably think he's become George W Bush.
So Cameron has mellowed?
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Whenever Labour MPs try to bait David Cameron about food banks (which they do periodically in Prime Minister's Questions) he goes out of his way to praise the work they do. He's been doing that for a while.
This baiting wouldn't work if his party wasn't full of people who periodically make completely idiotic statements about food banks (see Lord Freud, etc.)
Secondly most criticisms come from people (often people who run food banks themselves) who would rather that food banks didn't need to exist in the first place.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Does anyone really wish that food banks had to exist in the first place? Same with, say, Job Seekers' Allowance.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
And the British church splits into the Political Church and the Confessing Church.
Just like in Germany in the 1930s....
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Unemployment is a price worth paying, apparently.
Of course, you don't have to give them dole...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is it possible for any politician to make a statement about their own personal faith without being accused of trawling for votes?
Absolutely, but it has to be shown long-term, in words and actions.
There are MPs who have and show their faith. Most of them don't talk about it, they show it.
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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