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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ferguson's breakdown of law and order
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
Congratulations you idiots. You've managed to destroy law and order badly enough Palestinians are tweeting advice on how to cope. Every last one of you deserves to lose your badge. Never mind that the neighborhood is 66% black and you guys are 6% black - and you have a history of kafkaesque charges including bleeding on an officer's uniform.
From your mouth to God's ears. It takes a special mixture of racism and incompetence to think an unarmed 18 year old needs to be shot to be subdued, and then to suit up like you're being airlifted into Vietnam to patrol the streets of the town on whose behalf you are employed.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Justinian, I suppose I have to congratulate you on getting those links correct, but SIXTEEN of the things? One or other of us has to check every one of these, and not just to ensure they all link correctly. It's contentious stuff so we have to bear C7 in mind.
At least there were no YouTube links. I should be grateful.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
(btw, I'm with you on the story as you put it. Did these militarised cops think they were in Iraq?)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Justinian, I suppose I have to congratulate you on getting those links correct, but SIXTEEN of the things? One or other of us has to check every one of these, and not just to ensure they all link correctly. It's contentious stuff so we have to bear C7 in mind.
At least there were no YouTube links. I should be grateful.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
(btw, I'm with you on the story as you put it. Did these militarised cops think they were in Iraq?)
Sorry, didn't realise I was making trouble for you that way or I'd have gone with a few fewer.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Justinian, I suppose I have to congratulate you on getting those links correct, but SIXTEEN of the things? One or other of us has to check every one of these, and not just to ensure they all link correctly. It's contentious stuff so we have to bear C7 in mind.
At least there were no YouTube links. I should be grateful.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
(btw, I'm with you on the story as you put it. Did these militarised cops think they were in Iraq?)
Sorry, didn't realise I was making trouble for you that way or I'd have gone with a few fewer.
No trouble, just work. I understand you're seething (anyone should be) and links are far better than great chunks of potentially copyright-breaking text.
Thanks, Sioni Sais
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
There's more to this story than is apparent at first blush. I won't burden you with links, but apparently the teenager in question was videotaped moments before in what appears to be a convenience-store robbery in which he appears to have grabbed, shoved and threatened the sales clerk when confronted with the act.
That is not to say that the penalty for stealing a package of cigars should be death by a barrage of police bullets while kneeling in the street with your hands in the air -- it certainly should not.
All I'm saying is that the initial wave of "Oh, look what the nasty horrible police do in our town to an innocent young boy who was the apple of his parents' eye and so looking forward to starting college tomorrow" may need a rewrite.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
But the cop who killed him did not know about the robbery. As far as I can tell, Mike Brown was killed for walking down the middle of the road instead of the pavement. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
BTW, many thanks for those links Justinian. The story about the guy charged with bleeding on police uniforms was awesome. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
But the cop who killed him did not know about the robbery. As far as I can tell, Mike Brown was killed for walking down the middle of the road instead of the pavement.
Ah, but while the cop didn't know, Mike Brown knew. And Mike Brown may well have thought, erroneously, that the cop knew.
Might that not have had an impact on the way that Mike Brown behaved when Mike Brown was faced by a cop?
EDIT: This is not to say that the police response, especially the police response after the shooting, is all just fine and dandy. It's not. But a kid walking down the middle of the street after committing a robbery doesn't behave the same way as a kid walking down the middle of the street with no guilt in his mind when confronted with a cop, even if the particular cop doesn't know about the robbery yet.
[ 16. August 2014, 11:11: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah, but while the cop didn't know, Mike Brown knew. And Mike Brown may well have thought, erroneously, that the cop knew.
Might that not have had an impact on the way that Mike Brown behaved when Mike Brown was faced by a cop?
Sure, this is possible.
It's also possible that the claim that Mike Brown was shot whilst trying to gain control of the police officer's weapon is correct (which is about the only scenario in which shooting an unarmed man is justifiable).
You can do this with any isolated case - you can ask whether this or that might have happened, and given that we armchair pontificators never see the whole evidence, there are often holes that can be picked at.
But the individual case isn't really the point. When you look at the number of unarmed young black men shot by police, and compare it to the lack of unarmed young white men shot in similar circumstances, this is evidence of a problem. You can probably explain away an individual case, but it's just not credible that shootings of young men like Mike Brown happen every day without their being an underlying problem.
And all the armour, the tear gas, the tanks and the snipers? That's not the result of Ferguson. That is the cause of these kinds of shootings. How can you possibly serve and protect a community when you are marching through it like an occupying army?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I didn't deny systemic issues. Far from it.
But you can't put a "system" on trial in a court of law. You can't put it in a jail cell. You can't demote it or fire it.
So long as people are going to talk about what the cop did - the single, individual cop - and talk about 'justice' in terms of that single, individual cop, then it is perfectly proper to talk about what might have affected the interaction between the single, individual cop and the single, individual person that he shot.
And the individual case might not be 'the point' to you, but I bet it sure is to the cop, and the cop's family, and the family of the person who's dead.
[ 16. August 2014, 13:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
There's more to this story than is apparent at first blush. I won't burden you with links, but apparently the teenager in question was videotaped moments before in what appears to be a convenience-store robbery in which he appears to have grabbed, shoved and threatened the sales clerk when confronted with the act.
That is not to say that the penalty for stealing a package of cigars should be death by a barrage of police bullets while kneeling in the street with your hands in the air -- it certainly should not.
All I'm saying is that the initial wave of "Oh, look what the nasty horrible police do in our town to an innocent young boy who was the apple of his parents' eye and so looking forward to starting college tomorrow" may need a rewrite.
The current police story only asks more questions about the police than it answers. Questions it asks include:
1: Why not release this information ASAP?
2: Given that the killer didn't know about it, how is it relevant to the situation? Michael Brown was killed for jaywalking, not for robbery.
3: Given that Dorian Johnson has been on national TV repeatedly and not been interviewed by the police about the shooting, why now claim he's a suspect?
Even if Brown was the person on that video this is nothing more than a blatant attempt at distraction while dragging through the mud the name of someone unable to defend themself. And this is the sort of thing #iftheygunnedmedown was about.
My opinion? Not only is the robbery irrelevant to the actual story of an out of control police department trampling all over the rule of law. I wouldn't trust the Ferguson police if they told me it was raining.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The militarization of the police is a problem. SWAT teams are one thing. Putting regular police in tactical gear and armored personnel carriers is going overboard. Now, mark my words. Any chance that a demilitarization of the police likely ended last night.
Gov. Nixon removed the Ferguson police. He sent in state troopers. The state troopers marched with the protesters. Everybody praised the state police captain for how he handled the situation. What happened? Nightfall brought more rioting and looting in Ferguson. Police returned in riot gear and with armored personnel carriers.
For a large number of people and a majority of people in some places, what happened yesterday justified everything the police has done so far. Rioting and looting as a response to police overreacting? Nope. The police response now looks justified to contain the rioting and looting. Should have released the officers name earlier? Why? So, his home could be attacked the same way he liquor store Mike Brown allegedly robbed was looted while the supposedly fascist police sat and watched? Mike Brown was just an innocent black teenager walking down the street when a racist cop suddenly decided to stop, force in his car, and then shoot dead when he resisted? How likely is that story at the moment?
That said, I'm not saying that Wilson is blameless. Brown might have fought with Wilson over the gun, tried to get away, and then surrender. Wilson might have shot Brown while Brown was trying to surrender. If he did, Wilson is guilty of manslaughter. Personally, I'm waiting for the trial and jury verdict.
Why was there a rush to judgment over this? I suspected as soon as this story broke that there was something more to it than white police officer executes unarmed black teenager for walking down the street while black. Doesn't Wilson deserve due process. I know. I know. Mike Brown didn't get due process before he was executed in the street. Maybe, Mike Brown was executed in the street and Wilson will be convicted of a crime. My strong suspicion is Mike Brown didn't get due process because Mike Brown resisted arrest and attacked a police officer. Again, I may be wrong. I'm just going with what makes the most sense so far. We will see what the investigation reveals.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So long as people are going to talk about what the cop did - the single, individual cop - and talk about 'justice' in terms of that single, individual cop, then it is perfectly proper to talk about what might have affected the interaction between the single, individual cop and the single, individual person that he shot.
Huge numbers of people didn't come out and protest over the killing of Trayvon Martin, or over Mike Brown, because of particular concerns over those individual cases.
When people trust the police and the justice system, you don't get mass protests - you just get an investigation, and if appropriate a trial.
People aren't protesting because they think Officer Wilson should be tried for killing Mike Brown - they are protesting because they think that and they think that the only chance of a fair trial rather than a coverup is keeping the public spotlight on this case.
The killing of Mike Brown is the trigger, but the causes of the protests are the systemic issues.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So long as people are going to talk about what the cop did - the single, individual cop - and talk about 'justice' in terms of that single, individual cop, then it is perfectly proper to talk about what might have affected the interaction between the single, individual cop and the single, individual person that he shot.
Huge numbers of people didn't come out and protest over the killing of Trayvon Martin, or over Mike Brown, because of particular concerns over those individual cases.
When people trust the police and the justice system, you don't get mass protests - you just get an investigation, and if appropriate a trial.
People aren't protesting because they think Officer Wilson should be tried for killing Mike Brown - they are protesting because they think that and they think that the only chance of a fair trial rather than a coverup is keeping the public spotlight on this case.
The killing of Mike Brown is the trigger, but the causes of the protests are the systemic issues.
That is true.
HOWEVER, by the same token it is also distinctly not true that every time a black person is killed by a white person there is a protest. By your own logic, this can't possibly be the case - if there's a systemic problem, it means there are lots of such cases. And yet, only some of these cases generate protests. Why?
Let me suggest one reason that I suspect. I suspect the difference between the cases that generate protests and the cases that don't is that the protests arise when there's a perception that this time 'someone is getting away with something'.
So far so good. But what's the implication of that? The implication of that is that in the other cases, the perception is that perpetrators aren't getting away with it. That there's some due process.
There may well be a systemic issue in terms of violence against black youths happening too frequently, but the problem is it's hard to maintain that the cases that generate protests are emblematic of the precise systemic problem when they have a key difference from the 'systemic' cases - the very existence of the protest.
My suspicion is the difference is, as I've said, one of perception - that this time someone is 'getting away with it'. Here's the thing, though: maybe the reason they're 'getting away with it' on this occasion is because the perception of what they're supposed to have done isn't accurate.
Just because the perception is that this another case of a black kid wrongly killed, it doesn't mean that it was another case of a black kid wrongly killed. The black kid part is indisputable, as is the fact that he was killed, but not all killing is wrong. And maybe the reason that THIS is a protest-generating case is because the police haven't arrived at the same conclusion as the crowd over the facts. That certainly seems to be what happened with the Trayvon Martin shooting for example - and as more facts came to light, the police position started looking a lot more reasonable.
It can certainly happen that a crowd reaction is wrong. We don't have a lot of these kinds of riots in Australia, but we had
this one. Only problem being it was based on an outright lie. The aunt of the kid who killed his 2 friends persuaded him to blame it on the police. Only the police hadn't done it.
The fact that a bunch of people are angry doesn't mean their anger is directed correctly. If anything, if there is a perception of a 'systemic' problem, the odds are fairly good that the times they show their anger the most are precisely the times when their anger is misplaced.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
There's more to this story than is apparent at first blush. I won't burden you with links, but apparently the teenager in question was videotaped moments before in what appears to be a convenience-store robbery in which he appears to have grabbed, shoved and threatened the sales clerk when confronted with the act.
That is not to say that the penalty for stealing a package of cigars should be death by a barrage of police bullets while kneeling in the street with your hands in the air -- it certainly should not.
All I'm saying is that the initial wave of "Oh, look what the nasty horrible police do in our town to an innocent young boy who was the apple of his parents' eye and so looking forward to starting college tomorrow" may need a rewrite.
I have to agree with Leorning Cniht. The problem is that there is HUGE disparity in how black and white people, who commit the same crimes, are treated. A wealthy white kid can steal alcohol & kill a family of 4, wound his friends and get off because he’s affluent. (Truly! That was the reason for acquittal.)
Black people who commit crimes prove that Black people are scary and should be treated like potential criminals first and people second by law enforcement and society alike. White people (well, white men) who shoot up schools, universities, movie theatres and shopping malls, or blow up federal buildings with increasing frequency are sad victims of mental illness or extremist ideologies that the media seeks to provide context and understanding around. Black people are tossed in jail for relatively small drug violations yet rich white people who also deal or possess similar amounts of drugs are given community service or thrown into rehab with no criminal record.
The protests, rightfully so, are about this double standard. The response of the Fergueson Police Department hasn't helped things.
We continue to live in an extremely racist country that is in deep denial of our problem. The media is already painting Mike Brown as a violent thug who deserved his fate vs. a poor (white) police officer just doing his job. It's likely going to follow the Trayvon Martin case down the same road and the deeper issues of the disparities in law enforcement and justice are going to get swept under the rug.
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The militarization of the police is a problem. SWAT teams are one thing. Putting regular police in tactical gear and armored personnel carriers is going overboard. Now, mark my words. Any chance that a demilitarization of the police likely ended last night.
Gov. Nixon removed the Ferguson police. He sent in state troopers. The state troopers marched with the protesters. Everybody praised the state police captain for how he handled the situation. What happened? Nightfall brought more rioting and looting in Ferguson. Police returned in riot gear and with armored personnel carriers.
For a large number of people and a majority of people in some places, what happened yesterday justified everything the police has done so far. Rioting and looting as a response to police overreacting? Nope. The police response now looks justified to contain the rioting and looting.
First, sorry in advance to the hosts - I've kept it down to four links this time.
The first point is that there is a need for a police force. Every community contains a few scumbags, willing to take advantage. The problem is that the police department in question has demonstrated that it can't and won't do this.
The second point is that the armed police returned early last night - before the looters cut lose; the first report of looting I've been able to find was about an hour after that.
Most of the protesters? Weren't looting - quite the reverse. Here's another photo of protesters protecting the store. (There are others, but I'll spare the hosts).
So to me after a little research the timeline of last night looks pretty simple.
1: Someone decides to suppress the non-violent protest.
2: The police re-militarise and line up and possibly surround the protest.
3: This draws the police in from the surrounding areas, and all to the centre of the protest.
4: Scumbag opportunists take advantage of the fact that the police are all busy trying to turn a non-violent protest into a riot by robbing where the police now aren't as they are all busy intimidating protesters. They can therefore do things with near-impunity.
5: A lot of the protesters try to protect stores. They know that this isn't doing them any good. But they can't be everywhere.
6: Because the police being somewhere they make things worse means they can't be where they are needed to stop scumbags "For a large number of people and a majority of people in some places, what happened yesterday justified everything the police has done so far." This despite the fact this appears to be exactly the opposite of what happened last night.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
The situation is part and parcel of the vicious cycle of racism. African Americans have been mistreated badly (understatement for slavery) since forever. Today those who "protect and serve" in Ferguson (mainly white) know that African Americans have excellent reasons for being very angry whether they express it or not, so the police fear them and oppress them further. It is the same reason for the Jim Crow culture IMO. Get them before they get us. And keep getting them. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But you can't put a "system" on trial in a court of law.
It is done all the time. Both in prosecution and defence. "Culture of violence" anyone?
ISTM, the incidents which draw protest are those in which the police conduct is more obviously egregious, combined with press coverage and initial response.
quote:
The fact that a bunch of people are angry doesn't mean their anger is directed correctly. If anything, if there is a perception of a 'systemic' problem, the odds are fairly good that the times they show their anger the most are precisely the times when their anger is misplaced.
What? Perhaps I am particularly slow today, or it is the migraine, but I do not follow. Can you explain?
BTW, regarding the Trayvon Martin case, few facts were established. It simply became muddy enough for no clear conclusion. Which, ISTM, people are already attempting to do here.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
The protests, rightfully so, are about this double standard. The response of the Fergueson Police Department hasn't helped things.
I'm not sure the protests are about the double standard, or are primarily about race. I'm sure that's a huge factor, but I think there's been a growing awareness of the problems in the criminal injustice system in the USA for a while.
Before you can start fixing a problem, you generally have to have a large enough contingent of people who believe there is in fact a problem.
One of these days we're going to reach that point and start discussing solutions.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
People aren't protesting because they think Officer Wilson should be tried for killing Mike Brown - they are protesting because they think that and they think that the only chance of a fair trial rather than a coverup is keeping the public spotlight on this case.
Really? I haven't read anybody saying that. Do they think indictments are handed down within days after a crime taking place? They would be wrong. Do they think protests sometimes violent are a legitimate means of getting somebody indicted? It is no nor should it be.
quote:
originally posted by Curiosity killed:
The store looting wasn't stopped by the police, according to this article it was stopped by other protesters who were keeping it peaceful.
They tried to stop the looting.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
So to me after a little research the timeline of last night looks pretty simple.
Nobody tried to suppress a peaceful protest. Police were there to make sure a peaceful protest stayed peaceful. It did not. Police did nothing. Some of the protesters turned violent and started looting. Others tried to stop them.
The longer the protesters stay out there protesting the more they hurt their cause. It's that simple. Nothing good will come of them continuing to protest day and night. They should probably go home and let the justice system work. At minimum, they should confine their protests to daytime. Violence will continue. Looting will continue. The violence and looting will become the story. The militarized police will not be the story. Mike Brown won't be the story. Race relations won't be the story. People in the United States have only so much patience with protests like this before they turn on the protesters.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
But meanwhile the ultra right-wing loonies are going to have a field day with this -- spurred on, of course, by a certain fat loudmouth blowhard windbag whose name I won't mention.
"The percentage of blacks arrested is out of proportion to the percentage of whites arrested? Of course it is -- could it just be, perhaps, that blacks commit more crimes than whites? Lookie here: this 'gentle giant', this 'good kid' who wants nothing more than to go to college and make something of his life, is in reality no such thing. He's a thug and a hooligan who robs convenience stores and manhandles the poor clerk who dares to confront him. No wonder the police shot him. I'd have shot him too if I had been there with my gun and witnessed the crime. And what do the people do? Do they show shame over the fact that they threw their support behind this supposed 'good kid'? No. They go back to the convenience store and say to the clerk, 'You have the nerve to confront one of us when we take something from your store? Well, we'll give you something to confront. We'll loot and plunder until there's nothing left in your store.'"
Not that I'm writing the script for the fat loudmouth blowhard windbag to use on his radio show. But I don't have to -- I think you get the point I'm trying to make.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Really? I haven't read anybody saying that. Do they think indictments are handed down within days after a crime taking place? They would be wrong. Do they think protests sometimes violent are a legitimate means of getting somebody indicted? It is no nor should it be.
Perhaps you remember some of the recent rape prosecutions of popular high school football players? Steubenville, for example, where local police and prosecutors weren't going to take any action until forced into it by public pressure?
I'll happily agree with you that justice should be impartial, and that public protests and outrage shouldn't affect either the conduct of the investigation or the likelihood of a charge or conviction.
Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, and given the history of past abuses, black people in particular are well aware that we don't live in that world. And in the face of a police department whose first resort is to bring the tanks out, is it any wonder that the black community in Ferguson is skeptical about whether justice will be done?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The shooting happened a week ago. Homicide investigations take more than a week. What if the state and US attorney investigate and decide they can't win a conviction based on the evidence? Is that sufficient or does an indictment have to happen because of the protests? Is an indictment enough or must a conviction happen based on the rush to judgment that happened hours after the shooting? If Wilson is acquitted by a jury will than only be more evidence of a racist system?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The shooting happened a week ago. Homicide investigations take more than a week. What if the state and US attorney investigate and decide they can't win a conviction based on the evidence? Is that sufficient or does an indictment have to happen because of the protests? Is an indictment enough or must a conviction happen based on the rush to judgment that happened hours after the shooting? If Wilson is acquitted by a jury will than only be more evidence of a racist system?
It doesn't take police investigations and state attorneys to investigate police impartiality. The death of Michael Brown is one issue, relations between the community and the police that is supposed to serve them another.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Nobody tried to suppress a peaceful protest. Police were there to make sure a peaceful protest stayed peaceful. It did not.
It, so far as I can tell, stopped being a peaceful protest when the police attacked it. What should the protesters have done? And the single night the police practiced policing by consent rather than behaving like an occupying army the protest was peaceful.
quote:
Police did nothing. Some of the protesters turned violent and started looting. Others tried to stop them.
I ran through the timeline last night. The first report of looting I've been able to find was after the police decide the protest needed to be intimidated and suppressed.
In short Police did something. They moved all the police to intimidate and harrass a peaceful protest. The scumbags around the protest knew it and knew that because of the police being where they weren't needed there weren't any of them able to do their job and deal with crime.
I went through the timeline about this.
quote:
The longer the protesters stay out there protesting the more they hurt their cause. It's that simple. Nothing good will come of them continuing to protest day and night. They should probably go home and let the justice system work.
The local police department is literally one that has charged someone for bleeding on an officer's uniform after beating him up. When there aren't eyes on the town there effectively is no justice system that works.
The justice system can't work until it is freed from the people currently administering it.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The percentage of blacks arrested is out of proportion to the percentage of whites arrested? Of course it is -- could it just be, perhaps, that blacks commit more crimes than whites?
Ferguson has racial profiling on Stop-And-Search - and police are 50% more likely to find contraband on whites they stop and search than blacks.
quote:
Lookie here: this 'gentle giant', this 'good kid' who wants nothing more than to go to college and make something of his life, is in reality no such thing. He's a thug and a hooligan who robs convenience stores and manhandles the poor clerk who dares to confront him. No wonder the police shot him.
For some reason I'm more afraid of the policeman who gunned him down than I am of him. I wonder why that could be...
quote:
Not that I'm writing the script for the fat loudmouth blowhard windbag to use on his radio show. But I don't have to -- I think you get the point I'm trying to make.
That right wing blowhards will say what they want irrespective of the facts? And therefore should be ignored?
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
That right wing blowhards will say what they want irrespective of the facts? And therefore should be ignored?
Precisely. Facts never seem to bother them. If people, and especially the media, ignored the fat loudmouth blowhard windbag and his handmaidens in a certain Northern state and a certain chamber of Congress, the world would be a much better place.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Do they think indictments are handed down within days after a crime taking place? They would be wrong. Do they think protests sometimes violent are a legitimate means of getting somebody indicted? It is no nor should it be.
No, but if he weren't a cop he would have been arrested immediately, the judge would have set a really high bail, and he would have waited out the rest of the process in jail. Even if there wasn't *any* evidence, much less enough evidence to convict him. That is the reality of how our injustice system works for the Mundanes. See, for example, this story about someone who was in prison when his alleged crime took place. That's not the first time I've heard that story (although I think it is the first time I've heard of the prosecutor starting to behave when the media threatened to expose their actions). For the most part, prosecutors know that even if you're innocent they can force you to take a plea deal.
Even the cops admit it. I won't link to the Flex Your Rights video where a defense attorney and a cop explain why you should never talk to the police because it's long and I don't want to force the hosts to watch it, but it's easy enough to find if you're interested.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But you can't put a "system" on trial in a court of law.
It is done all the time. Both in prosecution and defence. "Culture of violence" anyone?
Oh, people can PRETEND to put a system on trial, and they do it all the time.
But you'll never find it listed as defendant. Funny that.
It's a wonderful distracting tactic - a distraction that the task of a trial is to either convict or acquit the person listed as defendant. Best used by a defence team trying to distract from the fact that their individual client is guilty, or by a prosecution team either trying to distract from the fact that they can't prove the defendant guilty or less interested in the individual defendant than in 'sending a message' - often before an election.
[ 16. August 2014, 23:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
It, so far as I can tell, stopped being a peaceful protest when the police attacked it. What should the protesters have done? And the single night the police practiced policing by consent rather than behaving like an occupying army the protest was peaceful.
No, that's not what happened. How did the police attack the protest? They allowed the looting to happen. Nobody was arrested despite rocks being thrown at police.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
In short Police did something. They moved all the police to intimidate and harrass a peaceful protest. The scumbags around the protest knew it and knew that because of the police being where they weren't needed there weren't any of them able to do their job and deal with crime.
Not what happened. The police watched the looting take place. The armored personnel carriers only came back after some of the protesters turned violent. I'm going why what I read on Slate, USA Today, and the AP story.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
The justice system can't work until it is freed from the people currently administering it.
In the US we have elections every 2 to 4 years.
quote:
originally posted by saysay:
No, but if he weren't a cop he would have been arrested immediately, the judge would have set a really high bail, and he would have waited out the rest of the process in jail.
Not everybody who shoots another person is arrested immediately. Nowhere in this country are police arrested and held without bail every single time deadly force is used. No amount of protesting in Ferguson, Missouri will change that. Nor should it.
quote:
originally posted by saysay:
attorney and a cop explain why you should never talk to the police
Don't talk to the police. It's your right not to talk to the police. I avoid interactions with the police. Main way I do that is not to commit any crimes. On the occasions I have been stopped by police, I've been respectful and promptly followed every legal command I've been given. Sometimes they let me go with a warning. Sometimes I've gotten a ticket. On those occasions I've gotten a ticket, the chances are zero that arguing with the cop would have changed his mind.
Don't I know some police are jerks with power? Absolutely I do. Don't I know that some police will provoke people. Absolutely I do. Don't I know that police harass people based on the clothes they wear and the company they keep. Absolutely I do. As a result...well...see the above paragraph.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
No, but if he weren't a cop he would have been arrested immediately, the judge would have set a really high bail, and he would have waited out the rest of the process in jail. Even if there wasn't *any* evidence, much less enough evidence to convict him. That is the reality of how our injustice system works for the Mundanes. ... For the most part, prosecutors know that even if you're innocent they can force you to take a plea deal.
Even the cops admit it.
No, they wouldn't, and they don't--certainly not as a matter of routine. Full disclosure: I live in St. Louis, Missouri (that's right folks, Ferguson is a suburb of), and I've had my share of encounters with cops good, bad, and nasty. And we're ethnic, so it isn't white privilege.
We are currently working with a case where someone got drunk and shot up his relative. The man lived, but will likely be disabled. Did they arrest and jail the shooter immediately? No. They investigated (it's been three months now). He turned himself in on advice of lawyer a month ago and was let go on bail. He is not waiting out his time in jail.
Nor is the woman charged with murder whom we also have something to do with. She's at home, also on bail.
I have met some awesome St. Louis area cops. I have met some totally asshole St. Louis area cops. The awesome vs. asshole issue has no correlation to the color of their skins. We have had good from both, and damn nasty behavior from both.
It's not that easy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
It, so far as I can tell, stopped being a peaceful protest when the police attacked it. What should the protesters have done? And the single night the police practiced policing by consent rather than behaving like an occupying army the protest was peaceful.
No, that's not what happened. How did the police attack the protest?
First they all turned up at the scene of a non-violent protest, with guns, and then tear gas.
quote:
They allowed the looting to happen.
Indeed. Had the cops been doing their jobs the way Ron Johnson demonstrated - about half a dozen of them there - they would have easily been able to prevent the looting which happened because they were too busy trying to hold a pissing contest with the looters.
quote:
Nobody was arrested despite rocks being thrown at police.
Good.
quote:
Not what happened. The police watched the looting take place. The armored personnel carriers only came back after some of the protesters turned violent. I'm going why what I read on Slate, USA Today, and the AP story.
And I'm going by actual eye witnesses with timestamps rather than press releases from the police. Primary sources rather than secondary.
Besides, that's not what the AP said. I've read a few of those feeds and they mention looting round midnight - they don't mention that the police were forming up en masse at the protest at 10pm at the latest (see previous links).
quote:
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
The justice system can't work until it is freed from the people currently administering it.
In the US we have elections every 2 to 4 years.
You think that an election in a single town is all it takes? You're cute.
quote:
Main way I do that is not to commit any crimes.
And, I assume, if you are an American, by being white. I've already linked the fact that in Ferguson black people get stopped and searched disproportionately despite the fact that white people stopped and searched are more than 50% more likely to have contraband on them.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The police were always there. The police are always armed. The police will always show up in force for demonstrations such as happened on Friday night.
The police couldn't stop the looting because they were having a pissing contest with the looters? That's just asinine. Hate to break it to you but Ron Johnson was in command of the police on Friday night.
If the protesters plan on protesting until whatever they think needs to be changed in the United States changes, they'll be there for a long time. They will accomplish nothing. Changing things in this country means changing the minds of those who disagree with you. Ignoring those who disagree with you as you suggest upthread will accomplish nothing.
Personally, I want looters and those who throw rocks and Molotov cocktails to be arrested. I'm not in the minority. So far, Gov. Nixon has handled this situation brilliantly (from a political standpoint). Couple more nights like Friday and Saturday and Gov. Nixon will find out that a majority of Missourians expect looters and rioters to be arrested as well.
I don't think Twitter is a very reliable source.
[ 17. August 2014, 17:02: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I want looters and those who throw rocks and Molotov cocktails to be arrested. . . . Couple more nights like Friday and Saturday and Gov. Nixon will find out that a majority of Missourians expect looters and rioters to be arrested as well.
I don't think Twitter is a very reliable source.
Amen, amen, amen! The rise of social media has not done the public dialog a service.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Personally, I want looters and those who throw rocks and Molotov cocktails to be arrested. I'm not in the minority.
And I want police who abuse their authority arrested and courts to treat each case as if they were colour-blind.
Which do you think has greater odds of occurring?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
orfeo,
You, of course, have no obligation, but I am still interested in hearing your answer.
quote:
Originally posted by lilbuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The fact that a bunch of people are angry doesn't mean their anger is directed correctly. If anything, if there is a perception of a 'systemic' problem, the odds are fairly good that the times they show their anger the most are precisely the times when their anger is misplaced.
What? Perhaps I am particularly slow today, or it is the migraine, but I do not follow. Can you explain?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Not everybody who shoots another person is arrested immediately. Nowhere in this country are police arrested and held without bail every single time deadly force is used. No amount of protesting in Ferguson, Missouri will change that. Nor should it.
I agree with you that nowhere in this country are police arrested every single time deadly force is used. I agree that no amount of protesting in Ferguson, Missouri will change that. I agree that it shouldn't change that.
For the most part I agree with the policy that places a police officer on paid leave while their use of force is investigated. I know things are different in different parts of the country, so perhaps you already have this, but I would like to see more citizen and community involvement in determining whether or not the use of force was justified. I would also like to make it easier to remove a bad police officer from the force. This binary where either a police officer who has used deadly force is cleared of all charges and allowed to remain on the force or is subject to a civil criminal trial is not working. Let's try something different.
(I would also like to see the police treat citizens with the same respect in terms of investigating before arresting instead of arresting and charging on the basis of the fact that you fit the description of the suspect and happened to be somewhere near the scene of the crime).
quote:
quote:
originally posted by saysay:
attorney and a cop explain why you should never talk to the police
Don't talk to the police. It's your right not to talk to the police.
I wanted you to watch the video so you could hear a cop admit to the deceptive tactics and Hannity-like logic the police sometimes use on unsuspecting citizens. But perhaps you already know that.
quote:
I avoid interactions with the police. Main way I do that is not to commit any crimes.
Lucky you. You're a white man who is lucky enough to be able to afford to live in an area where there is very little crime and the police aren't in your neighborhood with some regularity.
I spoke with a police officer earlier this week. We've had a mysterious resurgence in shootings, and I heard the police helicopter and went outside to see if I could see anything useful. When I saw the cop turn down my court I tried to hurry back inside because my interactions with police have been such that while I know most of them are good, the nasty ones are so nasty that I'm scared of what type I'm going to get. But he waved me over and I tried to answer his questions honestly without getting too physically close (and into the danger zone if he was one of the bad ones). When I started to leave another neighbor came up to talk to him about what others in the neighborhood watch had witnessed.
I hate that. I hate that I am currently in a position where I'm so afraid of cops that I have to be the community asshole who won't talk to them no matter what crime they've witnessed.
quote:
On the occasions I have been stopped by police, I've been respectful and promptly followed every legal command I've been given.
And what do you do when they give you an illegal command?
quote:
Sometimes they let me go with a warning. Sometimes I've gotten a ticket. On those occasions I've gotten a ticket, the chances are zero that arguing with the cop would have changed his mind.
Sounds like your interactions with the police have been the result of traffic violations. I've had the same experiences when it comes to traffic violations.
However, I've also wound up with bruises all up and down my arms and on my breasts as the result of an encounter with a very angry cop who was patrolling a neighborhood that I happened to be in. I was visiting a friend, and when the friend started acting too angrily and like he might be on the verge of violence, I left. Only to encounter a cop who was acting the same way. He told me that I had to answer his questions (lie: I could have asked if I was being detained and walked away). I told him that I would answer his questions, but asked him to please stop talking to me the way he was. The situation went downhill from there.
quote:
Don't I know some police are jerks with power? Absolutely I do. Don't I know that some police will provoke people. Absolutely I do. Don't I know that police harass people based on the clothes they wear and the company they keep. Absolutely I do. As a result...well...see the above paragraph.
And how do you reconcile that with Matthew 25:35-40? Last time I checked, I thought you were called to some sort of service...
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The police were always there.
Some police were always there. At 10pm dozens more police arrived and formed up into a battle line. If you don't see the difference between half a dozen police and three dozen police, that's your issue.
quote:
The police are always armed.
This is a problem the United States has.
quote:
The police will always show up in force for demonstrations such as happened on Friday night.
Some police will always show up.
quote:
The police couldn't stop the looting because they were having a pissing contest with the looters? That's just asinine.
Breaking News: Beeswax Altar thinks that individual cops can be in two places at once!
quote:
Hate to break it to you but Ron Johnson was in command of the police on Friday night.
Hate to break it to you, but Ron Johnson needs to sleep. And was asleep at the escalation point. "Standing alongside Nixon on Saturday, Johnson tried hard to explain that the teargas was set off by one officer acting independently."
And no prizes for working out whether that policeman was from Ferguson or the Highway Patrol.
Once an officer, acting independently, has attacked the crowd with tear gas, what do you expect to happen?
quote:
If the protesters plan on protesting until whatever they think needs to be changed in the United States changes, they'll be there for a long time. They will accomplish nothing. Changing things in this country means changing the minds of those who disagree with you. Ignoring those who disagree with you as you suggest upthread will accomplish nothing.
In short your advice to them is to sit down, shut up, and trust in the system that is manifestly failing.
quote:
Personally, I want looters and those who throw rocks and Molotov cocktails to be arrested.
I don't disagree. I also want the officer who acted independently and assaulted the entire crowd with tear gas to be arrested. I want the officer who gunned down a man to lose his badge. And I want the Ferguson PD, who are manifestly unable to keep order, to be replaced.
quote:
I don't think Twitter is a very reliable source.
I don't consider the AP reliable either. But Twitter with pictures can at least establish timestamps. This is why the twitter comments I'm linking normally have photographs or vine-video attached.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No, they wouldn't, and they don't--certainly not as a matter of routine. Full disclosure: I live in St. Louis, Missouri (that's right folks, Ferguson is a suburb of), and I've had my share of encounters with cops good, bad, and nasty. And we're ethnic, so it isn't white privilege.
We are currently working with a case where someone got drunk and shot up his relative. The man lived, but will likely be disabled. Did they arrest and jail the shooter immediately? No. They investigated (it's been three months now). He turned himself in on advice of lawyer a month ago and was let go on bail. He is not waiting out his time in jail.
Nor is the woman charged with murder whom we also have something to do with. She's at home, also on bail.
I'm willing to admit that there may be some regional and state variations when it comes to these sorts of things. I've already linked to it, but this is the sort of thing common where I live (the uncommon part is the part where they let him out of jail instead of forcing him to wait for a trial or accept a plea bargain).
I've met people who have spent ten days in prison because they told a police officer their name was (for example) Toya instead of Latoya. They consider themselves lucky because they actually got public defenders willing to go to bat for them. I know someone who spent several months in prison because she was on probation and her probation officer told her that he knew that every Friday she crossed the state line to pick up her kids and every Sunday she crossed the state line to drop off her kids so she didn't have to get his permission every week. Unfortunately, she didn't get it in writing and got pulled over in Maryland for a burnt-out tail-light. I could go on and on and on with stories like this.
Maybe things aren't that bad in MO. I've only ever driven through, so I couldn't say.
quote:
I have met some awesome St. Louis area cops. I have met some totally asshole St. Louis area cops. The awesome vs. asshole issue has no correlation to the color of their skins. We have had good from both, and damn nasty behavior from both.
It's not that easy.
I'm not the one arguing that the awesome vs. asshole issue is correlated to the color of anyone's skin.
I'm the one arguing that the biggest issue we should be dealing with is the militarization of the police and the fact that some police departments are being given military equipment contingent on that equipment being used within a certain time frame. (not that I've made that argument within this thread yet or anything, but everybody's always expecting me to be psychic and punishing me when I'm not, so, you know...)
I'm also arguing for more community mediation and community corrections before we start trapping people in systems they can never escape.
I'm also arguing for more prosecutorial transparency and oversight because most of the prosecutors I've known are most certainly not members of the communities they are supposed to serve. And, as one defense attorney helpfully informed me, they are under no obligation to tell the truth to a judge or in court documents. You have to take an oath under penalty of perjury, but they can say whatever the hell they want without worrying they will ever face any negative consequences.
I figure that'll do to start with.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Saysay, we're back to the plural of anecdote not being data. All I'm trying to do here is say that there are no hard-and-fast rules for how to make everything better in a case like Ferguson.
Has my family personally been abused by police? Yes. Has my family personally been helped by police? Yes. Do things need to get better? Hell yes.
But I don't see any way of doing it except the old, hard way--assess each situation individually, find the root problem that allowed it to happen, set in place safeguards against that happening again, and move on to the next hellhole. Where the basic problem may be somewhat different.
And that requires honest, hardworking people who are basically boots-on-the-ground and have the time and the funding to do things right. Regardless of what shitstorm the media might be blowing up. Regardless of what Twitter etc. are going to say about their actions, because there is no way in hell that the full truth of the situation is going to be posted on Facebook for everybody to see.
If you do this kind of work, you are going to be misunderstood. You are going to be vilified, even threatened. No matter what the fuck you do, you will be wrong. And that goes for Ferguson as well--for leaders on both sides, police and protesters.
It's so damned easy to say what ought to happen until you're there, in charge.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
I completely agree with that post (well, except for the plural of anecdote not being data seeing as how I am trying to humanize actual data with anecdotes, but whatever).
I just wish the feds would stop making doing that kind of work somewhere in between difficult and impossible.
And I do think that inasmuch as some of these problems are being caused by the federal government, there are enough similarities in the problems we're having that we may be able to find common solutions that at least help some of these problems in more than one hellhole.
But people are people. Nobody wants to stop playing the blame game long enough to discuss potential solutions.
So be it.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
The police are always armed.
This is a problem the United States has.
And in the US context, there is rather a difference between a police officer wearing his sidearm and one carrying a rifle or grenade launcher.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
And in the US context, there is rather a difference between a police officer wearing his sidearm and one carrying a rifle or grenade launcher.
And for some weird reason the federal government is helping local police get access to these weapons. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
orfeo,
You, of course, have no obligation, but I am still interested in hearing your answer.
quote:
Originally posted by lilbuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The fact that a bunch of people are angry doesn't mean their anger is directed correctly. If anything, if there is a perception of a 'systemic' problem, the odds are fairly good that the times they show their anger the most are precisely the times when their anger is misplaced.
What? Perhaps I am particularly slow today, or it is the migraine, but I do not follow. Can you explain?
I'm not going to try a long answer again, as that didn't appear to work.
I'll try the short answer.
Cases that generate protests are, by the very fact of having generated a protest, atypical.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Damn. Whatever we have, we certainly have a couple of brain-removed idiots who just arrested some reporters in a McDonald's.
I take it back. I don't live here. I'm a Californian temporarily displaced.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
Some police were always there. At 10pm dozens more police arrived and formed up into a battle line. If you don't see the difference between half a dozen police and three dozen police, that's your issue.
And if you can't see the difference in 10PM and the early hours of the morning especially when looting and rioting had happened previously, that's your issue.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
Breaking News: Beeswax Altar thinks that individual cops can be in two places
No...once again...the police literally watched as the looting happened. Watched the looters take stuff from the stores. Had nothing to do with them being somewhere else. I still have no clue what your getting at with that asinine nonsense about police not being able to stop the looting because they were having a pissing contest with the looters. Even The Guardian, that beloved rag of the British Left, notes in the link you provide above:
quote:
But the euphoria faded fast. Late on Friday, pockets of rioting brought back the armoured trucks, riot gear and teargas. Later still, after police retreated, small crowds began looting shops, most notably one where Brown allegedly shoplifted cigars before he died.
The rioting brought back the armored trucks, riot gear and tear gas. That's from your source.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
Once an officer, acting independently, has attacked the crowd with tear gas, what do you expect to happen?
The rioting and looting was already happening. The police pulled back and the looters loot and the rioters riot. The looters looted and the rioters rioted. The police let them riot again on Saturday. They started shooting one another.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
In short your advice to them is to sit down, shut up, and trust in the system that is manifestly failing.
Why because they haven't imprisoned the police officer for life in the week since the shooting occurred? Protests that lead to looting and rioting change nothing. The more it continues the more public opinion will turn on the protesters. The police can forcibly end the protests any time they desire In establishing a curfew, Gov. Nixon is trying to save the protesters from themselves. He is also trying to cover his ass politically. Eventually, Nixon will have to decide if he lets the riots and looting continue or orders the police to restore order and that's a lose-lose situation for a Democratic governor in Missouri. Republicans have loved riots ever since 1968.
quote:
originally posted by Justinian:
I don't consider the AP reliable either. But Twitter with pictures can at least establish timestamps. This is why the twitter comments I'm linking normally have photographs or vine-video attached.
What they and you then lack is the big picture.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: I have met some awesome St. Louis area cops. I have met some totally asshole St. Louis area cops.
I don't think it's just a case of good cops – bad cops here. From what I've seen, the police force seemed untrained or unprepared to handle a crowd situation. I'm not an expert, but I've seen them fuck up in some very basic things, spectacularly so. Added to this, I have the feeling that the possession of some ridiculously inapproptiate weaponry gave rise to some kind of macho culture within the police, which led to the situation we saw last week. Really, I don't think this is that hard.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by saysay:
This binary where either a police officer who has used deadly force is cleared of all charges and allowed to remain on the force or is subject to a civil criminal trial is not working.
You mean like in New York where the police who killed Sean Bell were acquitted of all charges but were subsequently fired?
quote:
originally posted by saysay:
And how do you reconcile that with Matthew 25:35-40? Last time I checked, I thought you were called to some sort of service...
As long as police officers are human, the nature of the job will attract some jerks. Nothing I can do about that. If I were a brilliant engineer perhaps I could invent a law enforcement robot that was easy to mass produce. Doesn't matter if the jerk gets fired or not. The best way to avoid getting beaten or shot is to not commit a crime, do what they say, and not disrespect them. Talking back to them isn't going to stop them from harassing you. Violence isn't going to get you off. Will doing all that assure that no cop will harm you? Obviously not but it makes it less likely. You can assert your rights if the police officer oversteps his bounds. The officer may disagree and try to arrest you. Best thing to do is make that as easy as possible. The time to argue is when you have a lawyer. I know the legal system doesn't always work in every single situation. Fighting with the police in the street isn't going to fix that. On the contrary, fighting either verbally or physically will only add to the misery. After all, you are worried the prosecutor is going to force you into a plea bargain. Why risk giving him the ammunition?
Again, no amount of protesting in Ferguson, Missouri will change any of that. Rioting and looting will only reinforce it.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
some kind of macho culture within the police
Watching the cable TV show COPS (which I can't bear to watch anymore), as well as an indelible memory from years ago of a New York City policeman harassing a poor homeless man in Penn Station who was old enough to be his father*, has led me to the conclusion that cops are bullies acting under protection of law. I want nothing to do with them.
* Had the cop spoken to his father the way he spoke to the homeless man, he would have been dragged behind the shed for a swift application of the belt across his backside.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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