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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sex education = Child abuse?
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I've got a particular friend on Facebook who is a highly conservative Catholic, as such my newsfeed is often filled with dead horses. Lately though they have been sharing and stating a number of memes whuch essentially equate sex education with child abuse.
The justification is that it is overly graphic and encourages children to have sex and has not succeeded in lowering teen pregnancy. I also think a lot of the opposition is related to well trodden paths around Catholic opinions on other dead horses which the UK curriculum does not support..
I personally think this is a thoroughly wrong headed opinion. I never felt encouraged to have sex by the sex ed I recieved. I feel it far more sensible to give young people sound and structured advice. What do shipmates make of this?
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I don't know about the UK, but teen pregnancy rates in the US have been falling for at least the last decade. If sex ed does encourage sexual activity, one would expect teen pregnancy rates to rise.
But, as someone famous once observed, you cannot reason someone out of a proposition they were not reasoned into, so I suspect that efforts to use statistics or reason on your friend will prove futile.
As to child abuse, surely enforced ignorance about the normal results of normal activities deserves that label?
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Unfriend them Macrina - they won't change their views if you argue with them, but you will save yourself a lot of stress if you keep well away.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The only graphic sex ed I've ever taught is nasty photographic images of STIs. The rest is all about understanding the emotional challenges of relationships and parenthood, sexual organs, menstrual cycle, what actually happens when someone becomes pregnant, how the foetus develops in utero (and researching abortion) and the effectiveness or not of different contraceptive methods. The next lot I am about to write is also going to include consent as a major issue, and different sexualities. This is a sex and relationships unit for PSHE.
But this is for 14-16 year olds, several of whom are far from innocent.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
IIRC, the more sex ed a child receives, the later they tend to have sex. I don't know if that means they're more or less likely to stay virgins until marriage, which may be something that concerns the RCs.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
It can be abusive if it is taught wrongly. Well taught, like Ck... describes is anything but abusive, in fact it could help to reduce abuse.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The sex ed here is direct, factual info, starting in grade 3, 8 years old. It progresses further from there. The information that most have viewed pornography by age 12 means it is important to start early. I think it is wrong not to answer questions and provide info. Just do it at the level appropriate to the age and maturity of kids.
I would equate this to whether information about banking and finance is child abuse. It is just info, just gear it to age of kids, ie save compound interest and credit discussions to a little later.
Sex ed empowers people to have control of their lives and to make choices. Just as finance info does.
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\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
At a city near here, the governing board just tears pages out of the textbooks if they don't like them. quote:
The Gilbert Public Schools governing board voted Tuesday night to remove pages from an honors biology textbook because it does not give preference to childbirth or adoption over abortion.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
It can be abusive if it is taught wrongly. Well taught, like Ck... describes is anything but abusive, in fact it could help to reduce abuse.
Agreed. Wouldn't want to make a call without seeing the curriculum itself.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Nobody in their right mind thinks it's necessary to encourage teenagers to have sex.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Proper sex education consists of only two words: I do.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Proper sex education consists of only two words: I do.
I struggle to comprehend that this could actually be anyone's opinion.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
First, it is a sarcastic, hyperbolic extension of the anti-sex education position.
Second, where do people who do not believe sex education is appropriate for teenagers then educate their children?
Do you mean "the talk"? Highly effective and complete that is.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...where do people who do not believe sex education is appropriate for teenagers then educate their children?
In my case, it just wasn't taught when I was in school. Everything I always wanted to know about sex but was afraid to ask was taught to me through church. At one church (when I was about 13-15) our youth group had a series of speakers. Each evening the guest speaker gave a talk to us and our parents, then the parents went to another room and the speaker spoke just with the kids and included questions and answers. (Parental permission was required in advance.) Then at another church (I was then 15-17) our junior Altar Guild went on a camping trip and our Rector's wife gave us a very detailed "talk" with lots of discussion. At both churches it was pretty straight forward with facts, not moralizing.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
First, it is a sarcastic, hyperbolic extension of the anti-sex education position.
Second, where do people who do not believe sex education is appropriate for teenagers then educate their children?
Do you mean "the talk"? Highly effective and complete that is.
Well, no. You don't have one "the talk" and consider the matter discussed. You talk constantly about what you are all seeing on TV and in the movies and out in the world and are hearing in songs, etc. and what you think about it.
The sexual education curriculum my church ran (which I was fortunately spared having to go through) was investigated by one of the national news shows because several of the area psychologists and psychiatrists considered showing pictures and videos that graphic to children that young constituted a form of sexual abuse. (And the parents were not given the opportunity to review the curriculum in advance.)
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
In the United States, there was a religious right fostered effort to make sex education skip information about contraception and avoidance of sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence only sex education and teen age pregnancy measurement shows that such education causes a higher rate of teen-age pregnancy. There are a number of surveys which show this and it is believed to be a cause of the higher rate of teen pregnancy among teens of the religious right. You might consider depriving children of the knowledge they need to make safe decisions a form of child abuse.
I doubt you'll get anywhere by showing the facts to such people. It's a political movement to hold that position in the U.S. and I suspect you're seeing the export of that with lots of scare propaganda unrelated to facts.
After all, it's not enough that children are given the facts and knowledge to make decisions on their own. It's much more important that they pretend to obey their elders.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
As a point of information, the Torlets laugh at the level of sex education provided by the "Christian ethos" academy some of their friends go to, which amounts to (and using the exact words) "keeping your fire in the box".
And this in an area notorious for a high level of teenage pregnancy. Just what is the lesser evil here?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
At a city near here, the governing board just tears pages out of the textbooks if they don't like them. quote:
The Gilbert Public Schools governing board voted Tuesday night to remove pages from an honors biology textbook because it does not give preference to childbirth or adoption over abortion.
The principle seems reasonable; the action seems bit short sighted. Better to use it as a teaching opportunity.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Once, long ago and in another universe entirely, I co-wrote a policy document and Sex & Sexual Health curriculum for kids looked after by the local authority - starting at age 5 or 6 with issues of personal safety and body ownership and growing into full blown sex-education in teenage years - this was all because it was, in those days, required by the Guidance and Regulations documents of the Children Act 1980, then in force.
One of our great regrets was that we could not make it apply to all kids within the local authority area but just those in our care.
At the Committee meeting where our political overlords were discussing and approving the issue we received remarkably little flak about it, presumably because it was clearly stated within the regulations that this was a statutory requirement. What we did get was one elected member saying that he wanted to be assured that staff who in all conscience felt they couldn't work within the confines of the document would be treated well - senior officer sitting next to me turned to be and whispered "Yeah, we'll sack 'em!"
Kids have a right to knowledge about their own bodies as this is one sure tool against abuse!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
The sex education I had at school in the 1990s was pretty minimal. I suppose it covered the basics. I think there was probably an issue with teenagers not really connecting boring biology diagrams with what they were getting up to in their personal lives. Almost everything I know about sex actually came from magazines like Just Seventeen. Those magazines were problematic in all sorts of ways, but one thing that they did do very well was get their audience informed about sexual health. This included real world situations, like how to respond to a partner who is putting pressure on for stuff you don't want to do, how to stay strong in the face of peer pressure, and constant myth debunking. I think this stuff is probably more important for avoiding unwanted pregnancies and STIs than covering the basic biology. Over and over again the message was "here are the facts, but you do not have to do this. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to do this." I think these days this ground is covered by websites like Scarleteen and the Planned Parenthood site.
Most people understand what PIV intercourse is by the time they hit puberty, and they understand that it can lead to pregnancy. What they don't tend to have a great understanding of, is how to navigate a world in which adults suddenly lust after them, their hormones are raging, there's a massive amound of peer pressure and competition and every choice feels like it could go wrong and lead to being ostracised. Anyone who doesn't learn to deal with this stuff is incredibly vulnerable to actual abuse.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
As I remember it, we had one "sex-education" lesson, when we were aged about 13, which involved one of the female Guidance Teachers telling us about menstruation (which most of us had started by then anyway). Reproduction was only mentioned when it appeared on the science syllabus (at about the same time), and contraception not at all.
[frivolous aside ON]
When D. was the music teacher in an infant school (5 and 6-year-olds), a Very Earnest Parent approached her son's class teacher (who had a wicked sense of humour) and asked when her son's sex-education would start. The teacher didn't miss a beat: "He has Mr. D. for music, what more do you want?"
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
[/frivolous aside OFF]
[ 10. November 2014, 15:15: Message edited by: Piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
It seems to me that the person in the OP is more likely to be 'abusive' in that he might indoctrinate his child to be anti-sex, anti-people-he-deems-to-be-immoral and probably to loathe their own bodies. (There was a time when some RCs were taught not to look at their own naked bodies when bathing and not to touch their private parts when urinating.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I had a friend who was a Catholic priest, and he told me that the older priests had been taught to sprinkle talcum powder in their bath, to avoid visual contamination with the grisly bits!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As a point of information, the Torlets laugh at the level of sex education provided by the "Christian ethos" academy some of their friends go to, which amounts to (and using the exact words) "keeping your fire in the box".
And this in an area notorious for a high level of teenage pregnancy. Just what is the lesser evil here?
Sadly, the same may be said for the secularized version taught in our public schools here in the US.
When my public-school age kids entered the grade where sex ed plays into the curriculum, they brought home the required documents for parental signature along with the date of a parent info night when we could preview the curriculum. Having been warned by all my homeschooling friends of the dangers of this *promiscuous-promoting scandalous secular-humanist agenda* I signed the form but went to the poorly-attended parent night to see what all the fuss was about.
The curriculum-- the one I had to sign a parent release form for my child to be exposed to-- was all about aviary and reptilian reproduction. They didn't even begin to discuss human reproduction until well into high school, and then only fetal development, not a word about how the fetus got there much less contraception. Of course, by waiting until high school most of the students could teach that component as an extra credit assignment...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Sadly, the same may be said for the secularized version taught in our public schools here in the US.
My kids were present at the birth of their younger siblings, so they have no confusion about where babies come from. This has led to some "interesting" conversations with the rather coy parents of some of their friends.
Of course, Eldest did go through a phase, aged 7-8, of talking about people "mating" - but I blame David Attenborough for that.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
"keeping your fire in the box".
Proverbs 6:27 "Can a man take fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned?"
Which in turn reminds me of the old joke:
"Do you smoke after sex?"
"I've never looked".
Well, back to the sensible grown-up discussion.....
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Sadly, the same may be said for the secularized version taught in our public schools here in the US.
From what I can tell in talking to people, there's way too much variation in how the curricula are written and implemented to be able to generalize much. Although I have found the far left tendency to conflate abstinence and abstinence-only curricula distinctly unhelpful in trying to get sex ed into places where it's needed.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As a point of information, the Torlets laugh at the level of sex education provided by the "Christian ethos" academy some of their friends go to, which amounts to (and using the exact words) "keeping your fire in the box".
Me (after daughter had heard a Christian youth talk on sex): So, what did the speaker tell you about sex?
Dau: He said it was like petrol. If you splash petrol around it's dangerous. But if you put it in a car, it's safe. Sex is the same; the best place for sex is in a car.
Me: Are you sure he didn't say, the best place for petrol is in a car and the best place for sex is within marriage?
(Thoughful pause)
Dau: Maybe that is what he meant?
Me: ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Although I have found the far left tendency to conflate abstinence and abstinence-only curricula distinctly unhelpful in trying to get sex ed into places where it's needed.
When you say "far left", do you mean actual Communists, or do you mean "vaguely routed in the Social Democratic ethos of most western European countries"?
Either way, I think you're going to have to unpack that a little.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
25 + years ago when I was helping with a junior youth club we bowed to pressure and accepted a talk from a member of the congregation who was a 'trained Christian sex educator'.
God, what a shambles. The most embarrassed person was the so-called educator - she couldn't even being herself to say the word SEX but instead spelled it out. The youth (aged 11-14) thought this was hysterical at first.
In a nutshell: sex ('S-E-X') was inherently dirty: only for married couples, only if they wanted to 'make a little Christian', only after they had had a bath (?), only in the dark, only after they had prayed together for God's blessing on 'the act'.
Moving into other terriroty, one of her pet themes was that girls should avoid using tampons to 'avoid compromising their virginity' or to thoughts about intercourse; another was that boys must sleep with their hands above the bedclothes. Above all she opined that children couldn't have 'close' friends of the opposite gender because this would only lead to thoughts of sex which was sinful and led to sex which was even more sinful as an act than the thought.
It was at this point that one of the youth - all of 13 - decided she'd had enough and told the 'educator' in no uncertain terms that she, the educator, must have the dirtiest mind ever since all she seemed to think about was sin and sex.
IMO the whole approach of this nutter was potentially abusive: and I'm told they're still giving their little talk to children attached to an evangelical church.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
L'organist: quote:
It was at this point that one of the youth - all of 13 - decided she'd had enough and told the 'educator' in no uncertain terms that she, the educator, must have the dirtiest mind ever since all she seemed to think about was sin and sex.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) to that 13-year-old. I hope she got a round of applause instead of a bollocking for being cheeky to the speaker?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Yes, Jane R. Helen was a bright, funny girl - now a GP with her own family (planned).
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
L'organist: only after they had had a bath (?)
What's strange about this?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
L'organist: only after they had had a bath (?)
What's strange about this?
Making it a moral issue, I expect.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Dau: He said it was like petrol. If you splash petrol around it's dangerous. But if you put it in a car, it's safe. Sex is the same; the best place for sex is in a car.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Although I have found the far left tendency to conflate abstinence and abstinence-only curricula distinctly unhelpful in trying to get sex ed into places where it's needed.
When you say "far left", do you mean actual Communists, or do you mean "vaguely routed in the Social Democratic ethos of most western European countries"?
Either way, I think you're going to have to unpack that a little.
Well, as an American talking to another American, I meant the far left as it applies in this country. Like, the type of people who read and write Huffington Post and Salon and think them the most reliable news sources.
The have a distinct tendency to conflate abstinence curricula (curricula which emphasize abstinence as the only sure-fire way to prevent pregnancy and STDs) and abstinence-only curricula (which do not teach any other forms of birth control).
I do not find this helpful. I was taught sex ed in my public high school by a representative from
Planned Parenthood. They used a modified AYS curriculum (AYS without the graphic pictures and films). The curriculum was seriously pushing the community's standards of acceptability.
People in West Virginia have heard about some of these curricula and the majority reject their teachings. But the far left's insistence that there ought to be a federal law that mandates that kind of curriculum makes it difficult for me to get any curriculum into classrooms.
And their teen pregnancy rate is so high that they could really use a curriculum that emphasizes abstinence but also discusses other forms of birth control (but steers clear of the controversial issues) into classrooms.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
saysay: Well, as an American talking to another American, I meant the far left as it applies in this country. Like, the type of people who read and write Huffington Post and Salon and think them the most reliable news sources.
They are far left? You need to get out more. I've met much more radical left-wing types, even from your country.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Well, as an American talking to another American, I meant the far left as it applies in this country. Like, the type of people who read and write Huffington Post and Salon and think them the most reliable news sources.
Oh, you mean normal people. Okay, carry on.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Does America not have an authentic socialist political movement at all then ? Just the equivalent of Ken Clarke types in their left wing politics ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Not as far as I can tell. Mostly we have rich white people determined to hold onto their wealth and status and power by any means necessary. This includes all politicians.
And a couple of communes for people who have given up on interacting with the world.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Doublethink.: Does America not have an authentic socialist political movement at all then ?
It does. I've met some of them.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
A couple of people likely attempting to flee the country and become expats do not constitute a movement.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
saysay: A couple of people likely attempting to flee the country and become expats do not constitute a movement.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) None of the people I've met were attempting to flee the country or become expats.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Does America not have an authentic socialist political movement at all then ? Just the equivalent of Ken Clarke types in their left wing politics ?
It depends on how "left" you mean. A real, socialist left did exist in the form of Eugene Debs, the Socialist Party of America and the Industrial Workers of the World (the Wobblies), but it did not prosper after the first "Red Scare" after WWI. Debs was convicted of sedition and spent ten years in prison. The IWW and the Socialist Party still exist, but their back was broken and they never recovered.
After that the Left redirected its efforts to the Democratic Party and the result was the New Deal.
Interestingly, when the agrarian and socialist Left petered out in the US, it reappeared in Canada, organized by the same people. The result was the CCF, elected in Saskatchewan in 1944. Four of the 1944 CCF MLA's were American citizens who had voted for Eugene Debs, and who had come north.
The CCF/NDP has two mommies; while many thing our primary parent is the British Labour Party, in reality the more influential parent is the Socialist Party of America and American agrarian Socialism.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Does America not have an authentic socialist political movement at all then ? Just the equivalent of Ken Clarke types in their left wing politics ?
The most left wing politician on the national stage is probably Bernie Sanders, the junior senator from Vermont. He's effectively a Democrat, although nominally independent, and describes himself as a socialist.
His brother Larry is standing for Oxford West and Abingdon for the Green Party in next year's election.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I think I saw a chart on Andrew Sullivans web site saying that U.S. Democrats are now functionally about where British Tories are since the party has moved so far right.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Back to sex education:
My sons prep school had excellent sex-ed with separate sessions for boys and girls to cover some topics (mainly, I think, to get over the tiresome giggling) and whole class for others. The children's opinion was that it was streets ahead of what they got at their CofE comprehensive later on.
The real fun at the latter was when a member of the RE staff attempted to bolt-on to the RE syllabus her own (and her minister husband's, I suspect) take on sex-ed 'in a Christian context'. When I hear about this I was bemused but other parents got really angry at the 'say no to everything and God will punish you if you self-abuse (sic)' being handed down and went to the Head.
Sure, the best sex-ed really is none - just parents answering questions truthfully and dealing with subject as they crop up and imparting truthful information that is age-appropriate but we don't live in a perfect world: I've never understood why a friend who is a GP found it impossible to tell her daughter about the onset of periods with the result that the child was not only hysterical when her first appeared but mortified at being so unprepared at the age of 12.
Now I'm going to enjoy another laugh at the thought of Arianna Stassinopolous Huffington being considered left-wing
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I thought she'd had a bit of an epiphany and gone from libertarian to soft lefty?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I think I saw a chart on Andrew Sullivans web site saying that U.S. Democrats are now functionally about where British Tories are since the party has moved so far right.
Which party? The Democrats or the Tories?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As a point of information, the Torlets laugh at the level of sex education provided by the "Christian ethos" academy some of their friends go to, which amounts to (and using the exact words) "keeping your fire in the box".
Me (after daughter had heard a Christian youth talk on sex): So, what did the speaker tell you about sex?
Dau: He said it was like petrol. If you splash petrol around it's dangerous. But if you put it in a car, it's safe. Sex is the same; the best place for sex is in a car.
Me: Are you sure he didn't say, the best place for petrol is in a car and the best place for sex is within marriage?
(Thoughful pause)
Dau: Maybe that is what he meant?
Me:
Presumably, he was hoping his charges would get To Paradise By The Dashboard Light.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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