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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Terrorist atheist groups
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Odd insight here: "SWAT teams train to kill atheist terrorist groups"
Given that atheists are less well-respected than Muslims or rapists in the US, I think the writer has a point: why is a group that has no rallying point for terrorism being pointed out as the dangerous crowd to a large number of gun enthusiasts?
It isn't as if the atheists had a large proselytism apparatus subverting the nation: the Christians are doing all that conversion work to themselves!
And why is there no such dangerous intent ascribed to certain wild-eyed Christian groups, some of whom have (like the KKK) arguably committed terroristic acts, especially as Christianity gradually becomes less all-pervading?
Or is the writer reading too much into this?
Come to that, the scenario for an atheist insurgence has the essence of a good comedy, along the lines of "The Mouse That Roared": a ragged non-group who don't want to believe in something that will actually make them into a group, gather anyway, and, by holding up non-symbols, they inspire fear in overdressed bishops and manicured, expensive-suited televangelists, who have to turn to a bunch of gun-show nuts to "get even". Will the Man in the White Hat (Hopalong Cassidy?) organise a defense of not believing in stuff, and lead the anti-not- believing gun enthusiasts down a dead-end canyon, where they have a conversion event and decide to devote their lives to not-believing more than you don't?
All sorts of possibilities.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's perfectly possible to have an atheist terror group, although it would probably be more accurate to describe it as anti-theist, and atheism may not be the rallying cause.
There have certainly been various Marxist or communist groups.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There have certainly been various Marxist or communist groups.
Well, yes.
And atheist communist regimes have been responsible for far more deaths than all the religious violence put together.
This doesn't "prove" that atheism is inherently lethal - it's not.
It does put paid, however, to the occasionally stated or implied belief that if all the world abandoned religion, there would be no more violence.
The statement that "Original sin is the only Christian dogma susceptible of empirical demonstration", has been attributed to various people, including G.K. Chesterton and Reinhold Niebuhr.
The statement that "If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being", is definitely attributable to Alexander Solzhenitsyn.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
BUT, since the largest contribution to atheism in the US comes from sheer religious fatigue, you can hardly say that there is a dogmatic system which leads people to become atheistic. There are a few active unbelief activists in England, but they tend to be so abrasive (Dawkins) that people don't become followers, merely parallel-beliefers.
What dogma/doctrine would cause an atheist group to become terroristic, other than overt attacks by rabid Christians?
And you cannot say that atheism was the cause of Stalin's purges, any more than you can that Catholicism caused Hitler's purges (although one could argue that the dogmatic persecution of the Jews was certainly aided by the churches). Stalin was basically using an anti-religious cover for his need for power. Please, the "atheist" Marxists are not in the same category as the "I-can't-be-bothered-to-believe" atheists of today.
Whereas certain groups of Christians understand the tactics of other groups of terrorist perfectly. How many weirded-out fundamentalists have tried to set off The Last Battle in Jerusalem? I know that the Millennium scare was compounded by the fear of that strain of fundie at the beginning of 2000, even though that was demonstrably not the 2000th anniversary of anything.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Or is the writer reading too much into this?
To answer this part of your original post: yes.
It's quite obvious that the whole purpose is to create a fictitious group.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
How many weirded-out fundamentalists have tried to set off The Last Battle in Jerusalem?
Well go on, tell us.
I've never heard of any, but I might have missed something.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
BUT, since the largest contribution to atheism in the US comes from sheer religious fatigue,
Do you have any data to back this bold assertion?
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The article seems a tad low on actual information. Seems a bit off, though.
ETA: there have been terrorist organisations which were strictly political or social. Religion is not a required ingredient.
[ 24. January 2015, 07:04: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
There has been quite a lot of violence done under the label of various varieties of anarchism, not to mention different sorts of communism and Marxism, all of which usually have atheism as part of their credo. We've had examples near here recently of anarchists setting fire to a court and a police range.
I can remember having a discussion with a political theorist back in the 1970s that one of the problems the rest of us had with the Red Army Faction was that unlike the IRA and ETA, we couldn't understand what they were being violent about or wanted to achieve. As the late Malcolm Muggeridge used to ask, 'Why?'
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
I can remember having a discussion with a political theorist back in the 1970s that one of the problems the rest of us had with the Red Army Faction was that unlike the IRA and ETA, we couldn't understand what they were being violent about or wanted to achieve. As the late Malcolm Muggeridge used to ask, 'Why?'
I suppose a difference there is that people more readily understand a movement for national liberation, rather than a more broadly focussed revolution.
I mean, everyone "knows" the Irish hate the British because of colonization and starvation, so it makes a certain amount of sense when we hear about some Irishmen mowing down British soldiers. Maybe not so much when we hear about German university dropouts blowing up government offices.
Though I believe that those European Marxist groups did declare solidarity with national liberation struggles(especially the Palestinians), and at least some of their actions were done in support of them.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's perfectly possible to have an atheist terror group, although it would probably be more accurate to describe it as anti-theist, and atheism may not be the rallying cause.
There have certainly been various Marxist or communist groups.
It might be useful to include the Spanish anarchists of the 1930s, who were responsible for the deaths of many clergy and religious, as well as of layfolk associated with the church.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
I can remember having a discussion with a political theorist back in the 1970s that one of the problems the rest of us had with the Red Army Faction was that unlike the IRA and ETA, we couldn't understand what they were being violent about or wanted to achieve. As the late Malcolm Muggeridge used to ask, 'Why?'
I suppose a difference there is that people more readily understand a movement for national liberation, rather than a more broadly focussed revolution. ....
Sort of, but not quite. It's more that the Red Army Faction was unfocused, acts of pointless and unpleasant violence for the dogmatic hell of it, rather than a conspiracy targeted in a way that was actually likely to take over the citadels of power.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There have certainly been various Marxist or communist groups.
Well, yes.
And atheist communist regimes have been responsible for far more deaths than all the religious violence put together.
I'm sorry?!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There may be an element of recognising that whatever scenario those SWAT teams may face, it will be different from anything they've actually prepared for. So, why not set a scenario that is unlike anything anyone actually expects them to face?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
There have certainly been various Marxist or communist groups.
Well, yes.
And atheist communist regimes have been responsible for far more deaths than all the religious violence put together.
I'm sorry?!
I suspect it's a reference to the number of people killed in Soviet Union, for example the various atrocities of Stalin, and other Communist states.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Well, zombies are sometimes used as a theme in disaster prep info from the gov't. (Yes, really. Gets attention.)
So might as well practice with terrorist zombies. If law enforcement officers can deal with undead terrorists who also want to eat them, they can probably deal with anything that comes along.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Well, zombies are sometimes used as a theme in disaster prep info from the gov't. (Yes, really. Gets attention.)
So might as well practice with terrorist zombies. If law enforcement officers can deal with undead terrorists who also want to eat them, they can probably deal with anything that comes along.
I have actually seen one of these scenarios in draft-- my contact told me that it worked very well in practice and they found a number of communications glitches which they have since fixed. Apparently the notion of being turned into mindless gibbering creatures horrified the military and civilian professionals into an enhanced level of performance.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye Alan, that absurd thinking that goes with the ignorant belief that more people are alive today than have ever lived.
How more people could be killed by Godless Communism in 40 years than by religion in 4000 is risible.
I suppose there are more Christian martyrs now than ever too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM, it us the number killed by particular "atheist" entity v. a particular religious entity. Which is rubbish as the "atheist" entities are in the modern era where logistics greatly enhance the ability to kill. Amongst the other rubbish reasons.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Oh, and another thing bothering me about the article. SWAT teams are a poor reference for the point the article wishes to make. Swat teams are paramilitary, designed and trained from the beginning to handle situations in which regular officers are not trained for. Their training for a terrorist situation is not the problem. Ignorantly highlighting a (potentially) normal training does not help.
The problems are that SWAT are being deployed in situations they should not be and that regular cops are being armed more like SWAT. It is the escalation of force by the police that is a problem.
Atheists getting their knickers in a twist for the wrong reasons don't help.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
Probably simple pragmatism that atheists would be thick skinned not to raise a fuss about being portrayed as a terrorist group. I would say overall newsworthy on the level of deflated footballs.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
What would be the motivation of an atheist terrorist group? I think the group would have to some identity beyond just "atheist".
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How more people could be killed by Godless Communism in 40 years than by religion in 4000 is risible.
Is religion only 4,000 years old?
Communism as a regime has actually been around for nearly one hundred years.
I realise that to exorcise its hecatombs is a simple matter of yelling, "Reds under the bed!" and then laughing hysterically, but a glance at one or two historical figures might be entertaining, even though we know they can't possibly be true, and were just invented by the CIA.
The most recent authoritative figure for Stalin (taken from Bloodlands:Europe Betwen Hitler And Stalin, by Timothy Snyder, 2010) is nine million.
That is far fewer than earlier figures arrived at by pioneers in this area, such as Robert Conquest, but doesn't include those killed by the Soviet Union before 1928 and after 1953.
The most recent scholarly estimate of those just starved to death by Mao 1958-62, and not counting those killed by other methods before and after these dates, is a minimum of 45 million (Mao's Great Famine, Frank Dikotter, 2010)
Then there are all the other victims of communism in North Korea, Cambodia, etc.
OK, I'll concede that victims of religion in general would be difficult to define and calculate, but just to stick with Christianity, it would take some number-crunching to make those killed by 2,000 years of Christianity, in efforts such as the Crusades, Inquisition, conquistadors and Thirty Years War, match communism's statistics.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You do realise that it is not a simple comparison, yes? Given modern logistics, mass killings are much easier. So when things occurred is a massive factor. The comparative equation would have to account for methods, transportation, communication. etc. Factored with exactly how religion, atheism or communism played in the killing/death by neglect. Agreeing on the formula would take longer than this thread will likely exist and the argument on what weight which factors have in each case would take longer than some of the case entities lasted.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The killings of many people, including their own followers, by Christians are obviously influenced by power trips and the internal/external politics of that tribe.
The killings done in the name of Marx (as a convenient religious-symbol-replacement) are obviously influenced by power trips and the internal/external politics of that tribe.
The killings done in the name of football are obviously influenced by alcohol and the anomie of a small group of followers of that cult, many of whom aren't sufficiently advanced to know whether or not they actually have a religious belief (or not)
But the vast majority of atheists in the present day (at least in the West) have no coalescing-point which might allow them to organise killings, whether of flowers or anti-followers.
Saying that "Godless atheists" have killed so many millions implies that ALL of the Godfollowers are therefore involved in all the killings done In the name of Christ.
Doesn't make sense. Most Christians are that way by default and wouldn't get involved in a pub argument about it. Probably the majority of self-identified atheists have become that way by choice, after being mistreated or misunderstood by Christians or other religionists. Atheism is the default position for those who escape, not the place for radical protest.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Religion as an organized cultural phenomenon is as old as history, i.e. as old as documentation. 5000 years. Communism as a significantly lethal force (in reaction to capitalist=Christendom force) lasted from 1920-70 odd. 50 years. The ratio is the same. 100:1
Pre-documented religion is old as humanity.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Were the Mongolian invasions a few centuries back religiously motivated? The wars of Rome? Alexanders conquests? The slaughter of the North and South American and Australian aboriginals?
Many people are somewhat religious and throw a religious justification over their wars of conquest, but the main motivation is conquest regardless of religion.
And yes to those who say "atheist terrorists" is a "politically neutral" target for training purposes, like the disaster planning for a zombie apocalypse. It avoids distractions - plan for Islamic terrorists and you miss some things that might be characteristic of a non-Islamic group while focusing on things specific to just that one religion.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Except atheists actually exist, so a) focusing on them may be as limiting as focusing on Islamists; and b) somewhere along the line, that's going to get attached to America's reported distrust of atheists, and the idea of atheists as dangerous troublemakers may go viral, causing trouble for innocent atheists.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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