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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why Fi?
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
A report in the Church Times tells us that the CofE's Buildings Division plans to install wi-fi in every CofE church. Some of the thinking on this, the report says, is about "building communities" and goes back to Lord Lloyd-Webber's appeal (no doubt set to a catchy tune and now running to packed houses in the West End) for church naves to become centres for business in the way we think they might have been before the Reformation.
But I don't see the logic in this. I don't think it's obvious that the presence of the internet in a place will help build community in that place. It can, I'm sure - but I think it's just as likely to fragment community. (If you can access the link, look at the cartoonist's contribution at the bottom of the page. I think he's telling more truth than he knows - the eyes of each member of the congregation glued to their tablet screen, oblivious to the presence of their neighbour.)
Secondly, there's the cost - the report talks about the £1500 needed to connect one particular church.
Thirdly, if we're talking about using the internet in church, then why?. I've always had a very low-tech view of worship: we use bread, wine, water, oil, the human voice, human touch and human presence. We use words written in books, natural light or the light of a natural flame. To my mind, these things keep Christianity "earthed", and resolutely present in the primitive, physical world.
So is this a good thing? Or is it perhaps just another expensive gimmick from a tired old Church desperate to seem modern and relevant?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Our Church (Methodist) is teched up to the hilt. The service/hymns etc are on big screens and You Tube clips are often used during the children's bit.
Even so, I can't really see many benefits - except one big one. The singing. People sing with their heads up instead of buried in a book, so the singing is excellent.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Isn't the problem with this making it an issue of policy or principle? Install wifi if it's useful for what you're doing and value for money. Don't, if it isn't.
And don't tell other people whether they ought or ought not to have it
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I don't see anything in the article (with the exception of the cartoon) indicating that wi-fi would be there for use during regular worship. The article talked about providing a service for the local community. So, something that might be useful for the scout troop, the ladies club, the youth group, the dance classes using the buildings during the week.
I think the big question is for each church, is there a lack of wi-fi provision in the area that provision of such facilities by the church would alleviate? That would, I expect, be people who have occasional need for internet access but couldn't afford wi-fi at home (or, those who are homeless and so don't have that option at all). That would probably mean providing laptops as well to make use of that. Would pensioners benefit from somewhere where they can occasionally access Facebook to see what their grand-kids are doing? Would someone unemployed benefit from somewhere where they could browse job sites?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
My nonco congo meets in a large school hall (having outgrown its original chapel) and makes some use of the school Wifi system (at no extra cost) under the rental agreement. Just before Christmas, we used it to communicate, during a service, with two overseas missionaries we've sent out and support. It was an excellent thing to do.
The link also gets used from time to time to use online resources during sermons or children's/young people's presentations. It has proved useful.
Our church offices are next door to the original chapel and they have Wifi (as most do these days) for a variety of good admin reasons. So it can and does get used in the chapel both for other church events and by other community users of the building.
I guess the small print of agreements with service providers would need to be looked at, together with the range and speed of the link, but I wouldn't be surprised if any C of E church with offices attached to or very near their office buildings couldn't just make this facility more generally available at no extra cost - provided security of information could be protected.
But I don't see any reason to make this compulsory. If a local PCC doesn't want it, or sees no local reason to have it, why spend the money?
[ 12. January 2015, 10:27: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
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Posted
In this diocese (Derby) we are looking at working with a satellite ISP and using church towers as a way to get high speed broadband into communities that are never going to get fibre optic infrastructure (e.g. villages in the Peak Park). That could increase employment opportunities for local people in an age when offices need web connectedness, and enable people to work from home/more flexibly- the sorts of lifestyle choices that people in towns take for granted.
It's a way of using church buildings to serve the local community, and a potential revenue source, but I'm not aware of any plans for the churches to actually connect.
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
If you want to use WiFi for some form of connectivity during services/worship, it would make more sense to use 3G or 4G if coverage works in that area. Mobiles have the option to be used as a router. The provision of a permanent WiFi link (which will come with installation, line rental and monthly usage charges) will make more sense if you have a properly costed plan that foresees making it available for usage outside that framework of services etc.
Of course, each case is going to be different. 3G/4G isn't available everywhere, especially in rural locations. High speed broadband isn't either (same comments, plenty of rural locations will have very limited speed broadband). And someone else may already have got there first. A village shop may do it to get customers in and chat over a coffee. I live in a village where the village hall provides a free WiFi service already. Etc. etc. Providing a free WiFi service in some circumstances may be pointless or even counterproductive.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thirdly, if we're talking about using the internet in church, then why?. I've always had a very low-tech view of worship: we use bread, wine, water, oil, the human voice, human touch and human presence. We use words written in books, natural light or the light of a natural flame. To my mind, these things keep Christianity "earthed", and resolutely present in the primitive, physical world.
Yes, yes and yes. Well said.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I agree entirely. It's a barmy idea.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Thanks for everyone's contributions so far. It occurs to me to wonder, what are the costs of running these networks? My domestic wi-fi costs me about £20 a month, for a "low"-speed broadband network that I can just about access from outside my front door. How much for a network that people can access from hundreds of metres away? (Or are we thinking that people might come into the church to use it as an "internet café"?) Is this another free service that members of CofE congregations will be paying for, to be supplied to the wider community free of charge?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, something that might be useful for the scout troop, the ladies club, the youth group, the dance classes using the buildings during the week.
A lot of churches around here have WiFi, and it's used exactly as Alan suggests here. All these kinds of local community groups find it convenient to have network access.
It's also used by parents sitting waiting to collect their kids from choir practice / youth group / whatever. Again, a convenience.
As far as use of tech during the service goes, there's one guy who likes to use his tablet instead of the hymnal, as he finds it easier to read.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
In my family/community we call it wiffy (rhymes with sniffy). That is all I have to say.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Maybe it doesn't make sense for all churches, but it could be good for churches that run programs for the community. I volunteer for a charity near housing commission flats and one of our programs is a homework club and as part of that we have a computer lab with free internet access for the children and teenagers. They can also log in for free on their own devices.
Many children do have small notepad computers or tablets provided by their schools, but do not have internet access at home. A lot of homework these days requires internet research or is even maths or spelling or grammar exercises that the teacher has set on online programs.
Some churches run similar programs and though they would probably not have a computer lab, students with devices could use the church wifi for free.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
On a sidenote, our local libraries get a lot of people using the free wi-fi for viewing porn. I'd imagine churches could have a similar problem.
(That probably shouldn't prevent churches from doing it, but it's something to be aware of.)
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
if it's for community groups, it might make more sense to have church halls (rather than actual churches) equipped with wifi.
But really, I don't see the point in having it everywhere. Maybe provide some funding/support for churches that see a need for it without just installing it everywhere? otherwise it won't be used anyway. For instance, where I used to live, there was a church directly opposite the library, where there was free internet access for everyone with a library card (library membership being free to everyone who lives in the area). These days there's probably wifi in every cafe anyway. So why does a church like that need its own wifi as well?
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Yeah, you definitely need to use net nannies of some sort. It's easier (mostly) with kids because they can't complain if we insist on supervising them and looking over their shoulders to make sure they're doing school work or on appropriate websites if it is free time. I've certainly had some interesting conversations about face book and cyber safety at times though.
I don't think adults would appreciate that sought of prying!
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
It would mean the whole congregation can play Candy Crush during the sermon.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marzipan:
where I used to live, there was a church directly opposite the library, where there was free internet access for everyone with a library card (library membership being free to everyone who lives in the area). These days there's probably wifi in every cafe anyway. So why does a church like that need its own wifi as well?
I think it's going to depend on who uses the church and whether wi-fi would be of benefit to them. If there's an afterschool homework club (as it's already been mentioned) it doesn't actually help if the kids need to be taken across the road to the library everytime they need to look something up on Wikipedia. Likewise, members of the lunch club wanting to show their friends photos of the grandchildren posted on Facebook.
Cafes and the like providing wi-fi are a different thing. Most provide wi-fi for their customers, and not everyone can afford an overpriced cup of tea just so they can check their email.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
It would mean the whole congregation can play Candy Crush during the sermon.
When smartphones first came out I wondered why some of the young adults at church were on their phones during the sermon - without trying to hide it either! It turns out they were reading the Bible on their Bible Apps. At least as far as I know that was all they were doing.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
It would mean the whole congregation can play Candy Crush during the sermon.
They can do that anyway on 4G
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Apparently, there is a facility at HTB to make live comments or raise questions on the contents of sermons; not sure whether they are displayed, or some time allowed for preacher response, or there is follow up after the sermon.
Personally, I think there's a lot to be said for sermon feedback and response; it might even cut down on Candy Crush time.
[FWIW I'm currently on level 716 of Candy Crush original but resist making use of "boring sermon" time.]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
There are lots of reasons why it could be useful in some instances, and even more why a blanket approach misses the point.
Also, as others have alluded to, if this is to be offered as a general publicly accessible service, there are a whole range of technical, security and legal issues to consider that almost certainly won't be. I'm in a constant battle at our church against giving out the WiFi key, usually with the same people who were hypersensitive that someone might walk into the church office and see 'something personal' on a staff PC.
Doing it properly isn't difficult, but it does require technical knowledge, money, discipline, and potentially a bit of management. Something lacking in most churches (and small business to be fair) in my experience. Instead you'll get someone thinking it's a great idea to post the WiFi key to the broadband on the noticeboard, despite it being on the same subnet as the PC/server that stores all those confidential documents, emails, financial records, and on a connection that does nothing to filter against kiddie porn or objectionable content because no-one will understand it, or consider it.
tl;dr
Interesting idea, bound to end in a shit load of tears because people are legitimately ignorant and will lay down the welcome mat for the cock-up fairy.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
One of our churches has to be open to the public as a condition of a large grant from English Heritage. So it is appealing for people to 'church watch' for 3 hour stints. I'd be more likely to volunteer if it had wifi so that I could so some work at the same time.
Another of our churches has electronic books - missal, lectionary etc. One preacher was discomfited when a power cut meant that she couldn't access her sermon notes.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I don't much like having the lyrics of a hymn available only a big screen. This leads to unison singing (only) and many hymns sound better in parts.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
many hymns sound better in parts.
I would think that in most CofE congregations singing hymns in parts means leaving out the starred verses.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
In my family/community we call it wiffy (rhymes with sniffy). That is all I have to say.
Isn't that how it's normally pronounced?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Also, as others have alluded to, if this is to be offered as a general publicly accessible service, there are a whole range of technical, security and legal issues to consider that almost certainly won't be. I'm in a constant battle at our church against giving out the WiFi key, usually with the same people who were hypersensitive that someone might walk into the church office and see 'something personal' on a staff PC.
This is a good point. If the church or vicarage office computers are on the same network, then information governance becomes a Big Deal. Considering how bad some churches are at confidentiality, even when it comes to just writing something down, or saying something out loud, adding the dimension of an information network becomes the nightmare scenario.
As for leo's preacher's sermon notes - see my previous contribution. quote:
I've always had a very low-tech view of worship: we use bread, wine, water, oil, the human voice, human touch and human presence. We use words written in books, natural light or the light of a natural flame. To my mind, these things keep Christianity "earthed", and resolutely present in the primitive, physical world.
I'm afraid my highly unprofessional but highly instinctive response would have been that if a pen and paper were good enough for a gold-star preacher like J.H.Newman, why weren't they good enough for her?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
On a sidenote, our local libraries get a lot of people using the free wi-fi for viewing porn. I'd imagine churches could have a similar problem.
(That probably shouldn't prevent churches from doing it, but it's something to be aware of.)
It is very simple to control access within a local network. Libraries and other free wifi networks here have none of these issues because of the self up of the network. It is also possible to have people sign-up for access, thus making their internet history on the free network traceable. I prefer simple filtering myself. At my workplace, where I manage the wifi and LAN, questionable material is simple directed to a pre-page which asks the user 'do you really want to go there', which admittedly filters some contact through the caution page that needn't be, but it does stop problems otherwise.
As for pronunciation, I believe why-fie, with long i's is the preferred pronunciation. With the name Wifi being based on hifi, which was high fidelity, I suppose it could be why-feh.
I reminded of the movie Back the Future, where Doc says "jig-a-bite" with the j sound from jump. It's possible to say all sorts of things in non-usual ways. I also recall the former MS-DOS operating system being said "em ess dose" by someone.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
A few months ago, our phone (and internet provider) company (Shaw) came and set up free wi-fi for the whole church and its surrounds. It's only accessible to other Shaw customers, but as a huge number of people around here are already Shaw customers, that wasn't too much of a problem.
So now we have our own wi-fi, which is password controlled and so accessible only to those who know the password. AND we can offer wi-fi to Shaw customers who may be using our building for concerts, meetings etc. We also got them to extend it out into the carpark, so that the weekly farmers' market from April to September also gets the benefit. I have tested the range and it certainly covers all of the car park.
As I say - the installation was free and doesn't cost us anything, as long as we remain Shaw customers.
I wonder why something similar couldn't be done in the UK? Surely the C of E could use it's "purchasing power" to come to some sort of agreement with a supplier?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are, as I understand it, similar schemes in the UK that allow people to make their wifi a public hot spot - for customers with their provider. This allows people who can afford broadband to use mobile devices in more places. It does nothing to help people who are unable to get broadband in the first place. Inability to access the internet is a form of poverty, should the church be helping those who already have have more, or helping those who don't have have at least something?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Some members of the choir use their smartphones during the service for social media or for their kids to play games on when they get back from Sunday School. But that's because they are small and (they think) discreet. The only person who might be tempted to use a full sized laptop during the sermon would be the organist. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
A few months ago, our phone (and internet provider) company (Shaw) came and set up free wi-fi for the whole church and its surrounds. It's only accessible to other Shaw customers, but as a huge number of people around here are already Shaw customers, that wasn't too much of a problem.
So now we have our own wi-fi, which is password controlled and so accessible only to those who know the password. AND we can offer wi-fi to Shaw customers who may be using our building for concerts, meetings etc. We also got them to extend it out into the carpark, so that the weekly farmers' market from April to September also gets the benefit. I have tested the range and it certainly covers all of the car park.
As I say - the installation was free and doesn't cost us anything, as long as we remain Shaw customers.
I wonder why something similar couldn't be done in the UK? Surely the C of E could use it's "purchasing power" to come to some sort of agreement with a supplier?
No supplier required. Just internet access. I set this up on my home network with a simple $100 off the shelf router; you probably need something more than the $29.95 basic one. You set up your home wifi access, and then, if the router has the sophistication, a guest network. Depending on the programming within the router, you can control the guest network differently, register users or not, have a second credentialling system etc. You certainly don't need Shaw to do it, nor do you have to tie anyone to a specific ISP.
FWIW, I am generally anti-Shaw because of some of their business practices, including trying to capture market share this way by allowing access only to their people on free wifi within businesses. Free wifi isn't free wifi except to paying customers if it is linked to only to customers of a particular company. What about the people who don't have an ISP themselves, e.g., pooor and need access?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I also recall the former MS-DOS operating system being said "em ess dose" by someone.
MS doze, they were probably being ironic. ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.
[fixed code and attribution]
[ 12. January 2015, 18:53: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
A few months ago, our phone (and internet provider) company (Shaw) came and set up free wi-fi for the whole church and its surrounds. It's only accessible to other Shaw customers, but as a huge number of people around here are already Shaw customers, that wasn't too much of a problem.
So now we have our own wi-fi, which is password controlled and so accessible only to those who know the password. AND we can offer wi-fi to Shaw customers who may be using our building for concerts, meetings etc. We also got them to extend it out into the carpark, so that the weekly farmers' market from April to September also gets the benefit. I have tested the range and it certainly covers all of the car park.
As I say - the installation was free and doesn't cost us anything, as long as we remain Shaw customers.
I wonder why something similar couldn't be done in the UK? Surely the C of E could use it's "purchasing power" to come to some sort of agreement with a supplier?
Do you not have to pay rental for a landline, Oscar? Would they come and lay one in for free? (Obviously if the church has an office it's probably already wired up, but many church offices are not actually in the church itself).
Anyone using a BT Internet router will be putting out two other WiFi signals that can be logged into by anyone else with a BT internet account provided they have the app. on their phone or laptop.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
many hymns sound better in parts.
I would think that in most CofE congregations singing hymns in parts means leaving out the starred verses.
Don't worry - Spring is not far off. The birds at least will sing from their lttle hearts.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thirdly, if we're talking about using the internet in church, then why?. I've always had a very low-tech view of worship: we use bread, wine, water, oil, the human voice, human touch and human presence. We use words written in books, natural light or the light of a natural flame. To my mind, these things keep Christianity "earthed", and resolutely present in the primitive, physical world.
Yes, yes and yes. Well said.
I'll add my 2p as well. Yes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Do you not have to pay rental for a landline, Oscar? Would they come and lay one in for free? (Obviously if the church has an office it's probably already wired up, but many church offices are not actually in the church itself).
Anyone using a BT Internet router will be putting out two other WiFi signals that can be logged into by anyone else with a BT internet account provided they have the app. on their phone or laptop.
OK - I was principally thinking of churches which already have a landline - which would predominantly be in urban settings. But that would be a relatively quick and easy start. Rural churches would be a much harder nut to crack.
But I think my main point still applies - it should not be impossible to get providers to offer this service for next to nothing. And if that is possible, who know what kind of results may emerge? It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a telecoms company might see that providing such a service for free to churches is actually going to be good for them in a business sense. And this is where the "centralistas" in Church House ought to be able to make a significant and positive contribution. Right now there should be (and there may already be) serious lobbying going on with the telecoms companies, seeking to get them falling over themselves to get on board with this vision.
Overall, I think it is a good thing to aim for, provided that it doesn't mean extra expenses for parishes that are already struggling to survive. Younger generations especially (and plenty of sliver surfers) already expect wi-fi access almost all the time. I know of many people who would happily update their Facebook page with "At a great carol service in St Bertha's Church, Little Snodton".
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
A few months ago, our phone (and internet provider) company (Shaw) came and set up free wi-fi for the whole church and its surrounds. It's only accessible to other Shaw customers, but as a huge number of people around here are already Shaw customers, that wasn't too much of a problem.
So now we have our own wi-fi, which is password controlled and so accessible only to those who know the password. AND we can offer wi-fi to Shaw customers who may be using our building for concerts, meetings etc. We also got them to extend it out into the carpark, so that the weekly farmers' market from April to September also gets the benefit. I have tested the range and it certainly covers all of the car park.
As I say - the installation was free and doesn't cost us anything, as long as we remain Shaw customers.
I wonder why something similar couldn't be done in the UK? Surely the C of E could use it's "purchasing power" to come to some sort of agreement with a supplier?
Do you not have to pay rental for a landline, Oscar? Would they come and lay one in for free? (Obviously if the church has an office it's probably already wired up, but many church offices are not actually in the church itself).
Anyone using a BT Internet router will be putting out two other WiFi signals that can be logged into by anyone else with a BT internet account provided they have the app. on their phone or laptop.
You don't need a landline for internet - you can get it without one from Virgin Media.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Also, I can see why wifi would be helpful for many churches, but I'd much rather the CoE spent more time making church buildings disabled accessible. Of course, often it's the Victorian Society and the like preventing that, but the idea that wifi should be compulsory but not disabled accessible buildings is worrying to me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
You don't need a landline for internet - you can get it without one from Virgin Media.
Any mobile phone company will provide 3G or 4G internet access, not just Virgin. But, that's a relatively low bandwidth compared to wired broadband.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
You don't need a landline for internet - you can get it without one from Virgin Media.
Any mobile phone company will provide 3G or 4G internet access, not just Virgin. But, that's a relatively low bandwidth compared to wired broadband.
Virgin's is actually broadband. I'm not sure how they do it, but we had it in our student house.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
So is this a good thing? Or is it perhaps just another expensive gimmick from a tired old Church desperate to seem modern and relevant?
I'm not sure if it gives you enough "bang for the buck", so to speak. But if you are providing a decent free wifi spot, then you will get "teched-up" people hang out in it. And if your church is open, they will quite likely sit in it while doing so. Is there a point to having people use their smartphones, tablets or laptops in your church? Well, it's a nice demographic (youngish) and quite possibly for some of these people it will be the first time they have ever crossed the threshold of a church. So just maybe it will provide opportunities to get in contact, and lower the threshold for these people to go to church for more churchy things.
I think there is a problem here with "de-sacralising" the church space. But then many people would consider that more a feature than a problem... Anyway, I can see some value in trying this, in particular if you have a bigger church where one can maybe separate a more "public" space from a more "dedicated" space. I guess it is an attempt to answer the question "why would a youngish, unchurched person wander into a church?"
Let me put it this way: if all CofE churches had decent wifi, the chances that I would visit a CofE church now and then would increase a lot. It would be better than Starbucks, where I feel obliged to buy an expensive coffee to do some internet surfing. I might even be caught asking questions like "Would you happen to know if there's an Anglican church here somewhere?" on the street. Of course, for all the wrong reasons, but maybe any reason is a good reason nowadays...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thirdly, if we're talking about using the internet in church, then why?. I've always had a very low-tech view of worship: we use bread, wine, water, oil, the human voice, human touch and human presence. We use words written in books, natural light or the light of a natural flame. To my mind, these things keep Christianity "earthed", and resolutely present in the primitive, physical world.
Yes, yes and yes. Well said.
I'll add my 2p as well. Yes.
I have to disagree. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be, maybe that's how it was once upon a time, but it's not how most churches are today.
The bread is rarely actually bread. The human voice is amplified. I don't see books or service bulletins as low-tech, probably because I think about how they are produced. Most churches are illuminated by electric light, not by natural light or natural flame -- if there are candles, they are symbolic, not functioning as light fixtures.
The only church I've ever attended that made me feel that it had any connection to the physical world was one in the Colorado Rockies that had a big clear window at the front so you could see the stunning view of the mountains. But in most churches you can't see outside, even if there are windows, so you're contained in a box, with artificial light.
So adding wifi doesn't seem to me like it's interrupting anything particularly earthy or primitive.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Re reference to Virgin, Shaw, and other private companies. Their business model is non-workable in some parts of the world. Like where I live.
In some parts of the world, cellular data plans are expensive. For 1 gig of data per month where I live it's close to $85, which is about £40. Wired internet costs about $60 for basic high speed. The reasons for high cost is low population density and infrastructure that's expensive. I live in a province thankfully where we have government-owned Crown corporations which subsidize rural areas with more expensive fees in cities and towns. There would no internet nor cell phones at all in rural areas if not for government doing it. In some areas, there is a satellite version costing the same, also provided by government.
We get really annoyed with private companies wanting to serve cities and avoid the more expensive rural areas. Thus far we've been able to force that they must serve all areas, and if they don't have the infrastructure, buy access for their customers from the government-owned Crown corporation. This is one of those situations where it is abundantly clear that public ownership does it better than private enterprise. (others are electric service, natural gas, water; we also wouldn't have grocery stories in many areas if not for co-ops owned by local residents.)
[ 13. January 2015, 16:01: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
But in most churches you can't see outside, even if there are windows, so you're contained in a box, with artificial light.
Most churches gather the congregation into a deliberately isolated space. We're surrounded by walls, hidden from sight of people passing on the street, with our own ways of doing things that it takes visitors time to understand and appreciate. People put forward reasons about it being a sacred space, a sacred time, about worship being a time to be out of the world to recharge and refresh ourselves for mission in the world. There's value in that, of course. But, a danger too of becoming a holy huddle that's not in the world at all.
Maybe the microwaves of wi-fi routers and devices can transcend the physical walls of our buildings and reconnect us to the world outside?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
It seems a bit that the churches that can easily provide it (i.e. tending to the big ones) there's less need and where the church pretty much uses modern tech* so it would fit in.
Whereas the communities where it would be difficult (probably not even having a phone line) and feel awkward, are pretty much those where there's not a library or coffee shop.
*I really enjoyed a post that pointed out that books were modern tech at the time the church adapted them.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I like Alan's point.
Technology has had a massive impact on the ways people communicate today. It is a more interactive world. The medium is of course not the message, but understanding communication means is a pretty essential background to effective communicating. Particularly if you have a message of good news to proclaim.
There's a tinge of "be ye separate" involved in not wanting to go there. The concept of being "in the world but not of the world" has some implicit force as well. For me, I would rather find means of using more modern communications options of proclaiming Christian distinctives than turn my back on them as "things of this world".
Such engagement isn't about a concern to be fashionable, it's a recognition of how easy it is to become irrelevant by separating from what are increasingly normal means of human discourse.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Maybe the microwaves of wi-fi routers and devices can transcend the physical walls of our buildings and reconnect us to the world outside?
In what sense? People are going to be using it to communicate with the ungathered communities they consist of outside the church (their facebook/twitter/instagram circles etc).
Which isn't to say that offering basic access to the internet can't be a community good (especially when the alternatives may cost more)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
In what sense are those communities ungathered?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In what sense are those communities ungathered?
They are neither physically present in the church, nor are they somehow virtually connected to it in thought or word (except perhaps briefly, if the user tweets "using wifi in a church right now").
The hope that providing internet connectivity as such establishes community with the church is unrealistic, even concerning the actual user, much less for their connections. But, as mentioned above, this may provide opportunities to connect to the user, and then potentially through them to their connections. It's not going to be automatic though...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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