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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: But what if _you_ have something against _them_ ?
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift.
I don't know if this belongs here - maybe AS would be better, or even Hell and the 'Difficult Relatives' thread.
I've offended someone - God pricks my conscience - I go to seek reconciliation, and am freed from the punishment my sin (pride/vanity whatever) is bringing on me right now. Great.
But someone is habitually offending me, in a 70x7 scenario (Oh G-d, that had to come to mind didn't it, I'm answering my own question), and my wrath is building, and building, and in my mind I'm well past the 'thou fool' and in to something much more Hellish - and my wrath is punishing me with that Hell-fire, right now.
But I can't seek reconciliation, because there's some sincere repentance, but it's patchy and keeps falling apart again, and again, and again, over years, and years, and years. Ouch.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Sounds like a case for a wise pastoral counselor. Or help from an old and experienced, kind and merciful Christian friend. Look for one! Or ten!
Seriously, I'm in this boat right now too, in a slightly different way. It sucks.
There is the 70 x 7 thing. And there's no mitigating Christ's demand on us, to forgive as he has forgiven us. Ouch.
But forgiveness is not the same thing as pretending it never happened, or staying in the very situation that allows them to keep on abusing you, even if they are full of repentance at this very minute and swear they'll never do it again. You can forgive someone without falling for their latest self-delusion ("I promise I'll never do it again"), and you can take self-defensive measures. For example, with alcoholics. I forgive my relative T and have managed over the years to learn to love him again; but that doesn't mean I will ever climb into a car he's driving again, or entrust my son to his sole care during a fishing trip, or put him down as a user on my credit card account. Indeed, if I did any of those damfool things, it would be just leading the man into temptation, and we're not supposed to do that. So forgive, and rebuild the relationship some other way that's safer for both of you.
As I see it, forgiveness in this kind of case means primarily refusing to harbor evil thoughts and desires concerning this person--knocking those thoughts on the head whenever they show up--and certainly refusing to carry out any kind of revenge or payback, in words or actions. It will likely take months or years of mental whack-a-mole before those thoughts and desires stop harassing you. But it does eventually come to an end.
In the meantime, tons and tons of prayer, and be gentle with yourself. You are trying to do the right thing. Take yourself out of temptation's way as far as you can--for example, if person X is continually slipping and mistreating you in the context of church, you may be better off to start attending a different service for a bit, so as to minimize opportunities for getting your wounds reopened.
When the wrath starts building (as mine does, if I think about X for any length of time), one thing that sometimes helps me is to consciously recall that Christ suffered and died for X as well as for me, and that means Jesus is basically in the position of a mother watching two of her dearly loved children in conflict. I will do a shitload of things for him that I would never do for X or anyone else, not if you paid me. So keeping in mind that my efforts are making him happy is kind of the spoonful of sugar that makes the bitter, bitter medicine of dealing with X go down.
Another thing that helps is going off privately and bitching to Jesus about X. I mean, that's probably the one situation in which there is no danger of any evil resulting--I get to vent, he's not going to gossip (as if!), he's not going to think any the worse of me for doing so (since he knows it all already), and if I'm sinning, at least I'm taking it to the right person, am I not? And occasionally he'll insert a word edgewise into my flow which helps.
I'm sorry this isn't very Kerygmaniacal. But as far as Scripture support, you can look at the Psalms--David had some nasty nasty things to say about certain of his enemies, but he did it to the Lord, as I suggested above. Romans 7 and 8 has a lot about the internal struggles Christians face as we deal with the conflict of the new, Christ-like self that is growing in us and the old, kick-him-in-the-nuts self that would dearly love to go strangle X.
Another thing that has been of help to me personally is the idea "What would I do differently if I did in fact forgive X?" And then go and do it (or not do it, as thy case may be). If you can't manage actual forgiveness just yet, going through the motions is a good substitute until your heart catches up with the rest of you. My personal X has shown up at church again (grrrrrr, I have to see her face) and actually spoke to me ("Hi, LC"). I have NO desire to speak to her and every desire to walk out. But in this
case "going through the motions" (and thinking of Jesus' pleasure) allowed me to at least get out the words "Hi, X."
God help us both.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Nods. If anyone knows about trying to forgive reams of offences it would be Lamb Chopped. Listen to her.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A family member resents my existence, always has, from early childhood.
I've been trying to become friends for 50 years! But anything I do is wrong and resented, just because it's me. Even a sincere compliment is scorned as "fake." My hair, my clothes, my career, my music preferences - inexcusably wrong. (Gosh, you'd think from that list I was a street corner hooker or something!)
How does one reconcile where values and personalities differ and the person cannot tolerate difference?
I guess the verse is about hypocrisy, your action going to the altar contrasting with specifically how you treated others that violates the golden rule?
Or is it one of those impossible goals, a generalized "give up all your values/personality/goals/interests to win the friendship of anyone who can't tolerate your voting the 'wrong' party or succeeding in a career they tried and failed, because love is the only thing that matters"?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Maybe Jesus left that out on purpose, because we can only do what we can do. If you've offended someone, you can do your best to make it right. If you've been offended, and the person who hurt you won't or can't make it right, there's really nothing you can do except tend to your own feelings about it, and in that case, forgiveness is all tangled up with hurt, and it wavers, but you do the best you can with it. I think you take that to the altar with your gift, personally. God has asked for our being, our whole person. Maybe that pain is what God wants to transform and use - who knows? Or maybe God will heal it.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I can't see any way Jesus would hold us responsible for the OTHER person's response (or lack of it). But what's in our own hearts, yeah, that's ours to work out with the help (and miracles) of the Holy Spirit.
Since friendship/reconciliation/any relationship, really, is up to BOTH people and can be scuttled by just one, I'd say we needn't worry about whether the relationship is restored, provided it's not US that's preventing it. Even Jesus couldn't MAKE Caiaphas, Judas, or various zillion others to live in peace with him.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Host hat on
The Keryg hosts have agreed that this is more a support thread than Bible exegesis.
Hold your hats! We're going to All Saints.
Host hat off
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Pray for them - pray that they receive all the blessings that you would wish for a friend - do it every day for a month and then see how you feel.
Sounds glib but it really is bloody hard. If you can't mean it then fake it until you make it - say the words even if you don't mean them. If you can't even manage that get a friend or folk here or someone to pray for them instead.
Prayer works - but only if you work it.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Welease speaks wisdom here. Pray for them, even if you have to force the words out through gritted teeth. (Only he may be optimistic in thinking that a month is long enough to start changing your heart. It may not be. Keep at it.)
And once you can pray for them, then comes the really hard part. Give thanks for them. Thank God for whatever good that has come into your life that you wouldn't have had if not for them. Maybe all the good is indirect -- they meant something for evil, but God used it for good. Give thanks for them, and for the good.
It's hard work. But it's good work.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I've been wondering how to respond to your thoughtful and what must have been time-consuming posts. I'm really grateful. I started it in Keryg. because the verse was in my daily bible readings. And today, preceded by your helpful suggestions and now underlining them from scripture, we have
quote:
Matthew 5:43-48
Jesus said to the disciples, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
heheheheheheh. Matthew 5-7 always makes me grind my teeth. Thank God we have Jesus, I'd never make it otherwise.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Polly Plummer
Shipmate
# 13354
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Posted
In this sort of situation, where you don't feel honest praying for the person, I find the only way is to ask God to help you want to forgive them.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Or if you're me, "Help me to want you to help me to want to forgive him." In some cases, it goes even further backward along the same lines...
[ 01. March 2015, 00:00: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I don't think that verse has anything to do with forgiveness.
The verse doesn't say "If you have something against your brother" - it says (per OP) if your brother has something against you."
The wording doesn't sound like instruction to forgive, more like an instruction to set right something you made wrong.
Let's say you fire an employee. He's annoyed. Your forgiving him for resenting your action doesn't restore the relationship! Maybe you had good reason like you were tired of his being always late, or maybe you had bad reason like you wanted to get rid of him a day before he would become eligible for an eventual pension.
You approach the altar and remember your employee's resentment, he has something against you. How do you reconcile with him?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
BR - your post is kind of what the OP was about. In the first chunk of Matthew, we have to seek reconciliation because not doing so is bad for us; approaching the altar in pride or vanity where we are the cause of some offence or other is going to do us no good.
My point was just yours - what if someone has offended us, and keeps on doing so?
But folks' posts on here, my experience, and the second chunk of Matthew suggest that forgiveness here _is_ the key. At least, I am practising LC's 'whack-a-mole', which is a fantastically succinct metaphor for what I am going through, using a 'I forgive *** and *** in the name of Christ' mantra, even though I don't at all feel like it - and guess what, it is helping. I have been given a club with which to hit the mole, rather than shouting at him, which just seems to encourage him.
I'm hesitant to unpick what all this might mean spiritually, for fear this presumption will make it all unravel on me (sincerely). Psychologically, it seems to me my forgiveness empowers me, by my assuming the very authority to forgive - and to do so in Christ's name rather than in the name of that newly-found mighty authority of my own puts some kind of guard or pause for thought in, against a love of my own authority mutating my first sin (wrath) into another of the feckers (pride).
I hope that makes sense - it is helping me.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
You could do worse than have a look at the Alcoholics Anonymous publication Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions and read up about Steps 5 & 6. Lots of excellent stuff in there.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Speaking of whackamole, one thing I did which is maybe going to sound very ... whatever, was to speak to the Lord Jesus and say something more or less like this:
"Lord, you know what X did, and keeps doing, and it irritates the hell out of me and I just want to kill him. but I know you don't want this, and it's pulling me under, so, er, would you do me a favor? and drop charges against X in the heavenly court for what he's done to me. I mean, permanently? Whatever retribution is coming to him for what he's done, would you just take it off the record forever? I'm dropping my claim against him. And please help me to forgive him, because he's driving me nuts."
The reasoning behind this odd bit of prayer goes like this.
I assume that there is some sort of divine judgement that takes note of the sins we commit against one another, not just those that are solely and directly against God. Which means that in some sense I may have a divine claim for "damages" against my oppressor. (Witness all the psalms etc. which say things like "Notice what X is doing to me--give me justice against my oppressor, let bad stuff happen to him please." While that kind of revengeful praying is more or less off the table for Christians (who know better, though we don't always follow through), still, if X IS developing a "rap sheet" with God because of the shit he's doing to me (which seems likely), it makes sense that I might be able to ask God to drop the charges. Not that X is going to be forever off the hook with God--I'm sure X has issues to deal with that are strictly between X and God, which I don't even enter into. But the bits that DO pertain to me, I can ask God to strike from the record. Much as Jesus did with "Father, forgive them" or Stephen, with "Lord, don't hold this to their account."
What's the benefit of this, then? Well, I have no way of proving that X is going to benefit at all from this bit of mental messing around. I could be totally mistaken in the way God's justice and mercy works.
But I'll tell you, it does something very useful for me. The next time X's horrible behavior comes into mind, and the old resentments flare up, immediately I remember: "Oh, yeah, I dropped charges against him," and that sort of takes the Ooomph! out of the revenge fantasies. At my own request, God isn't going to do anything negative to him about it; and so there remains nothing now for me but the whackamole game of beating my resentments to death.
Besides, there's some weird psychological quirk where, if you do good to your enemy, he automatically becomes less of an unbearable evil--more of an unbearable relative, or housepet. The nastiness is still there, yes--but now I have a certain investment in his life (and a damn costly one, too) by virtue of having pulled his nuts out of the fire. Which means the total irritation/hatred factor goes down just a wee bit. Maybe not much. But I'll take any help I can get. (by the way, I think this psych mechanism is also behind Josephine's "pray for him" recommendation. It's hard to 100% hate someone you are doing good to.)
Anyway, this is what I do, and anyone who cares to laugh may do so. It works (kind of) for me. And who knows, it may actually have some real-world value when the poor schmuck comes up before God Almighty on Judgement Day. At least there'll be one less charge against him.
Not to mention it pleases the Lord no end. Even if it IS only psychological waffle, I figure the divine happiness at my attempt to obey him is worth a great deal. Because, after all, I love him and want to see him happy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
Matthew 5:43-48
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
I'm afraid this is the point at which I retort, "I'm not God and you can't expect perfection".
I'm not arguing that people shouldn't try to forgive, I think they should. But right now I'm incapable of praying for anyone who's intentionally arranged something to my detriment and is enjoying my reaction. Though these days my response is more cold anger and a weary disgust as I turn away. But sometimes avoiding their company isn't an option and the best you may be able to do is be tersely polite.
In any case, I have currently little or no sense of God. Whatever prayer might be, it isn't working for me and I have drifted well and truly out of the habit. Is there really any point when you are increasingly unconvinced that anyone is either listening or inclined to do anything about whatever you might raise?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hi Ariel
I have had years like that, myself.
At the moment, things are different. As LC has postulated, maybe these are just mind-games - but I know that without prayer, my wrath burns me up. With it - if I can get it out, and thanks to folks on here for helpful suggestions on doing so - something flips off, or down a bit, and in a small way, I am saved.
Without this salvation - at best I am a lost man who can no longer hold together his career and who shakes with rage and shouts to himself under his breath in the street; who frightens his children. At worst, maybe my self-control snaps and life takes a dramatic and perhaps tragic left-turn akin to that of some of the ex-offenders I volunteer with.
This is just by way of offering you a witness to God with what I've got, I suppose. Having had 'dead' times of no-God, I think perhaps I prefer mad times which provide a context for a sense of God's presence.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
St. Maximus the Confessor talked a bit about being tempted to hate. He said, "A soul that is nurtured by hatred toward people can not be at peace with God, Who has said: If you forgive not people their sins, neither shall your Father forgive your sins. If a person does not want to be reconciled, you must at least guard yourself from hating, praying with a pure heart for that one, and speaking no evil of that one."
Pray for them. Speak no evil of them. By doing these two things, you will guard yourself from hate. And that, sometimes, is the best we can do.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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