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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Whenever you have done it to the least of these...
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46
Several thoughts on this passage.
First, I have always thought this smacks of universalism.
The Son of Man comes in all his glory and all nations will be gathered around him.
Second, the criterion for separating the sheep from the goats are based on actions toward the outcasts (not the piety of the person).
Third, I think there will be many on the goat side who would have considered themselves outstanding religious people. No doubt the first listeners could have looked at the corruption going on in the temple and understood. However, I also think it applies to those who consider themselves Christian.
Many countries are struggling with the large influx of undocumented people, I find it interesting that those who claim to be Christian want to send them back to where they came from. Here it the US, much of the resistance seems to be based on skin color.
Some of the American Evangelical leaders have gotten together in response to this resistance and have done a dramatic reading of this passage:
https://vimeo.com/57162315
I know sometimes I feel I can't live up to this standard; but other times I know I have encountered the Christ when I have worked with the outcasts.
Happy Christ the King Feast
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Adam.
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# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
First, I have always thought this smacks of universalism.
Yes, all nations gather around him, but then he sends half the people away, saying "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
That's kind of the opposite of universalism, really. If we want to live wholly and holily with God forever, we better start living with his Son now, who's present in the outcast. If we say no to the poor, we really are saying no to God.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
I really didn't follow how you got from this passage to undocumented immigrants. Whether you take Jesus' criterion-for-judging to be works only, or works-resulting-from-faith, it is still a standard that cuts across every ethnic group, every class and financial and immigration status.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Don't assume the Son of Man will send half the people away.
All Jesus says is that all the nations will be divided between sheep and goats, but there is no hint of the proportion of the division.
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Adam.
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# 4991
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Posted
Sure, it's probably not literally 50%. Could be 99% for all we know; could be 0.00001%. I pray (fervently) for the latter or lower.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Lamb Chopped
Jesus says the Son of Man will say "I was a stranger and you welcomed me."
Undocumented immigrants are just that, strangers.
While I am not advocating opening the borders, I will advocate for more humanitarian reception of them. For instance, all the children who have come over the border fleeing gang violence and other forms of crime. We don't want to send them back into something that is dangerous or life threatening.
What we really need to do is work to improve the living conditions in the countries where they come from so they have a better reason to stay home.
Another example: homeless people. Many communities are beginning to realize it is cheaper to provide housing and wrap around supportive services so people are not forced to live on the streets. There is less crime, less demand on crisis services, less demand on ER visits, and improved outcomes. It is estimated the communities that are doing this are saving $13,000 per individual.
Still another example: the National Center on Family Homelessness just released a report "America's Youngest Outcasts" that says there were 2.5 million children that were homeless in 2013, which is an 8% increase over 2012. That is 1 in 30 children were homeless last year.
This Sunday's Gospel Lesson speaks so much to what is not being done in America (I can only speak about the United States). I fear if we were being judged as a nation, we would be on the goat side.
However, it is clear the Son of Man will separate individuals based on what they have done.
I want to avoid the term "works righteousness" or even "works as a result of faith". The criterion I see the Son of Man using is more about making the Kingdom of God possible in the here and now.
I also think it is quite possible in Christians are not doing this, God will use nonChristians to being about his kingdom. They will be very surprised to find themselves on the sheep side.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Host hat on
Gramps 49, Kerygmania is for discussing the meaning of Bible texts, not for discussing daily life applications. This topic belongs in Purgatory.
Host hat off
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Moo
Thank you. I knew I was skating on the edge.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
On another discussion board people have been pointing out how the parable uses two extremes to make a point:
The first extreme: The Son of Man returns "in all his glory."
The second extreme: "Whenever you do this to the least of these my brothers and sisters, you do it unto me."
It is an upside down kingship
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Moo
Thank you. I knew I was skating on the edge.
That's a perfectly good topic for Purg; it just doesn't belong in Keryg.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
On another discussion board people have been pointing out how the parable uses two extremes to make a point:
The first extreme: The Son of Man returns "in all his glory."
The second extreme: "Whenever you do this to the least of these my brothers and sisters, you do it unto me."
It is an upside down kingship
Yes, that's struck me as well.
Am I right in seeing in the first of those "extremes" an allusion back to OT prophecies and psalms about the vindication of Israel? I'm struggling to think of a specific one off the top of my head, but the ones which speak of Israel being restored, of Jerusalem's/Zion's glory being returned to it and all the nations being drawn to it. Is Jesus drawing on those images in this passage when he speaks of all the nations being gathered around Him?
Another thought (which may be the consequence of having read too much N T Wright!): is Jesus actually talking about something in the future? If Wright's right, then the reference to the "Son of Man coming" is an allusion to Daniel 7, where the Son of Man representing Israel approaches God and is vindicated and victorious over Israel's enemies. Wright also reckons that Jesus sees this happening at the fall of the Temple in 70AD, not at some future "end of the world" event as we often picture it.
If so, then from our POV, this has already happened in some way, this dividing and judging the nations. It made me wonder if this is an ongoing judgement by Jesus, not an "end of the world" one: those who see Jesus in the hungry, thirsty, strangers etc. are the ones who come into the kingdom here and now, not just in the future?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
One interpretation I have seen is that, in the very important context of
1. Jesus as a Jew speaking to Jewish
2. Matthew writing as a Jew for Jewish Christians,
this parable shows the nations of the entire world standing on Judgment day before God the Father, who is judging them on how they have all treated the Jewish nation, the brethren of Christ.
[ 20. November 2014, 17:08: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
There is an view, is there not, that the "brethren referred to in this passage is strictly speaking a reference to the reception of the disciples not humanity in general? (A pity, but probably the case).
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
We had a discussion of such a view here a while back and I'm entirely unconvinced about it, although I recognize that it's not inconsistent with the text. I'd be interested to know why you say "probably the case."
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Well, I privately asked the opinion of a leading conservative-minded leading News Testament scholar of my acquaintance, who I respect, when it was (as you mentioned) last discussed, and he was of the view that it "probably" referred to the disciples.
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Kwesi
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Posted
The argument in favour of a reference to the disciples is that it comes towards the end of a discourse beginning Matthew 24:1 and ending Matthew 26:1 "When Jesus had finished teaching these things, he said to his disciples......."
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Adam.
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# 4991
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Posted
It's Dan Harrington's view, too, and I'd hardly describe him as conservative. This is one of those times I'm grateful that my Sunday preaching doesn't have to be an exegesis lecture. I think Paul put it a little clearer than Matthew here:
quote:
Gal 6:10:
So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.
The familial bonds created by common faith and baptism are real, and charity does indeed begin at home, but it needn't end there.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Jesus returns in glory.
I haven't thought about it before, but a lot of what God does seems upside down to us. A king of kings born in a manger? A savior crucified like a criminal?
Given the strong precedent of entirely wrong expectations about how God will do things -
Do we have entirely wrong expectations of what "glory" means in God's vocabulary?
Jesus returns in glory - what image is in your head and how might that image reflect human ideas of glory that are not God's ideas of glory?
Hmm, I need to ponder.
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Belle Ringer quote:
Jesus returns in glory.
I haven't thought about it before, but a lot of what God does seems upside down to us. A king of kings born in a manger? A savior crucified like a criminal?
Given the strong precedent of entirely wrong expectations about how God will do things -
Do we have entirely wrong expectations of what "glory" means in God's vocabulary?
Further to your point, What does John mean at the opening of his gospel when he said, "We beheld his glory"?
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Belle Ringer quote:
Given the strong precedent of entirely wrong expectations about how God will do things -
Do we have entirely wrong expectations of what "glory" means in God's vocabulary?
Further to your point, What does John mean at the opening of his gospel when he said, "We beheld his glory"?
quote:
Originally posted by Leo:
The cross was Jesus's glorification according to the 4th gospel
All of which suggests the second coming in glory may have more to do with homeless and illegal aliens and other social rejects than with crowds of angels and brilliant golden rays of light?
(Looping thoughts back to the OP.)
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Belle Ringer quote:
Given the strong precedent of entirely wrong expectations about how God will do things -
Do we have entirely wrong expectations of what "glory" means in God's vocabulary?
Further to your point, What does John mean at the opening of his gospel when he said, "We beheld his glory"?
quote:
Originally posted by Leo:
The cross was Jesus's glorification according to the 4th gospel
All of which suggests the second coming in glory may have more to do with homeless and illegal aliens and other social rejects than with crowds of angels and brilliant golden rays of light?
(Looping thoughts back to the OP.)
Which rather unlikely interpretation requires Jesus' birth to be announced by angels surrounded by homeless people, and Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration to be accompanied by a load of illegal aliens?
Glory means the brightness of God's presence.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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fullgospel
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# 18233
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Posted
At times in reading this thread (various comments/ taters), I have felt touched by some sense of His tender love for the poor, outcast and us all.
As Advent draws nigh, it is even more urgent and moving ...
Maranatha ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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on the one hand - self doubt
on the other, the universe that looks through your eyes - your eyes
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