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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Isaiah 7:11 refers to Mary?

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Isaiah 7:11 refers to Mary?
leo
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# 1458

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Margaret Baker says that the dead sea scrolls have Ahaz being told to ask the MOTHER of the LORD to ask for a sign.

I was present at a lecture given by James Alison suggesting that this was a direct reference to Mary.

I can find no footnotes of references from Qumran to support this.

Does anyone know more about this?

My hunch is that it is nonsense.

[ 13. October 2014, 17:14: Message edited by: leo ]

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Adam.

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# 4991

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I'm skeptical. The relevant paragraph in the Baker article can be found by doing a search for "The distinctive readings of" (its first words). She says that photographs show an 'aleph in place of an 'ayin but her footnote concedes that no transcription agrees with her. The published transcriptions are certainly not infallible and we were indeed warned in my Qumran seminar not to rely on them, but go back to the photographs of the scrolls themselves. That said, I believe there are very few errors in the transcriptions, so the burden of argument is very much on her to argue why she reads that grapheme as an 'aleph when the transcribers read it as an 'ayin.

Secondly, 'aleph and 'ayin would have been pronounced the same by the time of the scribes of the Great Isaiah Scroll and were commonly mixed up. "Me'im" is a common compound preposition, literally from-with, which basically just means from.

Thirdly, even if it is "the mother of the Lord," I wouldn't take this to mean "God's mom" in the sense of theotokos, but "the mother whom God is particularly concerned with," ie. the `almah harah (pregnant young woman) of 7:14.

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leo
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# 1458

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That is what I was thinking, though without the detailed knowledge to back it up.

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Adam.

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The Great Isaiah Scroll is online, so I could look at the passage. The grapheme in question is kind of splodgy. I can see how you could just about make it out to be an 'ayin if you squinted right. That doesn't sound like the basis of a strong argument to me.

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leo
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# 1458

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I looked at that before but my Hebrew is rusty, plus I am used to reading the printed type.

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mousethief

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# 953

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IIRC from Hebrew 103 in college (and this was moons upon moons ago), "of the Lord" can just mean "really big" or "really important" and associated ideas. May not have anything to do with God at all. Just as when we say something is god-awful we don't mean that God thinks it's awful, or anything of the sort. We're not saying anything about God at all.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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So, you would accept "Go see Big Mama, she'll give you a sign" as a valid translation?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, you would accept "Go see Big Mama, she'll give you a sign" as a valid translation?

Depends. Does it come with a blues accompaniment?

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Ahaz was down, he was feeling really blue,
Yeah, Ahaz was down, felling really blue.
Then enemy was all around, there was nothing, no thing he could do.

The prophet came to Ahaz, he said he had a word,
Listen to what he says, listen, yeah listen to the Lord.
"Go down to see Big Mama when you're feeling blue,
Go down to see Big Mama that's what you've gotta do.
Big Mama'll show you a sign, and then you'll feel just fine"

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chamois
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# 16204

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Alan Cresswell

[Overused]

Another suggestion: maybe it refers to the woman otherwise known in first Isaiah as "the Prophetess"?

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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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mousethief

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# 953

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I second the [Overused]

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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Thirded [Overused]

And Quotes file-d.

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Martin60
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# 368

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Hunch? Sceptical? British understatement eh?

4thd

[Overused]

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Philip Charles

Ship's cutler
# 618

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Musical setting anyone?
[Help] [Overused]

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Ahaz was down, he was feeling really blue,
Yeah, Ahaz was down, felling really blue.
Then enemy was all around, there was nothing, no thing he could do.

The prophet came to Ahaz, he said he had a word,
Listen to what he says, listen, yeah listen to the Lord.
"Go down to see Big Mama when you're feeling blue,
Go down to see Big Mama that's what you've gotta do.
Big Mama'll show you a sign, and then you'll feel just fine"

So lordy, lordy, lordy, Mama tell me, tell me true,
Oh yeh, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, Mama tell me, tell me true,
Tell me, Oh tell me, if the word applies to me or just to you.
(finish with 7th chord)

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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