|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Julian of Norwich and the Cloud of Unknowing - recommended translations
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I have Julian of Norwich and the Cloud in 1960s translations by Clifton Wolter for Penguin. I understand Penguin has more recent translations. Am I missing anything important through not having the most recent versions? (Elizabeth Spearing for Julian, A Spearing for the Cloud plus related works.)
(Pity the Spirituality board was temporary. That would have been the place for this and any subsequent discussions about Julian.)
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
|
Posted
I've been reading Cloud of Unknowing as translated by Carmen Acevedo Butcher. I find it very readable and understandable.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
I've been reading Cloud of Unknowing as translated by Carmen Acevedo Butcher. I find it very readable and understandable.
I have that one too, and find the same, but I haven't read it in any other translations so can't compare.
I recently bought myself "Julian of Norwich: the Showings" translated by Mirabai Starr, having somehow mislaid my old Penguin translation ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) . It seems very lovely from what I've read and is described by Richard Rohr as "a faithful but freeing translation" which seems a good recommendation.
Another work I find very helpful is "Making All Things Well" by Isobel de Gruchy; 40 meditations on the showings.
--------------------
They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
My translation is also by Clifton Wolter, and it has a fine introduction, I think - most helpful. I am happy to stick with that translation, which, I understand is scholarly and appreciated.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
|
Posted
For the 'Cloud' I like the Halcyon Backhouse translation/paraphrase.
Hodder&Stoughton
You can also find it on Amazon
--------------------
The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
I'm not fond of the Wolters translation personally. Like many of the original Penguin Classics, it homogenises Julian too much, and makes her sound as if she were writing when the translation was done. The new Penguin one is a definite improvement from that point of view, and likewise has an excellent introduction.
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
I may not be as senstive to translation differences so may not be the best judge. What I like about Wolter's version is the detailed and helpful introduction, especially to the 'Cloud'. It comes across as from one who is inspired by the work.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
I've benefitted from the Wolton translations for many years now. Recently I read a modern translation of the Cloud (can't remember which) and I seemed to me to have lost some of the beauty.
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
For Julian: John Skinner (Gracewing 1996) (A Revelation of Love). Clear modern English but he provides a glossary with many of Julian's distinctive and unusual meanings of common words or phrases, some of which have an archaic flavour to us, such as 'buxom', 'beseeking', 'weal' and 'woe'.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I read Lady Julian back in the '70s, under the title "16 Revelations Of Divine Love", IIRC. I've prowled online for that edition, but haven't found it. It was a paperback; I think the publisher may have been Catholic; maybe a gray or tan cover, with calligraphic lettering on the front cover.
I really enjoyed it.
I found this Julian site, crammed with all sorts of info.
Enjoy the book!
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I do have Julian in the original and I did study Middle English at university, so I could well read it in the original and use Wolters as a crib.
Thanks for all the comments, though. I'm interested in a newer version of The Cloud.
(And of course the important thing with prayer classics is not so much reading them, as to get on praying.)
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(And of course the important thing with prayer classics is not so much reading them, as to get on praying.)
Ain't that the truth. I'm much better at reading about prayer than I am at actually doing it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
|
Posted
Father John Julian, who founded the Order of Julian of Norwich, has written a very good translation. They're an Anglican order, with monks and nuns, based in Wisconsin, but they have strong ties to St Julian's church in Norwich too. And of course there's a visitor centre at the church in Norwich with quite an extensive library, so they can give good advice too.
--------------------
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I bought the original Middle English text when I visited the church at Norwich some ten years ago.
I also joined in saying the rosary which they did every day there.
It is an endearingly outer city location, as I remember, near to a ring road with a car dealer's showroom opposite.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Elephenor
Shipmate
# 4026
|
Posted
I'm distinctly not a fan of Wolter's banal translation. It should be sufficient illustration that he transforms Julian's most widely quoted phrase "al shal be wel, and al shal be wel, and al manner of thyng shal be wele" into "it is all going to be all right; it is all going to be all right; everything is going to be all right". There are many better modernisations on the market. (Personally I wouldn't want an edition that protected me from eg. Julian's use of the verb 'to one' [unite] or her talk of 'even-Christians' [fellow Christians].)
If I had to buy a single edition I would go for that of Watson and Jenkins who include both Julian's long and short texts, and exhaustive editorial matter; spelling has been somewhat regularised, though not sufficiently to pass as modern English.
I don't have the experience to recommend any particular modern text of the Cloud. For what it's worth I didn't find Hodgson's Middle English edition for the Early English Text Society hard going; though peppered with thorns and yoghs, which others might find either charming or frustrating.
--------------------
"Man is...a `eucharistic' animal." (Kallistos Ware)
Posts: 214 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Everything's going to be OK, right?
I'd forgotten that - not that I was annoyed or distracted when I read it, as I knew the original phrase.
I'm more interested in The Cloud. I can get the sense and advice on my prayer life from Wolters. Will I miss anything? What's the new Penguin like?
Since Julian in Middle English has been on my shelves for some ten years, I ought to give it a go.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
|
Posted
The Cloud in ME is beautiful - excellent prose as well as a wonderful message.
--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
Father John Julian, who founded the Order of Julian of Norwich, has written a very good translation. They're an Anglican order, with monks and nuns, based in Wisconsin, but they have strong ties to St Julian's church in Norwich too. And of course there's a visitor centre at the church in Norwich with quite an extensive library, so they can give good advice too.
I heartily concur. I tried several translations and Father John Julian's is the one that did it for me.
--------------------
"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
A friend and I are planning to read Revelations of Divine Love together. I would really really like to read it in the original Middle English, but only seem to be able to find translations. Can anyone recommend an edition of the original? Many thanks. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
The version I've got is edited by Marion Glasscoe and published by the University of Exeter, 1976.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I found it for sale in the USA second hand on Abebooks
This is a site for second hand books, so it is being continuously updated and that link may have expired by the time you open it.
But do go back to check Abe from time to time.
[Over-long url edited by Ariel, so as not to break the scroll lock]
[ 04. January 2015, 08:10: Message edited by: Ariel ]
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
May I suggest Tinyurl for those extra-long links - it will avoid breaking the scroll lock on some browsers and look a lot neater on the page.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
This link appears to take you to the source for a pdf of what appears to have started its life as the original text with the spelling etc updated in recusant circles in the C17.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Thank you, ariel.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
|
Posted
Thank you, venbede, for that recommendation; and Enoch, for the link. They do seem the closest I will get commercially to the original text, even though the spelling has been updated - a pity, because I like the old spelling, and find it gives a different rhythm to the reading. I have ordered a copy of the Glasscoe edition, and will keep Enoch's link close to hand.
--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
