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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lost faith, still getting paid
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
In the view from down the road thread:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I find myself reacting negatively to these stories of 'lost faith, but continued to get paid'. Did you pretend? Do you think anyone you ministered to detected you? Are there ethical issues in going through the motions and not believing in what you're doing? Wasn't there a cost to your person?
Which is an interesting point. I take the view that in any job - and some aspect of getting paid for doing things is a job - it is quite possible to lost faith in what you are doing, but still keep on doing it. I am not really sure why faith work as such should be fundamentally different. If you are still providing people with what they need for their faith, surely that is fine?
OTOH, of course, trying to help people develop their faith, their belief, when you have rejected it - and this might mean you have considered it complete rubbish - seems deceitful (it is sales work, not people work). Failing to tell people a truth you have discovered (that Christianity is wrong) when you have been telling them other truths that you have discovered (Christinity works) appears to be a problem.
So I am interested - and I think others will be - in anyones experiences of having lost their faith, while getting paid in some form for having faith.
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I take the view that in any job - and some aspect of getting paid for doing things is a job - it is quite possible to lost faith in what you are doing, but still keep on doing it. I am not really sure why faith work as such should be fundamentally different.
You're not sure why losing your faith shouldn't affect faith work differently from other work? Isn't the clue in the word "faith"? It's not just losing your faith in what you're doing, it's losing your faith in the object of the word "faith" in "faith work" (viz. God). I can't see how not believing in God could possibly have no effect on one's work as a pastor. If it doesn't, then it seems to me one was never truly a pastor, but only going through the motions all along. (And small wonder one should lose one's faith if that's the case.) One's pastoral care then is merely mouthing platitudes and treating people's faith issues with a diagnostic flowchart. It's lacking empathy where empathy is a major (perhaps central) part of the job description. Indeed, you would be faking empathy because you know empathy is part of the job description.
Further both the parish/congo and (if applicable) higher-ups (I'm thinking primarily the bishops in churches that have them) expect that you are a Christian, and therefore you are intentionally deceiving them. Here's a chance for atheists to prove, as they have long averred, that they really are just as capable of acting ethically as believers. Because being in a perpetual state of lying to your employers and your customers is on anybody's reading (I should hope) unethical.
If one hasn't gone all the way to atheist, but has merely come to disbelieve in the theology of one's customers and employers (say, one is in a Trinitarian church and has become a Deist), one is still deceiving them if one does not disclose this fact.
In short, if someone in a pastoral or ministerial role has ceased to believe in the religion they professed to believe in when they were offered the job, they must inform their customers and employers of this fact and suffer the consequences, or they are a liar and a scoundrel. IMHO.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're not sure why losing your faith shouldn't affect faith work differently from other work? Isn't the clue in the word "faith"?
I suppose it depends on what you see your "faith" work as doing. A lot of it is about encouraging other peoples faith, helping and supporting other people in their struggles.
I can see that losing that faith probably means that you are working your way out of a faith role, but meantime, I don't see a problem with it. You can still support other peoples faith, still help others in their struggles, even when you are questioning your own. In fact, it might even be helpful if you understand a struggle with faith.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think there is a difference between doubting, questioning etc, and having decided you do not believe in the central tenets of the faith community paying you to promulgate their beliefs.
Every faith community has a range of beliefs which fall within what they corporately believe, some wider and some narrower, but there are always edges.
If you don't believe in a deity, you don't believe in the existence of a human soul and you don't believe in the ultimate attainment of a transcendsnt state - be that heaven, nirvana or whatever - you should probably not be acting as, or accepting payment for acting as, a pastor/priest/rabbi/imam/guru of a faith community which does profess these things.
It is perfectly possible to be an ethical, compassionate athiest offering support and help to people. But you need not act as an ostensibly religious functionary to do that.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In short, if someone in a pastoral or ministerial role has ceased to believe in the religion they professed to believe in when they were offered the job, they must inform their customers and employers of this fact and suffer the consequences, or they are a liar and a scoundrel. IMHO.
That's where this all goes wrong. People are not customers.
Ministers and congregation share a journey. One may help the other when the going get tough.
I have received better ministry from a doubting priest than from a know-it-all-evangelical.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Ministers and congregation share a journey.
If the minister is an atheist and the congregants are not, then by definition they do NOT share the journey of faith in God.
If you were ministered to by a doubting priest, you only know that because the priest told you. My comments were about somebody pretending to believe what they do not. Oranges and apples, my friend.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Twice I checked out of preschool teaching because I knew I coudn't handle being around kids. It's the kind of job you can't be halfassed about, and boy, am I judgemental about people who clearly don't loke being around kids but stay in childcare jobs anyway.
But is it right that I am judgemental!?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Ministers and congregation share a journey.
If the minister is an atheist and the congregants are not, then by definition they do NOT share the journey of faith in God.
If you were ministered to by a doubting priest, you only know that because the priest told you. My comments were about somebody pretending to believe what they do not. Oranges and apples, my friend.
Not the case at all.
What if a minister and many in the congregation belong to Sea of Faith?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
That would be fine if it falls within the interpretations of the church employing them. Not so much for an RC minister.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In his book on atheism the French atheist philosopher Andre Compte-Sponville advises that a priest who loses his faith should continue in his work as a priest.
His reasoning seems mostly about the importance of tradition, faithfulness to a set of Greco-Judeo-Christian values that he esteems to be worth preserving. For him, unlike the Anglo-Saxon New Atheists, religious faith isn't primarily a source of evil, oppression or error, but a valuable heritage that feeds some people directly, and others indirectly, by giving them a context, a history....
His examples of how to live this as a religious leader are primarily Jewish, interestingly. He seems rather impressed that some rabbis see their religious duties as somewhat independent of God's existence or otherwise. He doesn't use any examples from Christianity.
This sort of approach is harder to justify from the perspective of a sola fidelis religion, but in reality almost all churches end up giving a high priority to tradition and social interaction, so I can imagine that some mainstream church ministers might eventually find these things more meaningful than faith. Some of their church members might agree. In some circles ministers are not necessarily expected to be very spiritual people in any case.
As for evangelical contexts, they're quite ambiguous, aren't they? Evangelical churches often become less evangelical over time. The prominence of strong biblical preaching can slide into an expectation of virtuosic wordplay. Pentecostal pastors even suffer from the stereotype of being clever tricksters! With Pentecostalism the focus can often be on the spiritual high rather than on assent to particular doctrines, so it's not implausible that a pastor outed as an atheist might still be seen as a conduit for God's power.....
Basically, it's the dishonesty that's the problem with non-believing ministers, IMO. But I feel that the whole clergy/laity divide leads to misplaced expectations and duplicity. The system we have makes such problems inevitable.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
There was a long-term rector at my parish, before I got there, who lost his faith. Parishioners from that time say it was quite apparent, and that for the last ten years he just preached social justice. He did serious damage to the parish from which it took years to recover. The lack of trust in leadership was horrible, not to mention all the division that grew up as people took sides over whether they supported the rector or not.
When someone in church leadership is struggling with doubt, yes, sharing that is part of Christians' journey together. But if someone no longer believes in the central tenets of the faith, it is deeply dishonest and wrong to continue in a position of leadership in a church.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Are our beliefs chosen or discovered? It feels to me that they are discovered and explored, and that I need freedom and confidence to continue to do that as a central part of my ministry. If I had to look over my shoulder and reassure others that, of course, I still believed firmly in the central tenets (whatever they might be) of Christinaity, it would rob me of an essential honesty and integrity.
I can see that you might, over the years, end up in a place far from where you began, and that there might be a time for parting company, but I don't think you can live week by week scared of crossing some line, but or worried that entertaining certain thoughts will make you a liar and a con merchant.
Doubt is always close. It keeps faith fresh. And it is usually fundamental. Doubting some trivial point isn't really doubt at all. It is doubting that God is love, doubting that there can be forgiveness, doubting that anything is worth it, that matters. Someone who daredn't ask these questions for fear of the not-what-you're-paid-for brigade would be a poor minister for anyone who living with them, and I don't think you can be a person of faith for long without asking them.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
As I said above, there is a difference between doubt & questioning and having decided you no longer believe.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
With Pentecostalism the focus can often be on the spiritual high rather than on assent to particular doctrines, so it's not implausible that a pastor outed as an atheist might still be seen as a conduit for God's power.....
Fascinating idea! And plausible, given that I seem to recall stories of people continuing to support pastors or evangelists who have been definitively exposed as charlatans.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
Until fairly recently I went to a church where the vicar seemed to have lost any real interest in Christianity - he took services as advertised, preached rather perfunctorily on the readings of the day, avoided pastoral work as much as possible, didn't respond when asked for spiritual support (as I once rather unwisely did) and generally didn't behave as if he thought the Gospel mattered much. I can't make a window into his soul and he may have a private faith, but if so it's one he seems unable to share with others. And like Ruth W's rector, he's damaged the church; a lot of people have left.
But what do you do if you're a priest or minister or pastor who just doesn't believe it any more? A friend of a friend is a former Anglican priest who found he couldn't honestly continue in his ministry; he resigned, trained as a teacher, and is now a happy Zen Buddhist. It couldn't have been easy, but his wife had a well-paid job and could support the family while he retrained. But our former vicar is single so has no one to support him if he wants to train for something else, and would have a tough time going back to his former profession, which he's been out of for twenty years at least. He's trapped; he's doing the church no good, he's almost certainly doing himself no good, but what can he do?
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Klaas Hendrickse is a minister in the Protestant Church in the Netherlands, despite appearing to be an 'atheist'. But he's been honest about himself. And there's obviously a constituency for what he has to offer. In most other cases there's little honesty, or else there's simply a mismatch between what the minister wants to express and what his particular congregation expects.
The link implies that the mainstream churches are willing to pay the salaries of theologians whose beliefs may be pretty well atheistic, so why shouldn't they tolerate and pay their clergy similarly? The two jobs are different, of course, but theologians do train the clergy. The tension highlights the problem of modern mainstream Christianity, which is that the system nurtures theological radicalism from the intellectuals at the top while banking on the allegiance of a more conservative (in some ways) and less informed lay constituency at the bottom.
(On the Ship, though, the problem is often the other way round; clergy who are too evangelical for their congregations....)
[fixed link --AR]
[ 05. January 2015, 14:02: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Margaret:
Until fairly recently I went to a church where the vicar seemed to have lost any real interest in Christianity - he took services as advertised, preached rather perfunctorily on the readings of the day, avoided pastoral work as much as possible, didn't respond when asked for spiritual support (as I once rather unwisely did) and generally didn't behave as if he thought the Gospel mattered much. I can't make a window into his soul and he may have a private faith, but if so it's one he seems unable to share with others. And like Ruth W's rector, he's damaged the church; a lot of people have left.
But what do you do if you're a priest or minister or pastor who just doesn't believe it any more? A friend of a friend is a former Anglican priest who found he couldn't honestly continue in his ministry; he resigned, trained as a teacher, and is now a happy Zen Buddhist. It couldn't have been easy, but his wife had a well-paid job and could support the family while he retrained. But our former vicar is single so has no one to support him if he wants to train for something else, and would have a tough time going back to his former profession, which he's been out of for twenty years at least. He's trapped; he's doing the church no good, he's almost certainly doing himself no good, but what can he do?
Resign, retrain, other people have to change career for reasons beyond their control too.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The link is broken.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The link implies that the mainstream churches are willing to pay the salaries of theologians whose beliefs may be pretty well atheistic, so why shouldn't they tolerate and pay their clergy similarly? The two jobs are different, of course, but theologians do train the clergy.
I think you over-state theologians' influence.
The theologians give some of the classes the clergy are required to take in seminary. Many other things go into training clergy, and many other things have an effect on the faith of clergy members.
The two jobs are different, and I would argue those differences are enough to warrant treating atheist theologians and atheist clergy differently. Theologians are paid to think about theology. Clerics have the cure of souls, in my church at any rate. I don't want a priest who doesn't believe in what he or she is supposed to be doing.
I'm sure it is very difficult to find that you can no longer do your job, but that happens to all kinds of people in all kinds of jobs. The church would do well to make some provision for such people, but they shouldn't be allowed to remain in jobs they really can't do anymore.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Just a couple of cautionary notes on this thread. First, it would be an idiot of a minister who decided to give up pay, home, and probably more than a few friends, until they were sure they had lost their faith rather than, as it were, mislaid it. (Scene - minister wakes up in comfy bed in nice vicarage: "I've lost my faith! I resign!" Cut to the next morning, minister wakes up in cardboard box under a railway bridge: "Oh darn, there it is!")
Secondly, if you're in a congregation and your minister seems thoroughly cheesed off, it might not be God they're cheesed off with - it might be you. Just sayin', as they say.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think we should distinguish between a) a minister who openly takes a liberal questioning view of the world and whose ministry and preaching is based on that - his/her flock know what they are getting and they are consistent and b) a minister who apparently takes a clear stand on various fundamental beliefs who does not in fact believe them and ministers to his/her flock on the basis of these beliefs that they do not in fact share.
a) is OK, b) isnt. b) might arise gradually over time, and we should cut slack to ministers who find themselves there while they sort out what they really believe, but b) isn't sustainable as a long-term game plan.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The link is broken.
Now fixed.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Just a couple of cautionary notes on this thread. First, it would be an idiot of a minister who decided to give up pay, home, and probably more than a few friends, until they were sure they had lost their faith rather than, as it were, mislaid it. (Scene - minister wakes up in comfy bed in nice vicarage: "I've lost my faith! I resign!" Cut to the next morning, minister wakes up in cardboard box under a railway bridge: "Oh darn, there it is!")
Secondly, if you're in a congregation and your minister seems thoroughly cheesed off, it might not be God they're cheesed off with - it might be you. Just sayin', as they say.
Is being a minister/pastor/priest only a profession/job/employment or something else? People talk about it being a calling, and imply it is something more.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'll say a little more to see if we can draw out the issues.
I worked as a civil servant until the gov't restructured, did not apply for a new job but was simply transferred over to a new agency in a different level of gov't. I found I could not support the mission of the new agency, told the administration and left 6 months later. Philosophically, I couldn't abide the direction. Thus I "lost faith" in the organization.
On the personal level, we had preschool children, my wife had left her job to get another degree, and we'd bought a house. I spent more 6 months working for the employer, giving this much notice (~10 years on the job), which was more than the statutory 2 weeks and also the 4 weeks of my specific terms of employment; the thought was to leave with a little bit of savings and to never close a door with an employer negatively. My wife and I decided that I had to do this because my soul wasn't in it, and she liked me better when I was doing something I believed in.
Is this really different than leaving a paid church ministry? The risk, the personal costs etc? Is there something more?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is this really different than leaving a paid church ministry? The risk, the personal costs etc? Is there something more?
Perhaps. As you describe it, you were perfectly qualified and capable of performing the job for the new agency, but you didn't like the agency's goals, so you quit. This is a decision that you made for your own ethical or mental health reasons, but there is no question that you wouldn't have been able to carry on doing an acceptable job had you chosen to, even though you wouldn't have enjoyed it much.
Surely part of a priest's job is to uphold his congregation and community in prayer? I don't see how a priest who has lost his faith can do that, so from that point of view he can't carry out his job functions acceptably.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I think we should distinguish between a) a minister who openly takes a liberal questioning view of the world and whose ministry and preaching is based on that - his/her flock know what they are getting and they are consistent and b) a minister who apparently takes a clear stand on various fundamental beliefs who does not in fact believe them and ministers to his/her flock on the basis of these beliefs that they do not in fact share.
There's a lot of variation in real life. Some congregations expect their preacher to endorse specific doctrines the preacher in fact disagrees with, belief in God is not at issue but belief in some specific doctrines. We all change as we grow, should clergy impose their current beliefs sets on all church members? I don't know.
One book in my library insists many who preach the "rapture" don't believe in it; I have chatted with clergy who pray for healing but don't believe God heals as opposed to just "gives comfort." "[Shrug], they wanted healing prayer so I added one."
If the congregation wants non-central ideas like these, some clergy give it so they can keep their jobs without a big fuss what they see as side issues and be able to teach on what they see as the important central truths.
Perhaps to some, the existence of God is a side issue. Maybe they think humans need ritual and church provides it (what one "we can't know if God exists or not" TEC clergyperson told me).
One friend told me he became clergy because he wanted to help people and social work paid less and provided less job security. He does believe in God. If his motivation is not to convey God awareness but to help people in social work ways, would he think he should leave if he lost his faith?
Is it a job or a calling? Sometimes one sometimes the other. Just because it's a calling to Mrs A doesn't mean Mr B agrees. And I expect sometimes a calling can morph into just a job, and a job can become a calling like an arranged marriage can become a deep love relationship.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is this really different than leaving a paid church ministry? The risk, the personal costs etc? Is there something more?
Perhaps. As you describe it, you were perfectly qualified and capable of performing the job for the new agency, but you didn't like the agency's goals, so you quit. This is a decision that you made for your own ethical or mental health reasons, but there is no question that you wouldn't have been able to carry on doing an acceptable job had you chosen to, even though you wouldn't have enjoyed it much.
Surely part of a priest's job is to uphold his congregation and community in prayer? I don't see how a priest who has lost his faith can do that, so from that point of view he can't carry out his job functions acceptably.
Yes, this is what I wondered. But people are also saying that there are shades of grey and doubt between the belief and non-belief, thus they can do the priest job if not fully shaded into the darkness. I wonder if the full darkness is avoided or denied whilst the secondary reasons are present: financial, family, status etc.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
What about a minister who experiences a crisis in life? The death of a child, depression or something equally difficult might provoke a deep and painful reexamination of faith. It would be strange if it didn't. A wise church might want a minister to continue to preach and pastor through that process, believing that they would gain in power, empathy and insight because of it.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
If after that period of reexamination of faith the minister finds that he or she cannot honestly preach the gospel, what would you have that minister do?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
How would you know when the period was over? I wouldn't expect a snap decision, but I would expect the minister to feel they had moved too far to remain in post. And although house and stipend might persuade ministers to stay too long (when your home comes and goes with your employment you are quite trapped), my suspicion is that ministers are mor likely to go too soon. It must feel very hard leading a congregation through Easter if you own outlook on life is bleak and without hope. It wouldn't, I think, be intellectual problems with the quality of the evidence for an empty tomb or the nature of the risen Christ, but the emotional sense of being trapped in Holy Saturday that would be the decider.
But most of us have those moments, and they can easily last a year or two. I'd be much more concerned about the ministry of someone who was a stranger to doubt. And most of all concerned about a church that eyed its ministers suspiciously for any cracks in their faith.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Questions like 'what if?' and 'why not?' can be the basis of faith and hope. I think too many people are alarmed by what they or others don't believe, and they fail to notice the powerful faith that not only remains, but is all the stronger for being freed by questioning from so many untenable accretions.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Surely part of a priest's job is to uphold his congregation and community in prayer? I don't see how a priest who has lost his faith can do that, so from that point of view he can't carry out his job functions acceptably.
Depends what you mean by prayer.
I know a priest who no longer believes in a personal God but whop says the daily office and prays for the whole parish on a monthly rota basis.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I know a priest who no longer believes in a personal God but whop says the daily office and prays for the whole parish on a monthly rota basis. [/QB]
Who does that Priest pray to? With what hope of a response?
Sounds like he or she needs to get a reality check and resign if in a parish post. Failure to do so is at best hypocrisy and at worst deluding others. If in a teaching position then ditto.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Not at all being flippant....but what is the time span for Not Believing?
One hour?
A day?
One week?
A month?
Or two?
A year?
You see where this ends up?
Lots (most) people in ministry have an OhMyGoodGrief moment.
If every one of those people phoned their bishop when this hit them......
[ 06. January 2015, 17:27: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Then their bishop would need to do pastoral care, be with them in their doubt and questioning and help them discern if their faith was simply changing or actually disappearing.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I know a priest who no longer believes in a personal God but whop says the daily office and prays for the whole parish on a monthly rota basis.
Who does that Priest pray to? With what hope of a response? [/QB]
Not everyone prays 'to' somebody not expects 'a response'.
Lots of Christians intercede in a non-specific way - I certainly don't tell God what to do with my prayers or expect an outcome.
[ 06. January 2015, 18:16: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
How can you be an Anglican or Roman Catholic priest if you don't believe in a personal God ? Isn't that fairly core to the theological posititions of those churches ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
How can you be an Anglican or Roman Catholic priest if you don't believe in a personal God ?
You cannot.
quote:
Isn't that fairly core to the theological positions of those churches ?
Yes. Yes, it is.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I have not entered this discussion because I have no experience of ‘atheist’ ministry and have no wish to condemn or be judgemental of others.
From my present position I see no real problem. The gods of all people in the church come from their creative imaginations (that’s not a put-down). Whether these gods have been learned via preaching and teaching or whether they are more carefully thought-through personal gods makes no difference.
Thus: a minister could be non-theist, recognising no god for him/herself yet acknowledging the gods of his/her church attendees. The task of ministers is, amongst other things, to get alongside those for whom they have some ‘responsibility’ or care. Leaving aside the legitimate discussion on the nature of prayer, it seems to me perfectly possible for a minister to pray with others, on their behalf to their gods. It seems perfectly legitimate to conduct worship (which, after all, is really entertainment ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) on their behalf, reinterpreting the concept of god in a way that is acceptable to everyone.
Given the horrible alternatives suggested by some here, it is a much more kind way of dealing with the real issues of salary, partner, home etc etc.
As it happens, I am much more concerned about the charlatans who prey on members of their churches by promising miracles.
(Thinks: it really does make a tremendous difference when one becomes non-theist )
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Meant to say ...
Leo: ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I like your grounded style.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Would said priest tell the congregants he was minstering to that he did not have a belief in a personal God, and thought that it was a creative social construction - that he was happy to engage with ?
And more specifically, if he were in the Anglican or Roman Catholic communion - is that consistent with the understandings of those churches ?
(It would be a perfectly reasonable position to take within the UK Quaker tradition, including for those in a position of spiritual leadership such as the elders, but I am unclear how fits with more traditional churches.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Would said priest tell the congregants he was minstering to that he did not have a belief in a personal God, and thought that it was a creative social construction - that he was happy to engage with ?
Why would he/she need to state that? If the minister is being true to him/herself there doesn't seem to be an issue to me. Everybody should be happy.
quote:
And more specifically, if he were in the Anglican or Roman Catholic communion - is that consistent with the understandings of those churches ?
I haven't a clue, never having been in those traditions but ISTM such traditions are 'a broad church' accomodating all sorts of different people (as they like to remind us).
As I stated, I would be much more worried about real imposters, as I know are many on The Ship.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
How can you be an Anglican or Roman Catholic priest if you don't believe in a personal God ?
You cannot.
Interesting, showing my ignorance I guess, I would think these are exactly the denominations that explicitly teach that an ordained person who loses faith can continue to be an active priest.
If ordination causes ontological change that is permanent (isn't that what RCC and Anglican teach? But I learned it on the Ship and maybe I learned wrong), then that ontological reality is unaffected by change in belief. The Eucharist in the hands of someone validly ordained and ontologically changed who later lost his faith would still be entirely valid.
Isn't it the churches that don't believe in ontological change that would say a person who loses faith cannot continue in the clergy role?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I think we used to call this 'Once saved, always saved' - sort of opposite of the 'falling away doctrine'. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) That's the fundies for you.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Please unpack "personal".
I suspect there are a number of different meanings going on in this thread.
One is I think based on an acceptance of the classical doctrine of the Trinity.
Another is I think based on the idea that God responds to us as individuals.
Now I can see someone saying: "I do not believe in a personal God" meaning the second while fully accepting the first. Indeed the acceptance of the first could be argued for not accepting God as personal in the second sense.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
When I said this
From my present position I see no real problem. The gods of all people in the church come from their creative imaginations (that’s not a put-down). Whether these gods have been learned via preaching and teaching or whether they are more carefully thought-through personal gods makes no difference
I simply meant that all people's gods are their personal gods. I wasn't meaning 'Personal Saviour'. For me, of course, GOD doesn't respond.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Would said priest tell the congregants he was minstering to that he did not have a belief in a personal God, and thought that it was a creative social construction - that he was happy to engage with ?
Why would he/she need to state that? If the minister is being true to him/herself there doesn't seem to be an issue to me. Everybody should be happy.
[...]
As I stated, I would be much more worried about real imposters, as I know are many on The Ship.
A cynic might say the only difference between the two is simply one of class and good taste! An intellectual clergyman employed by an established denomination versus a rough charismatic pastor who runs an independent church; either might be an atheist who just wants to make a living the only way he knows how; either has the choice of hiding his non-belief or openly leading his congregation into some kind of heresy.
The independent pastor might be stealing too much of the collection for himself, but then again, the mainstream clergyman is probably thinking of his pension. Both of them could end up spreading disillusionment and damaging people's faith, even though the independent charismatic preacher seems to do so with more melodrama.
I think the solution, if we really must have paid clergy, is for congregations not to expect too much of them in any case.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The Eucharist in the hands of someone validly ordained and ontologically changed who later lost his faith would still be entirely valid.
Sure, and a priest engaging in an adulterous affair with his parishioners still validly confects the sacraments, and they are just as efficacious for his flock. The priest himself eats death and condemnation, but he still conducts valid marriages and pronounces valid absolution in the name of the church.
But that doesn't mean that keeping such a person in place is acceptable.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Why would he/she need to state that? If the minister is being true to him/herself there doesn't seem to be an issue to me. Everybody should be happy.
A person who is a Roman Catholic or Anglican priest, and misleads his congregation in the way that you suggest here is a liar.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If ordination causes ontological change that is permanent (isn't that what RCC and Anglican teach? But I learned it on the Ship and maybe I learned wrong), then that ontological reality is unaffected by change in belief.
The Orthodox do not teach this, by the way. A priest can cease to be a priest in the EOC in a way that it cannot happen in the RCC. (I don't know about Anglicans, sorry.)
But as LC points out, just because the efficacy of the sacraments doesn't depend on the worthiness of the president doesn't mean that just anybody can preside, or will be allowed to.
In the Orthodox Church, a priest cannot do the magic with the bread and the wine without a cloth called an antimenson, which belongs to the bishop and is vouchsafed to the priest as a seal of his permission, from that specific bishop, to celebrate the Eucharist. Without it, he cannot, and the bishop can call for its return at his discretion*.
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
From my present position I see no real problem.
You don't see a problem with lying and pretending to be something one is not? That's rather disturbing.
______
*although a bishop who abused that power could conceivably get de-bishoped by the other bishops in the synod.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Why would he/she need to state that?
Honesty.
quote:
If the minister is being true to him/herself there doesn't seem to be an issue to me.
Okay, honesty with everyone else, then.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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