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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How do you deal with the waste (of time, effort, money...)?
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Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
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Posted
I veer from faith to atheism on a regular basis. Sort of attached to a church community, but mostly because I'm the most musical person there who can play the piano if required (but have made very clear I'm not prepared to commit regularly). Had my son baptised and notionally take him to church because, well, if it doesn't count, it doesn't matter, and if it does count, then its a good thing...
But on the days when my atheism is much bigger than the faith - and to be honest, on the days when I believe and I look at other faiths - I bring myself back to the thought that there is such a waste going in to faith.
To quote something I read somewhere (twitter, perhaps?) about the Archbishop of Canterbury's Desert Island Discs 'he may believe in an imaginary friend, but at least his imaginary friend makes him want to do good in the world'.
But so much of belief doesn't manifest itself into 'good things', but into stuff that - without God there - is just a huge amount of waste of time and effort and money.
Thousands, millions of buildings, preserved to worship - what? Music - some of it the most amazing creation - in worship of what? Time spent deliberating the colour of stoles or vestments or whether to have church or pews or hymnbooks or projectors, or whether this food is kosher or not, or where women should sit which could all go to better things. Money - spent on people's salaries, objects for worship, buildings - which could all go straight to good but instead keep up a community of (sometimes) do-gooders.
I can just about believe in a Godless church (synagogue, mosque, whatever) if it Does Something, but the money, time and effort in just keeping it going could go straight to secular activities without the waste about a God.
Never mind the individual's time - already pondered in the 'do you regret' thread - of countless individuals, from several hours on a Sunday morning to whole decades, whole lifetimes, lived in awe of a nothing.
Having seen how faith, and/or church can consume people, the thought that this has been, or could be, just a gigantic waste of time makes me so cross. Am I the only one?
(And yet, when I do believe - or want to believe - a high church mass, or a choral evensong, in a beautiful building - touches something nothing else can reach. How can I reconcile that?)
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose you could see this 'wastage' as resources devoted to celebrating a cultural heritage and identity that you find to be aesthetically pleasing.
In the very long term, the CofE will have far fewer resources to devote to maintaining this heritage. The National Trust says that many, particularly rural, Anglican churches will face closure in a few decades. There will be fewer people like you with a residual vague attachments to these rituals. But in the meantime, someone has to keep the system running, and that involves time, money and effort. In times of change I think many people outside the church appreciate that stability, even if they don't take part themselves.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
My on and off faith issue is whether the institution labeled "church" has any value.
The years I think it's a good thing, I participate actively. The years I doubt it has value, I dearly wish I could have all that wasted time and money back.
Frankly, church turns me off God. When I am NOT involved in any church I grow in God awareness and delight. Then I resume going to church and gradually lose all interest in God as a result of church.
(Maybe some others who lose faith in God are actually responding to negative influence of church?)
How to resolve the periodic crisis of regret? What I am trying is:
1. Accept that I make mistakes. Move on within whatever my current understanding is.
2. Accept that my own past history shows I have times of belief and times of doubt/disdain about church. I will probably continue to alternate. Being aware of that means -
3. Limit involvement in the active church years so I'll have less to regret when the next disbelief phase hits.
4. Choose what ways to participate by what things *I* experience as benefiting *me* (as well as having a good effect on others) so when I hit my next doubt phase I can look back on my involvement without feeling it was all wasted time and effort. At least I got to enjoy using a talent or grew in a skill I wanted to develop or made friends or whatever, not just feel drained.
5. Look for ways outside church to engage with God and express spirituality. If church keeps turning me off, I probably should find a whole other way instead of continuing to repeat the periodic loss of interest in God through periodic church-going.
New discovery (for me) via I course I took on line - Negative experiences cause physical harm to the brain and body by turning off the parasympathetic system and turning on adrenaline. Positive experiences feed you health by turning on the parasympathetic nervous system and turning off adrenaline.
Those who insist it's "good for your soul" to suffer deadly boredom every Sunday morning are actually teaching anti-health and anti-God.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
How do I deal with the waste of time, effort and money expended on the church and my faith?
I suppose I ended up pretty broken when I left - emotionally, financially, mentally, physically, and my identity too. I have had to rebuild slowly - not quite from scratch, but close. I have had to accept that my mental health, physical health, finances and prospects are not what they were and never will be again. I have had to write off those Christian years as a loss, and move on.
I have good friends (mostly atheist) who supported me through it. That was really important to my rebuilding.
I know you are talking about the potential waste of serving the conglomeration that is the church in a greater sense...but that is too big a topic for me!
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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TallPoppy
Shipmate
# 16294
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Posted
You show great courage Potoroo to acknowledge your losses fully and frankly.
TP
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Papaver exaltatum
"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"
Posts: 2389 | From: Southern England | Registered: Mar 2011
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Potoroo
Shipmate
# 13466
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Posted
Thanks, TallPoppy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) You just have to go on with reduced circumstances, don't you... When I think of all that physical and mental energy I had, and time and money, that I devoted all to God, it was such a waste. Luckily I don't think about it much any more.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
Posts: 2778 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2008
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Ferijen
Shipmate
# 4719
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Posted
On non believing days, I tend to see religion as a natural (or at least, signified throughout human history) way of society imposing self regulation, by forming norms, values, ways of life. Sometimes this is a fairly benign influence, other times it is criminally, murderously evil. I suppose some political doctrines could be put in the same box. So perhaps the outlay spent on these constructs in regulating society - in good examples - isn't such a bad thing, just a way of stopping us descending into anarchy.
Posts: 3259 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is it any comfort to think about the fraction of wasted money/effort that actually does wind up funding worthwhile things? Usually by accident.
This would be things that, by any metric, would be worth the investment, and are ornaments to the human race. But at the time no one would've stepped up with the dinero, except the church. The Sistine Chapel would be a good example of this. Or the compositions of Johann Sebastian Bach.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I used to believe in tithing (until God firmly taught me otherwise). Awful lot of money went to church instead of to saving for old age or doing things I would have enjoyed or going back to school.
I have also lost money in bad investment choices. Bad stuff happens, we all make mistakes. And grieve the significant mistakes.
I figure the trick is to not repeat the mistake. It's not just about why did I give all that money to church - what was the mind-set or emotional driver in me or the sales talk that bypassed my usual defenses? Whatever techniques the churches use are also used by non-churches.
Vague guilt imposed. Peer pressure of the seeming example of those around you. Appeal to supposed authority. I see those same approaches used by charities, relatives, caretakers, salespeople, doctors who pressure you to buy a treatment that will do nothing for your health.
Past mistakes are learning opportunity. Expensive, alas, but worth learning. (Wish I could have learned faster, that's all.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think there has been a whole lot of waste - of resources and money - that have been fed into the church that should have gone to people. There has been some positive benefits and resources, produced usually as a side-effect. But they have cost a huge amount.
I want to give my resources and money to people, and there is quite a lot of both that the church no longer has a claim on. I don't think that the church will really miss them. I am not sure that the things the church did with them are things I can support, so even if it does miss them, that might be a good thing.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I guess the way I deal with it, when faced with what looks on the surface like a wicked waste of money, is to remember the expensive pot of nard used to anoint Jesus' feet. Some things are beyond understanding.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I guess the way I deal with it, when faced with what looks on the surface like a wicked waste of money, is to remember the expensive pot of nard used to anoint Jesus' feet. Some things are beyond understanding.
I think this has a validity, but can be used badly too. I suppose it is, for me, more akin to spending money on art or similar. I am not sure whether it can be justified in terms of raising money for a new building for the church, or to pay for a youth worker.
I am not saying that these things are bad, just that they are not, to me the same as a valuable offering from one person to God (rather than the church).
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
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Posted
In short, it has got me to where I am now. So the tension is to conclude 'a waste' so I should be somewhere else or 'of use' so where I am is OK.
I veer towards the later. I struggle more through lack of validation of my journey by others.
Posts: 2350 | Registered: Oct 2007
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