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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK Renewal and Politics
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
An interesting tangent has started on the "Kill the Christians" thread, within which there are some suggestions of recent influential moves towards the political right.
I always thought that one of the distinctions between the UK and US was that open evangelicals (particularly those in the Renewal Movement) tended to lean more to the Left. The Right Wing tendencies seemed to be more associated with Conevos and Cessationists, many of whom have tended to be suspicious of the Renewal Movement.
So I thought this thread might have some traction as a separate subject. And Eutychus has made a hostly suggestion that way.
So here we go. Information, views and opinions will be very welcome.
[ 25. April 2015, 08:42: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not sure about left and right. Komensky mentioned the Alpha Leaders' Conference and its speakers. Last year they had Rick Warren, who if memory serves prayed at Obama's inauguration. But their politics and constituency appear to be much more right-leaning.
This year they have Joyce Meyer ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I was wondering if British charismatics (at least the HTB-type) move to the right because their theological understanding pushes them that way, and so they end up linking with like-minded Americans?
Or is it that their theology itself (and their "management" approach to church life) naturally leads them to associate with the Americans, whose political ideology then influences the Brits? In other words, which is "cause" and which is "effect"?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I don't think it's overly cynical to accuse the likes of Gumbel and the better-heeled UK charismatics of pragmatism as much as anything else.
Among the many helpful insights I've gleaned from the blessed Dr Andrew Walker's writings over the years, is the one that charismatic evangelicals tend to be prone to pragmatism as much as anything else. If something is seen to 'work' or attract attention in some way, they'll take hold of it.
So no, it doesn't surprise me that they have Joyce Meyer's on the platform at their leaders' conference. Never mind the quality, feel the width.
She's got a large following. Hence she must be doing something right in leadership terms in their view. Hence their invitation to her to join them on the platform.
A similar thing happened with New Wine a few years ago when they invited whats-is-face from Bethel over to speak - even though there were misgivings about that, from what I can gather.
Hmmm ... we hear reports that people are getting healed through this Bethel business. Therefore it must be worth a look, let's invite them to come and speak ...
Gumbel's not daft. He knows where the money is. It's in the US. So he'll court Rick Warren, Joyce Meyers or anyone else - left, right or centre - if he thinks it could boost his conference attendance or draw down funding and support from such sources.
It's an all too prevalent tendency across the entire Christian spectrum, of course, witness Patriach Kyrill cosying up to Putin. That's the mirror-image, parallel universe equivalent at the other end of the theological spectrum.
I'm afraid I'm sounding cynical and jaded about the whole thing but I'm very wary of HTB and all that it stands for.
I wouldn't say I'd abandoned a sense of the 'charismatic' or the vatic entirely, but I'm very wary of the platform-ing and celebritisation of it all - to coin an awful word.
Meanwhile, to go back to the question of evangelical charimatic-ness - for which 'renewal' is the short-hand term - and politics ...
Komensky has been involved with HTB and certainly wouldn't rank among its fans. If he says that there's a right-ward agenda there then I am inclined to take his first-hand testimony seriously - but with some caveats.
For one thing, whilst the HTB / well-heeled Anglican former 'Bash Camp' style Anglican evangelicalism is one facet of the charismatic renewal, it is only one of many. There are other voices - although, sadly, I think the whole renewal thing is becoming increasingly homogenised and one-size-fits all in tone ...
I agree with the comment over on the 'Kill the Christians' thread that modern, health-wealth style charismatics do incline towards the right - and that is true of the black and ethnic heritage groups too - although with some nuance.
One of the things that saddens me as your bog-standard Guardian-reading liberal from an aspiring lower-middle class, upper/skilled working class background, is that many of those I knew from working class backgrounds within charismatic-dom have generally moved towards varying shades of health/wealth self-help prosperity gospel-dom.
To some extent, I can understand that. It's partly why Pentecostalism appealed to 'Okies' in the US Mid-West during the Dust Bowls and Great Depression. It's partly why Pentecostalism flourished in the South Wales Valleys and in The Potteries for a time. It's not always a kind of 'get rich quick' thing, more a sense of empowerment and taking 'ownership' ... although it can so easily be hijacked by the delusional and unscrupulous.
Meanwhile, let's not forget that Alderman Thatcher was a devout Methodist and the values his daughter imbibed and promulgated were partly based on a strand that was - and is - still there within non-conformity in general - however working class ...
I think we need to confront and acknowledge that in order to deal with it effectively by showing 'a more excellent way' ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I think we have to be clear what we are and we're not talking about. The HTB contingent (and I'd say associated groups like Vineyard) are not the Right in the same sense that is used in the USA, in my opinion.
The idea that these groups are attempting to force a religious caucus and to persuade congregations to vote Tory (or even UKIP) is just wrong, in my opinion.
In the UK, charismatic evangelical Anglicanism has for many years considered itself to stand above petty party politics.
But, that said, it is probably true that many of the values of this movement are generally Right leading. As I indicated on the other thread, many of the senior Anglican figures which came out of the charismatic Anglican churches led by Holy Trinity Brompton were educated in a small number of private schools, are (or were) often barristers and are or were associated with the Conservative party.
It is a while since I moved in these circles, but I would say the conservative (non-charismatic) evangelicals are considerably more Right-wing than the charismatic Anglicans, though of course the former are much smaller and have much less influence.
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arse
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
FWIW, the New Wine leaders and HTB-influenced charsimatic Anglican clergy I've encountered tend to find themselves in a bit of a cleft stick.
Most of those I've met have naturally between fairly leftward leaning and moderately liberal (in UK terms) ie. centre or slightly left of centre.
However, in terms of their views on DH issues they retain what might be termed a 'right-wing' position.
So, they are in something of a dilemma. They want to capture and harness the kind of oomph and drive they see at the big conferences and that they read about from the Church Growth pundits - which, as Baptist Trainfan identifies, often has a more 'US-style' management-y feel about it.
So, the pragmatic side of them says, 'Right, we'll have some of that ...'
Unfortunately, they then find that this stuff comes with a hook. In taking the bait, the hook enters their mouth. It's barbed. However much they thresh and struggle, they can't shake it off. Meanwhile, that bait tastes ok - a morsel of promise, a crumb of comfort.
Even if they do manage to slip the hook, they hang around expecting more or expecting things to be different the next time. They bite the bobbing piece of fish only to find that there's a barbed hook attached to it again ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Gamaliel speaks my mind better than me.
Although I would also say that the influence of charismatic Anglicans in particular and charismatic movements like New Wine in general have had a very wide influence on the "rump" of the Middle of the Road churches in England - even when those churches were not particularly charismatic nor even particularly evangelical in origin.
So, I think, there are a great number of churches of many denominations which are very much homogenised and look to New Wine for leadership and practice. In many cases it is hard to go to these churches and notice much denominational difference.
But if there is a Right bias, I do not see that this is being fed into these churches. I think it is a mistake to imagine that all churches which look to HTB are demographically like HTB, that is clearly not the case.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Again Gamaliel speaks my mind.
Justin Welby is not a stereotypical Right-wing Tory in my close observations of him when he was in Coventry a few years ago. His denunciations of pay-day loans and speaking out about foodbanks do not seem to me to be from the Tory manifesto.
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arse
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I agree with this:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think we have to be clear what we are and we're not talking about. The HTB contingent (and I'd say associated groups like Vineyard) are not the Right in the same sense that is used in the USA, in my opinion.
The idea that these groups are attempting to force a religious caucus and to persuade congregations to vote Tory (or even UKIP) is just wrong, in my opinion.
I think it's actually more subtle than that. I don't think there's an HQ table somewhere with Gumbel, Welby and other old Etonians sat round it smoking big cigars and going, 'Mwa ha ha ... they're buying it the suckers! We'll have them all voting Tory or UKIP before you can say "ave-a-bicardi gimme-a-shandy sellimahonda ...'"
Overall, I do think that independent evangelicalism in the UK is rather more rightward learning that the Anglican charismatics - but at the same time I don't think it's fair to say that there's any kind of political consensus there either.
My suspicion would be that most independent evangelicals are quite 'right-ward' on DH issues and some fiscal/economic issues too - but on balance, because they are often involved with food banks and so on, they aren't blithely unaware of genuine divisions and needs within our society.
Their answer to that though, is less 'collectivist' and more individualistic - help this person or that person to find the Lord and thereby overcome their difficulties, type of thing ...
I'm not sure it neatly subdivides along party political boundaries.
All that said, I remain suspicious of the kind of 'corporate' and managerial approach I see emerging from the 'Church Growth' specialists and the conference merchants.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I cross-posted with mr cheesy. I think he and I are on similar pages on this one - perhaps because we've come along similar routes.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I would just note that my knowledge of these groups is quite old, so maybe someone is picking up political bias that has changed since my time.
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arse
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
My experience is that evangelicals, of the (UK) Baptist sort, anyway, are rather leftward-tending. But that experience is quite old now, so perhaps it's out of date.
M.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But if there is a Right bias, I do not see that this is being fed into these churches. I think it is a mistake to imagine that all churches which look to HTB are demographically like HTB, that is clearly not the case.
This highlights another aspect of the issue.
Like it or not, these big events have and always have had a trickle-down effect to a much broader constituency. We may foam at the mouth, but we can't deny the influence, and I'd say it's not wholly bad.
I think it would be harder to find anyone more disillusioned than me at last year's Alpha Leaders' conference, but even I found myself grudgingly admitting to a "yes" in answer to the Mystery Worshipper litmus test question "did it make you feel glad to be a Christian".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Like it or not, these big events have and always have had a trickle-down effect to a much broader constituency. We may foam at the mouth, but we can't deny the influence, and I'd say it's not wholly bad.
I don't really understand this comment - are you saying that Right wing politics are trickling down into churches from New Wine/Alpha/Vineyard etc?
[ 25. April 2015, 10:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
No, I'm saying the basic ethos, worship style, etc. is.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
British RCs are consistently likely to vote Labour, even though the RCC is the most publicly 'right-wing' denomination when it comes to DH topics. I don't know how much anxiety this causes, but it shows that DH issues aren't the biggest political priority for most Catholics. Or for most other Christians, I imagine.
According to an Evangelical Alliance article, evangelical voters are all over the shop. The Conservatives and Lib Dems have suffered, but the other parties have mostly benefited. UKIP especially seem to have increased their appeal. I presume that this is mostly in the suburbs and small towns, since evangelicals elsewhere rely on immigrants and people of colour to grow their congregations. Even HTB is becoming rather multicultural now, so I read.
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
@Svitlana - interesting stuff. I'd just copied a link to one of Lord Ashcroft's surveys [URL=]there you go[/URL] looking at voting intentions among people of virus faiths and none.
I've seen some other stuff over the last couple of weeks - I'll link it if I find it again.
The Ashcroft stuff's interesting since it posits some reasons why Christians might be more likely to vote Tory.
Don't know what the picture is north of the border mind - any views on that one? How are Christians in Scotland responding to the current wave of SNP popularity?
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
@Svitlana - interesting stuff. I'd just copied a link to one of Lord Ashcroft's surveys [URL=]there you go[/URL] looking at voting intentions among people of virus faiths and none.
I've seen some other stuff over the last couple of weeks - I'll link it if I find it again.
The Ashcroft stuff's interesting since it posits some reasons why Christians might be more likely to vote Tory.
Don't know what the picture is north of the border mind - any views on that one? How are Christians in Scotland responding to the current wave of SNP popularity?
Here's the link http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christians.more.likely.to.vote.conservative.at.the.general.election.poll/49664.htm
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
As with mr cheesy and M, my experience of these groups is getting rather old now - I only pick things up second or third hand these days.
I have detected a growth in evangelical sympathies towards UKIP-ish ideas, I must admit. Christian Voice seems to be promoting that kind of agenda and of course, a pro-life agenda and other issues of that ilk appeal to evangelicals and to RCs alike ...
Whether this will translate into evangelical votes for UKIP remains to be seen. Personally, I rather doubt it, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.
As to whether the trickle-down effect from the big conferences and conventions in terms of worship style and ethos is a 'good thing' ... well, that depends on where one stands in Ecclesiantics-ish terms.
At one time, I'd have considered it largely a good thing. Now, I'm less sanguine about that. What seems to be trickling down is a kind of studied casualness and a very, very low approach to the eucharist and other sacraments ... and that bothers me.
I'm not saying that Baptists and others don't take the Lord's Supper seriously - I remember some memorable occasions of 'breaking bread' from both my Baptist and my restorationist / 'new church' days ... but what I see emerging these days strikes me as neither fish nor fowl.
This a bit of a tangent, but the practice of having so-called 'prayer ministry' alongside the breaking of bread strikes me as some kind of tacit assumption that its value as a 'converting ordinance' - in Wesleyan terms - is being down-played - that there's an assumption that something 'extra' is needed - ie. models of prayer based on what goes on at the big conventions where people are supposedly 'trained' to be able to hear and discern God's 'voice' as it were and to be able to pray for people more effectively.
All of which is complete bollocks.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Although still counting myself as evangelical, I haven't been actively involved in evangelical groups for too long to judge where they currently are politically.
But, even 20-30 years ago a lot of resources used by British evangelicals came from the US - songs and other worship material, a large proportion of the books on our CU bookstall, since at least Billy Graham speakers from the US have had top billing at evangelical conferences and events, etc. Those resources would have brought with them the socio-political baggage of Evangelicalism in the US.
Is that (presumably) ongoing input from US evangelicalism part of what is driving UK evangelicalism right-ward (if, indeed UK evangelicalism is heading to the right)?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
British RCs are consistently likely to vote Labour, even though the RCC is the most publicly 'right-wing' denomination when it comes to DH topics. I don't know how much anxiety this causes, but it shows that DH issues aren't the biggest political priority for most Catholics. Or for most other Christians, I imagine.
Also, of the DH issues that have political implications, abortion and euthanasia are by convention free votes, and there is no mainstream political party that opposes gay marriage.
[ 25. April 2015, 12:24: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Truman White
Judging from the links you and I have posted, it looks as though British evangelicals as a whole are a bit less likely to be politically right-wing than the CofE as a whole. That's interesting.
Ricardus
I agree that from a political point of view there's no viable political party that plans to move to the right on any DH issues. Our politicians barely even pay lip service to these right-wing positions, so there's little point in (less liberal) British Christians prioritising DH issues when they consider how to vote.
[ 25. April 2015, 12:59: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Conversely, our US friends face the opposite problem - the choice between a right wing candidate and whoever the Republicans put forward leaves no real space for the anyone holding views that would be on the UK political left.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In my experience, if there's any pattern to the way individual Anglicans vote, it tends to reflect whatever the prevailing political tendency is wherever you happen to be ... by and large.
So, out in the shires, and in rural areas the 'CofE vote' tends to be pretty Tory. In towns and cities, much less so.
I know that doesn't 'trump' the facts and figures Truman's supplied but I'm generally wary of generalisations - he generalised ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
You mean 'a right wing candidate and a right wing candidate'?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Or did you mean 'a right wing candidate and whoever the Democrats put forward'?
I think the political landscape has changed to a certain extent in the US from the days when a US visitor could answer a question from a friend of my brother's about the US political system by saying:
'Well, we two main Parties. There's the Republican Party which is rather like your Conservative Party . Then there's the Democratic Party, which is rather like your Conservative Party ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I've attended what is roughly a charismatic evangelical church, though not associated with HTB, for many years. I've no idea of the political opinions of any of the clergy, lay Readers, or churchwardens during that time. The only people I know the opinions of are those people I've become friendly with and know quite well.
From my perspective that's as it should be, I wouldn't want anyone to feel they didn't belong because of their political opinions.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Although still counting myself as evangelical, I haven't been actively involved in evangelical groups for too long to judge where they currently are politically.
But, even 20-30 years ago a lot of resources used by British evangelicals came from the US - songs and other worship material, a large proportion of the books on our CU bookstall, since at least Billy Graham speakers from the US have had top billing at evangelical conferences and events, etc. Those resources would have brought with them the socio-political baggage of Evangelicalism in the US.
Is that (presumably) ongoing input from US evangelicalism part of what is driving UK evangelicalism right-ward (if, indeed UK evangelicalism is heading to the right)?
How do we get from worship material to "socio-economic baggage?" And what "baggage" are you on about anyway?
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
If (for example) you consider 'left' to be more communal and 'right' to be more individualistic then the sort of baggage a more right wing position could introduce to worship material might include worship songs that emphasise a personal relation to God, rather than an emphasis on the relationship of the church to God or between Christians. It could be a leaning towards an expectation of spiritual gifts as being a personal thing, rather than for the edification of the whole church.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If (for example) you consider 'left' to be more communal and 'right' to be more individualistic then the sort of baggage a more right wing position could introduce to worship material might include worship songs that emphasise a personal relation to God, rather than an emphasis on the relationship of the church to God or between Christians. It could be a leaning towards an expectation of spiritual gifts as being a personal thing, rather than for the edification of the whole church.
That makes sense. In a thread somewhere Cliffdweller was saying that the Canadians emphasise community over individualism. Wonder how that plays out with worship material imported from their southern neighbour.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I know a lot of UK churches will change worship song lyrics, "I" becomes "we" where it would still make sense. But, that can't always be done. I noticed that a few weeks ago when a book of worship songs was brought out at church here, compiled by people from the US. A lot of them were too new for me to know, but some of the older ones had subtle changes like that compared to the versions I remembered.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I was wondering if British charismatics (at least the HTB-type) move to the right because their theological understanding pushes them that way, and so they end up linking with like-minded Americans?
Or is it that their theology itself (and their "management" approach to church life) naturally leads them to associate with the Americans, whose political ideology then influences the Brits? In other words, which is "cause" and which is "effect"?
I think there is an effort from evangelical leadership in that way. I was heavily involved at HTB for nearly a decade and if I had to guess, most people in the congregation there are liberals. To be clear, even those that identified as Conservatives would probably be well left of your average American Republican. Sandy Millar was very Right Wing, but Nicky generally took things to the centre and even sometimes to the Left (particularly on social issues), but he soon got in bed with I.D.S. and his fellow Etonian David Cameron. Cameron is scarcely religious, but is only too happy to play the part because he can see that he can get votes from it.
It's a depressing change, but all is not lost for liberal evangelicals. Nicky and his ilk will probably end up with a very different kind of church—more closely aligned with conservative politics and the prosperity/dominionist preachers he so regularly hires for his 'leadership' conference and praises in his sermons (sorry, 'talks') and publications. Nicky Gumbel's list of American preachers that he cites is a parade of shame—if he cared at all.
I think the Vineyard (among other churches) will probably catch a fair number of those liberal evangelicals who won't sign up to the emerging HTB agenda to move to the Right.
K.
[ 25. April 2015, 14:28: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think we can avoid 'baggage' of any kind. From whatever tradition or 'churchmanship' we come from.
I've come across US Episcopalians on-line who are more like 18th century 'Church & King' Anglican Tories than anyone I've ever met in an Anglican setting over here ... more so even that 'Disgusted of Tonbridge Wells' or retired Colonels living in the Cotswolds.
So it's pretty inevitable that anything coming over here from t'other side of the Pond is going to carry some kind of US 'individualistic' virus.
Equally, if we were to imbibe influences from, I dunno, other forms of evangelicalism elsewhere in the world then we'd be importing aspects of their cultural baggage too.
This isn't necessarily an issue, provided we recognise it as an issue and don't assume that the 'baggage' is necessarily part of the package - although in some instances it's probably impossible to disentangle the product from the packaging as it were ...
It's not so much a question of worship-material but a question of ethos.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Meanwhile, Fr Gregory, who used to post regularly on these boards, a rather vocal Orthodox priest ... once told me that although he wouldn't set himself up on an expert on evangelical groups, he was of the view that the Vineyard and similar charismatic churches would gradually incline in a more 'Quaker'-like and quietist direction - albeit allied to a soft-left social agenda.
I can see that happening too, I must admit. There are signs of it already, I think.
Like Komensky, I'd put my money on the Vineyard and the moderately charismatic Baptists heading in a more 'emergent' direction with a soft-left social agenda.
I'm not sure whether Gumbel and HTB will 'harden' into some kind of charismatic version of the 'nasty Party' but I do think Gumbel is playing with fire - not only with Ian Duncan-Smith and Cameron but with the American preachers he's got on his roster.
That might sound strange coming from someone who is standing as a Lib Dem candidate for his local town and Borough elections - given the unholy alliance my own party has been in for the last five years - but then perhaps not ...
The Lib Dems won't win the constituency but they could hold on to this town which is traditionally a Lib Dem one. Labour and the Greens have some support but not enough to swing things.
When the SDP - remember them? - emerged in the early 1980s, many people said that the CofE was no longer the 'Tory Party at prayer' but 'the SDP at prayer'.
By and large, I'd say that most charismatic evangelicals I've come across within the CofE, the Vineyard and the Baptists would largely be vaguely Lib Dem rather than full-on socialist Labour (if such a thing exists post-Blair) or else MoTR 'wet' Tories of the old school pre-Thatcher type - the Ken Clarke type Tory rather than the vicious ones.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
All is not lost for liberal evangelicals. Nicky and his ilk will probably end up with a very different kind of church—more closely aligned with conservative politics and the prosperity/dominionist preachers he so regularly hires for his 'leadership' conference and praises in his sermons (sorry, 'talks') and publications. Nicky Gumbel's list of American preachers that he cites is a parade of shame—if he cared at all.
I think the Vineyard (among other churches) will probably catch a fair number of those liberal evangelicals who won't sign up to the emerging HTB agenda to move to the Right.
Do you think this drift towards prosperity preaching in HTB is at least partly due to the fact that the church is becoming more multicultural, i.e. less dominated by indigenous middle class lay people who are already 'prosperous'?
The Conservative Party is trying to appeal more to BME voters, and perhaps those who deliberately choose to attend the prestigious HTB rather than the 'ethnic churches' are doing so partly because they want to get on in life and escape from low visibility and low expectations. For some, voting Conservative might be part of that, especially since the Labour Party has sometimes been accused of taking the 'ethnic vote' for granted.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think that sections of the UK charismatic scene have been drifting towards 'prosperity gospel' type emphases for some considerable time now - and it's not particularly through the influence of BME churches - many of which take that kind of line.
No, I think it's part of the 'baggage' that comes in from the strong influence of US evangelicalism on the indigeneous evangelical movements in this country - irrespective of ethnicity.
What I think is happening is that some of these strands - which were certainly evident in sections of the UK restorationist or 'new church' movement in the 1980s - have begun to infiltrate the 'renewal' in the mainstream denominations.
To my surprise, I have come across elements of this among Anglican charismatics, who, back in the day, did appear somewhat immune to these particular emphases.
There was an element of this back in the Toronto Blessing days - the Toronto Airport Vineyard had been influenced by preachers from the prosperity gospel end of the spectrum - even though this wasn't part of the overall Vineyard ethos at that time - nor is it now.
This is where the pragmaticism comes into play.
Leaders like Gumbel will pick up on anything and everything that seems to have the burnish of 'success' or numerical growth about it.
The problem then is, that they swallow it all, hook, line and sinker - even if they initially filter out some of the bones ...
The prosperity thing is, to my mind, a lethal bacillus that lurks on the periphery of the charismatic scene and which sometimes enters the mainstream with toxic results.
At best, it can represent a kind of feisty, grass-roots self-help thing - and that's what you get, I think, in some BME churches and within white working-class Pentecostalism to a certain extent.
The trouble is, it so easily tilts over into glitz, glamour and razzamatazz - or into a kind of toxic, carcinogenic fast-food Christianity where people believe that if they only do X, Y and Z and practice this, that or the other techniques they can 'visualise' success or achieve their goals ...
Essentially, it's shit.
There's a good critique of its secular equivalent here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo&feature=share
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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Good points from SvitlanaV2 and Gamaliel. I don't think the trend toward the Right can be attributed to just one thing (nor has anyone here suggested that), but you've provide a few more pieces to think about.
Nicky (like Sandy before him) is a dominionist. Both were frequently talking about the priority of getting Christians into elected office. Just like their American counterparts, they flew the flag that 'this is a Christian nation', etc. and were always praying for more Christians to be elected. At least the Americans have in their favour the fact that they have a secular republic preserved in their constitution. A popular CofE evangelical church here in Canterbury once had someone leading intercessory prayers beseeching God to block marriage equality and telling God that 'we give you permission to smash those who oppose us!', or some such nonsense. That it all par for the course.
Another part of that puzzle is the Alpha Course. The course struggled to make an impact in the USA for several reasons: 1. American evangelicals weren't keen on taking on anything British/commie 2. American evangelicals associated evangelism with sending people abroad 3. Many didn't like the fact that HTB was, in its way, friendly to Catholics (this was also a problem in Norn Iron).
The tension here in Canterbury is palpable. The liberal catholic end of the church and the (increasingly conservative) evangelical wings are moving apart, rather than together (there were encouraging signs in years gone by). This is especially evident when the African bishops come to town. The really get going about the usual issues.
Getting back closer to the point, there is clearly more than one major split happening within the CofE. There is a considerable liberal evangelical community—will they have to choose sides in the predicted schism?
K.
[ 25. April 2015, 18:45: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thinking about it a bit more, I have a slightly different take, possibly linked to the idea of inherent pragmatism.
I think renewalism has moved rightwards in that it has become economically, rather than politically, liberal, as illustrated by the rise of the brand.
This is what has struck me the most about my recent encounters with Alpha in the UK. I naively thought the annual conference was for leaders of Alpha courses, but I soon found these were almost an afterthought in the overall programme.
Alpha is an international brand with notoriety and a set of explicit and implicit values, and a good chunk of market share. There is obviously a lot of money flying around and I suppose it makes some sort of sense to "steward" this with a business-type philosophy.
The original Alpha course is like a manufacturing workflow, too. Put this raw material in one end, and this should be the result, if not, let's tinker with the process to improve its productivity.
Alpha behaves exactly like a multinational company - indeed, at the leaders' conference one could occasionally be forgiven for thinking one was at a multinational's knees-up for its senior executives. It embodies "pastorpreneurship".
I can see how the health & wealth mob fit into that, but I think Alpha's ethos is more one of success, albeit in somewhat worldly terms of influence and status, than necessarily material prosperity.
If I think of Alpha as enterprise, I can more or less live with it. It's when I start comparing it with my current understanding of the Kingdom of God that I start getting the heebie-jeebies.
[x-post]
[ 25. April 2015, 18:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
I can see what you're saying about white working class Pentecostals, but I can't understand why the prosperity gospel would be appealing to the type of British evangelicals who are already fairly well-off - e.g. the HTB folk mentioned above. How much money do they need anyway? (OTOH, I hear that middle class young people in good jobs are being priced out of the housing market in London, so I suppose the prosperity gospel might appeal to them.)
I'm wondering what the opposite of the prosperity gospel is. IME, MOTR churches tend to have an attitude of disapproval towards business and the profit motive. At an extreme level, this could be read as a 'be happy with your lot' theology. I think the danger with this attitude in left-leaning churches is that it assumes that everyone in the church is already middle class and comfortable, and that 'the poor' are on the outside. The church must go out and 'help' the poor, but the poor shouldn't focus on helping themselves to acquire riches. An exaggeration perhaps, but the churches I grew up in were definitely ambivalent about the acquisition of wealth. Maybe it ain't what you do (in wanting to acquire money), but the way that you do it.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Good points.
I would also add that whilst there isn't anything other than innocuous - to my mind - than the concept of Alpha: discussion around a shared meal is a winning format ... there is something other than innocuous, I think, about the way it's developed.
I often wondered why the so-called 'Holy Spirit weekend' was scheduled at the point in the programme that it is ... particularly when it so often seems to lead to defections from the course before it reached some, arguably, more important material (such as the need for repentance etc) ...
In conversation with a liberal vicar, I came to the conclusion that was some kind of filtering mechanism - similar to those employed in certain forms of salesmanship.
By upping the ante with the sudden introduction of 'tongues' and freaky away days, the Alpha organisers were screening out those who were likely to object to the rest of the course. Those who weren't up for the tongues thing cleared off, leaving the way clear for them to concentrate on the more susceptible or receptive punters.
I'm not sure it was ever designed as cynically as that in the board-room, but that's the effect of it, I think.
There are always problems when there's money sloshing about and that applies as much to the Vatican as it does to Creflo Dollars and other US TV evangelists.
So - in a nutshell - yes, I think Eutychus is right to highlight the branding element - because that fits into and feeds into the kind of health-wealth-prosperity mind-set ... even if it isn't couched in those precise terms.
I know it's easy for Guardian-reading middle class professionals to disparage prosperity stuff ... if someone came from the dust-bowls of Oklahoma, deeper into the Valleys of South Wales than I did, or from a struggling ethnic minority community, then one can well understand the attraction.
But Gumbel and his acolytes don't come from any of those backgrounds. They are well-heeled, they are privileged. They are out to manipulate and use these 'techniques' and emphases to gain power and influence for themselves - however genuine their commitment to the Gospel is ... and I don't doubt their sincerity in that respect.
I'd like to think that there are counter-balancing factors at play. I don't think all is lost.
But I do wonder at times.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry SvitlanaV2, I cross-posted with this:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel
I can see what you're saying about white working class Pentecostals, but I can't understand why the prosperity gospel would be appealing to the type of British evangelicals who are already fairly well-off - e.g. the HTB folk mentioned above. How much money do they need anyway? (OTOH, I hear that middle class young people in good jobs are being priced out of the housing market in London, so I suppose the prosperity gospel might appeal to them.)
I'm wondering what the opposite of the prosperity gospel is. IME, MOTR churches tend to have an attitude of disapproval towards business and the profit motive. At an extreme level, this could be read as a 'be happy with your lot' theology. I think the danger with this attitude in left-leaning churches is that it assumes that everyone in the church is already middle class and comfortable, and that 'the poor' are on the outside. The church must go out and 'help' the poor, but the poor shouldn't focus on helping themselves to acquire riches. An exaggeration perhaps, but the churches I grew up in were definitely ambivalent about the acquisition of wealth. Maybe it ain't what you do (in wanting to acquire money), but the way that you do it.
Yes, I think you're raising some pertinent points here. Leftward leaning, 'liberal' forms of Christianity can be more embarrassed about these things in a way that isn't particularly helpful.
However, I don't think it's 'wealth' in the monetary sense that the HTB-ites are after. They already have that. It's more to do with issues of power, extending their franchise and their influence.
Nobody's mentioned 'Constantinianism' here yet -
- but I think the 'dominionist' agenda is something that drives these people to a certain extent.
The difficulty is that, contrasted with moribund MoTR churches that are failing to grow or engage with the wider society, the whole HTB / renewal thing looks dynamic and exciting. Success breeds success and all that.
At best, these things can be positive as they provide a catalyst for people to motivate themselves and work together in a common cause. And yes, for all my wariness, I would be the first to accept that many people influenced by these forms of theology are very generous indeed and fund worthy causes and give of their time, effort and energy.
I think the difference between the HTB version of these tendencies and, say, a working class Pentecostal approach is that in the former they are looking to use these emphases as a means to extend influence for a cause - and an empire perhaps? Whereas in the latter its more of a case of them clutching at straws and latching onto a particular belief system that they consider will lift them out of poverty and disenfranchisement.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The difficulty is that, contrasted with moribund MoTR churches that are failing to grow or engage with the wider society, the whole HTB / renewal thing looks dynamic and exciting. Success breeds success and all that.
That's why they are promoting a brand and not a denomination. You can market it virtually anywhere and you aren't tied down by much property and plant. You might be diverting cash from local churches though.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
Influence? HTB is a famous sending church, home of the world-famous Alpha brand. It's a part of the established CofE, as is the Prime Minister, and I should think a number of powerful people attend worship there. I wouldn't have thought there was much more influence to be had!
I suppose the folks at HTB have to develop in a new and exotic way to prevent the steam from running out, but Dominionism (as far as I understand it) doesn't seem to make much sense in our national context. Oh well. Maybe they're playing a (very, very) long term game and they think the figures add up for that.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Oh come on. Success breeds success. Influence breeds influence. This works and applies everywhere. Why else would the Copts, for instance, want to extend and expand their churches and influence here in the UK? There are Christians here already, aren't there?
Most Christian movements and traditions want to expand and extend their brand or market share as it were.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What HTB is promoting isn't being Anglican as such, it's about promoting a 'brand' that transcends denominational labels. They are promoting a particular way of being Christian - look at the Alpha material and tell me if you can find much that is Anglican' or even sacramental about it. You'd be hard pressed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
What further success do they want, other than the noble success of making more converts? And why do they have to be Dominionists to achieve that?
(As for the Copts, I'd have supposed that most of their growth was due to immigration, but even if not, there are plenty of non-Christians and non-practising Christians here for them to focus on! But I agree that some Christian groups often focus on attracting other Christians rather than reaching out to non-believers. I don't know if HTB is like this.)
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
My NFI (now relational mission) church is very much a mixed bag politically. Amongst my friends most are left wing (including a lecturer in black politics and my own lecturing in health inequalities), several are lib dem voters and some Tories. My own political beliefs probably mean I know more lefties ( I am former shop steward with decidedly left credentials, currently writing a research proposal on a sociaI constructionist approach to disadvantaged students in higher education if that gives you a flavour). I do think my left wing friends are probably more liberal on dead horse issues though, I myself am pro-gay marriage, women in leadership etc. Being in Cambridge may also give us a more liberal bias.
When I lived in London in the 90s and went to St Helen's Bishopsgate (very conservative evo) there were loads of Tories there, probably because it's congregation was mainly white middle class city workers and post graduates. I very much stood out politically. HTB was similar but even posher and richer than St Helen's so it would not surprise me if they were more right wing.
Re: the prosperity gospel in chari churches, during the economic downturn the elders in my church gave themselves a 10% pay cut for a couple of months because the church fell short of the budget. There is certainly no prosperity gospel preached here.
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Oh come on. Success breeds success. Influence breeds influence. This works and applies everywhere. Why else would the Copts, for instance, want to extend and expand their churches and influence here in the UK? There are Christians here already, aren't there?
Most Christian movements and traditions want to expand and extend their brand or market share as it were.
That holds true if you think Christianity in the UK is a finite pool of churches, with each church competing for the affections of the existing membership. Alpha's more about improving market penetration than market share (if you want to use that sort of analogy).
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Things might have changed, Truman, but in the early days of Alpha, I remember Anglican evangelicals saying that its prime impact had been among existing church-goers rather than among the unchurched.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I also think there are more subtle facets to the 'prosperity gospel' - ie. Not about 'filthy lucre' but a sense of well-being, self-actualisation' and so on.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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