|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Is Christianity a destination or a journey?
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I've heard this sort of discussion before, probably most of you have too, and the inevitable resolution that the journey will conclude with the destination, i.e., you agree with tenets of Christianity or convert or whatever, and then live the Christian life, and you'll get to the destination of heaven. Though the interesting catch, which works in our favour: however you live it, you will arrive at Pearly Gates station for your final ride* to meet Jesus and all the related Good People.
This Thanksgiving weekend (Canada), we went out to our cabin and while not eating turkey and playing highly competitive wilderness croquet while drinking and carrying on, the discussion turned to this. The conclusion we seemed to muddle to in the 4 days of intermittent discussion is that we have been ill-focussed within Christendom, on the destination (the heavenly reward) and we should disregard this completely because of the world's desperate need for Christians to live in Christian ways. No more "this is that", but a doing because it is right, not harbouring any idea that anything will be returned. To live as if the reward is oblivion. But to live to right because that is an end in itself. That grace via the belief in Jesus's death and resurrection as the Only Thing Really Required For Salvation has been shown up as ending in moral bankruptcy within the lives of greedy and otherwise nasty Christians, and thus, even if true (this is another debate which we postponed), it ruins the actuality of living Christian lives and the lives of countless millions that the northern, rich, Christian countries exploit today and have for at least 400 years.
While I would note that these strident conclusions were those made by the millennial aged members of our party, I recognised something within them that I haven't really recalled so crisply since perhaps 1977 or 8. That ideas make a difference, and that we must live as shaped by ideals, and late middle aged jaded persons such as myself need to listen more and talk less. Who the holy fuck am I to disagree I ask myself. And I also wondered about our emptying churches, filled with the paunchy balding and greying likes of me. And whether we might turn toward some light we're currently turning away from in this regard, and otherwise repent.
*one of them played and sang this silly thing for us, though I admit I like bluegrass guitar.
[Title spello corrected - B62]
[ 15. October 2013, 20:33: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Sorry, but that looks like a caricature. The most heavenly minded of us usually turn out to be the most earthly good in my experience. They are the ones who have been freed from the constant pressure of the moral law, not because they fall below it, but because with the Holy Spirit living in them, it is now "natural" to them in a way that the good deed counters can never feel. They produce good fruit in the same way a tree does, not by resolutions and studying it out and measurements and tracking, but rather just by living. Weirdly, they seem to fall into some of the more creative ways of doing good as well, just by following what has become their natural bent.
This is maybe not fair of me, but i suspect it's the bean counting moralists who oppress themselves and others the most. The moral law makes such a handy club, you see.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. It seems clear to me that trusting in Jesus grace, his death and resurrection, is precisely what gets me off my ass and out into the world to be useful. It isn't trying to earn heaven--that mindset is diametrically opposed to faith and grace. I mean, if you think you must earn heaven, you will by definition not be trusting in Jesus to deal with it. Your focus will be in the wrong place. Who can be any earthly use when preoccupied by worries about earnjng salvation?
I can't. The only way i can live usefully is if i don't bother my head about heaven--not because it doesn't exist, but because it does andhas already been taken care of for me. Now i can turn my energy to being some use in the world.
Meh, probably clear as mud. I should go to bed.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
|
Posted
Jesus seemed to take it as a given that his audience would think that salvation and heaven were important. He also taught that love is important, that faith is important, and that works are important. When does anyone ever have to choose one of those to the exclusion of another? When do they ever interfere with each other? It seems to me that problems only start when we leave one of them out of the picture.
--------------------
A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The most heavenly minded of us usually turn out to be the most earthly good in my experience. They are the ones who have been freed from the constant pressure of the moral law, not because they fall below it, but because with the Holy Spirit living in them, it is now "natural" to them in a way that the good deed counters can never feel. They produce good fruit in the same way a tree does, not by resolutions and studying it out and measurements and tracking, but rather just by living.
Preach it, sister! My answer to no prophet's question would be that Christianity is a journey, albeit one with a very definite destination. I'd even prefer to describe it as a relationship; Jesus' first followers were routinely called disciples, which broadly means apprentices or students AIUI.
Sure, it's easy to go too far (at least, what many would consider too far) by talking of 'falling in love with Jesus' and so on, but the New Testament is full of relational, familial language referring to the Christians' dealings with one another and with the human-God relationship. So I quite like the cliche that says Christianity is a relationship, not a religion!
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
The word 'journey' has become so overused in recent years. Most of the time what it really means is closer to 'a series of actions'.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Of course it's both/and not either/or.
I think there are equal and opposite dangers at both ends of the spectrum on this one.
The danger with an overly touchy-feely approach to the relational aspect is that it can get bogged down in sentiment and mush ... Jesus-is-my-boyfriend type of thing.
The equal and opposite danger with those groups/individuals which stress the 'journey' aspect is that it can become very vague ... spirituality in its broadest sense without a central focus on Christ.
As ever, there is a continuum between these two extremes.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The equal and opposite danger with those groups/individuals which stress the 'journey' aspect is that it can become very vague ... spirituality in its broadest sense without a central focus on Christ.
Very vague - how so? Certainly what I had in mind was a journey of transformation into ever greater Christlikeness, showing ever more fruit of the Spirit in our lives. That's not vague, is it...?
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
I'm probably in the journey camp. With a big 'but' that I'll coem to in a moment.
The faith is a journey, with several mileposts along the way. One feature about this journey though is that it isn't a motorway. The aim of the journey is more than getting to the end as fast as possible. Our journey is a mountain road, with twists and turns, highs and lows. And, around each new corner, atop each new rise there is another amazing view to be savoured. At the bottom of each valley is a river, a place to rest and enjoy life. Because, ultimately, it is about life, abundant life, real life, the life that can only be found in Christ. It is a journey we take together. We find those views and point them out to others. We find the streams and give refreshing water to others. And, along the way we find fellow travellers who need a helping hand.
OK, I said there was a 'but'. Here it is. I'm not sure the journey has an end. The journey itself is the destination. Simply being on the road is where we are to be. Eventually our journey will pass beyond this earthly life, into a new realm of new experiences and new vistas to wonder at. But, it's a journey into greater experience of the infinite God. How can we ever reach the end of finding new things about God? How can we ever exhaust the reaches of his love?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
|
Posted
The message that I get from the Gospels is that God’s kingdom is of this earth, and that we are to establish it by living it with Jesus in the ways that he has shown us.
I am reminded of a TV item about a youth camp, in which one of the leaders was interviewed expressed pretty much what I’ve just written: that the aim was to encourage the young people to live their lives as Christ taught, as people of the kingdom. Then a young women was spoken to, and she said something very like ‘I’m happy to be a Christian so that I can go to heaven’, if not in exactly those words.
I’m not worried about what may come after this life. See my sig.
GG
--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I wasn't thinking of you, South Coast Kevin, with my 'vague' comment but of a particular brand of very liberal Anglicanism where it's all about 'the journey' and almost anything goes ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Now, what was that Carly Simon song? 'You're so ...'
Or perhaps it was that other, less well known one, 'You're so long-winded Gamaliel that you don't do short posts ...'
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
It depends what we mean by 'Christianity'. Christ is certainly the destination and the One who walks with us on the journey, but Christianity is just packaging. I don't expect heaven to be 'Christian' in any sense associated with the cultural and religious trappings of Church in this life. Christ is the pearl, Christianity is merely the oyster. The oyster (poor thing) is dispensed with, once we have the pearl of greatest price.
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
I'm fed up with the modern habit of referring to almost everything as "a journey":
Participants in The X Factor, The Voice, Strictly Come Dancing, Masterchef, etc all trot out the line about having been on an "incredible* journey" (*optional).
They haven't been anywhere: they may have acquired a new skill or improved on a natural talent but journey - nope!
In the same way, the thing I find most off-putting in some strands of churchgoing in the insistence on personal salvation: my faith or belief, my relationship with God/Christ, my theology of (insert relevant description/label).
When I go to church I'm not going on any journey other than the 6+ miles to church. What I am doing is going to participate in a service with others of broadly like-minded belief, to enjoy time with some of them afterwards, to (I hope) enhance the service with suitable music performed to the highest possible standard.
I also hope that the church I attend can - through being warm, welcoming and friendly - reach out to people in the area who feel lonely, unloved, despairing, etc.
None of these things is a journey other than the trip to church.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
"Journey" is, of course, a metaphor. A way of describing something that is dynamic and changing. I know my faith has changed over the years, what I believe has not remained static. And, even where what I believe hasn't changed the reasons I believe those things have developed, as have how I express those reasons and how those beliefs work out in practice. I have "moved" in where my faith is, I have "seen" new things in a way that is analagous to moving down a road and seeing something new.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
The "journey" and the "destination" are essentially the same thing, which is becoming Christlike.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
I know all about metaphor, I'm just saying this one is so over-used as to be almost meaningless.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
What, ExclamationMark?!!!
Are you telling us that Heaven won't contain Welsh hymn tunes in the minor key, nor a section for Ecclesiantics to indulge their obsessions for eternity?
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
I was rather looking forward to a section of Heaven reserved for an English country parish church at Evensong with the setting sun streaming through the stained glass windows, a reedy, wheezy organ and people singing, 'The day thou gavest, Lord hath ended ...'
I am greatly disappointed ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
To live as if the reward is oblivion. But to live to right because that is an end in itself.
Is it?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I know all about metaphor, I'm just saying this one is so over-used as to be almost meaningless.
Whereas, I think it's frequent use is that it's actually a pretty good metaphor for so many things. In many instances it's a metaphor that is even inacted - what is a pilgrimage if not a journey, in the broadest sense it is a 'sacrament' enacting a spiritual progression, and things like labyrinths work in a similar way to enact a spiritual journey. Something like "Pilgrims Progress" uses the journey metaphor very strongly.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What, ExclamationMark?!!!
Are you telling us that Heaven won't contain Welsh hymn tunes in the minor key, nor a section for Ecclesiantics to indulge their obsessions for eternity?
Er, that's a dirty libel. I haven't said anything here yet. But since you called me Gamaliel .... here's my thoughts.
The idea of "journey" - whether metaphor or real - is over used to the point of redundancy.[I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "emerging" writers refer to it when they can't think of anything more concrete to put down, in case they look like becoming propositional].
ISTM that "journey" means everything and nothing. How about the idea of being rooted and continuing to grow in Christ (c.f. Colossians 2: 6, 7)as an alternative picture? It covers foundation, development, fruit and maturity: being and doing.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Okay, let's dump the word journey, and destination too if you like.
How about:
1/ 'living a Christian life regardless of the disposition of you after your earthly demise is more important than your ticket to heaven'
2/ 'there's something a bit antithetical to living that Christian life for many people if heaven & salvation is the focus'
3/ 'the excess focus on the heaven-goal harms the living of the Christian life'.
the additional not-fully-developed one is
4/ 'the focus on the heaven side of the equation over the living right side has been the alienation of young people from churches, the greying of them, except for the few that preach that your ticket to heaven is proved by your prosperity on earth'. (This would be the 'show me the money' orientation, that although rejected overtly and decried as "prosperity gospel", is actually pursued rather heavily by most of the people in wealthy countries.)
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
When journeying, don't stop believing even after the fall when you have to go your separate ways because the wheel in the sky keeps turning. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 15. October 2013, 13:26: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Libel?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Looks like there's someone else who can't tell when I'm teasing ...
But yes, absolutely, 'journey' is over-used to the point of redundancy both by the 'emergent' crowd and by certain types of liberal.
It reminds me of hymns like 'Brother, sister, let me serve you, Let me be as Christ to you ...'
You know the verse, 'We are pilgrims on a journey ...' da-de-da-dee-da-dah-dah ... (I can't remember the words and can't be arsed to look them up.
All excellent sentiments, no doubt, but I dunno, I go bleurrgghhh!!! at some of the liberal hymns as much as the Jesus-Is-My-Boyfriend choruses.
Whatever the case, though, yes, I think you're right. We need a better metaphor/construction than this tired old cliche.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Gamaliel: We need a better metaphor/construction than this tired old cliche.
It's not in eating the soup, it's in preparing it.
It's not in winning the race, it's in running it.
It's not in finishing the story, it's in telling it.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I get it, so ..
It's not in posting on the thread it's in sitting back and reading it?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Libel?
Looks like there's someone else who can't tell when I'm teasing ...
Looks like there's someone who can't tell the difference between Etymological Evangelical and Exclamation Mark. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Gamaliel:
I get it, so ..
It's not in posting on the thread it's in sitting back and reading it?
We could start a Circus thread about this
FWIW, I largely agree with the sentiment expressed in "It's not about the destination, it's about the journey", but I find the phrase rather stale as well.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The "journey" and the "destination" are essentially the same thing, which is becoming Christlike.
Forgot to say that I agree. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
However clichéd the term has become (you could describe practically anything as a cliché, surely), I still like the metaphor.
And, yes, the destination is just as important as the journey. If not more so. Eternity awaits.
--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I'm not convinced that there is a journey, but oh bugger it, if I argue for that, I've only gone and constructed one.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Laurelin: And, yes, the destination is just as important as the journey. If not more so. Eternity awaits.
FWIW, this is more or less the opposite of what is expressed in "it's about the journey, not about the destination."
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
I'm not sure the journey has an end. The journey itself is the destination. Simply being on the road is where we are to be. Eventually our journey will pass beyond this earthly life, into a new realm of new experiences and new vistas to wonder at. But, it's a journey into greater experience of the infinite God. How can we ever reach the end of finding new things about God? How can we ever exhaust the reaches of his love?
I was going to say that it is both/ and or that they are one and the same but the statements sounded so bald and clinical compared with the beauty of this piece of prose..... ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
As for the journey metaphor, I so agree that things like X factor have diminished it horribly, but the concept remains good as regards the spiritual life....
As the psalmist said "Blessed are the people who have set their hearts on pilgrimage"
I've drawn great comfort from the journey metaphor, especially during the hard times
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
1/ 'living a Christian life regardless of the disposition of you after your earthly demise is more important than your ticket to heaven'
Yes. quote:
2/ 'there's something a bit antithetical to living that Christian life for many people if heaven & salvation is the focus'
Yes quote:
3/ 'the excess focus on the heaven-goal harms the living of the Christian life'.
Yes And inclined to agree with 4 too, but less certain that I can be speak about the young. The 'If we found the bones of Jesus...' thread is moving onto similar ground.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
1/ 'living a Christian life regardless of the disposition of you after your earthly demise is more important than your ticket to heaven'
Yes.
I can't disagree, but the question itself boggles my mind.
quote:
quote:
2/ 'there's something a bit antithetical to living that Christian life for many people if heaven & salvation is the focus'
Yes quote:
3/ 'the excess focus on the heaven-goal harms the living of the Christian life'.
Yes
I can't disagree here, either, but it seems to me that any concept of heaven and salvation that is even a little bit antithetical to living a Christian life is a concept that needs to be re-evaluated. Is there anything in the New Testament to suggest that living a Christian life might somehow detract from salvation, or somehow distract one from getting to heaven?
--------------------
A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
My tablet ate my post, oh woe....
As I understand, heaven is NOT the goal of a Christian's life, Christ is. What matters is to have Christ and be had by him, and the chief value of heaven is that it provides a reasonable mode in which to go on having him. In the absence of the Lord, screw heaven. It would be like getting married without a spouse, or a frame with no picture. Nothing but "fire insurance," which is a miserable substitute for true joy.
If I am correct in this, you can see what follows. Having Christ starts NOW, in this life. Consequently there is no reason to bother your head overmuch about "earning heaven". You have the jewel already, why fuss about the setting? That too will come. In the meantime, get on with the real business of blessedness, which is living in and with Christ, whom you love. And oddly enough, he has this thing where he considers love shown "to the least of these my brothers" to be love shown to him...
This is why the most heavenly minded are the most earthly good. Their priority is loving Christ, not heaven or any other idol. And Christ directs that love into practical service.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
|
Posted
I'm with Alan Cresswell on this one: the journey is in a sense also the destination.
Life must be lived to be known, and for Christ to be known in it - it is not just a collection of isolated snap-shots but a rambling, winding Way in Christ and that journeying shouldn't be counted as nothing. It has meaning in itself: running the race is as important as achieving the goal.
I like what TS Eliot says: "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
--------------------
My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Lamb Chopped: quote:
In the absence of the Lord, screw heaven. It would be like getting married without a spouse, or a frame with no picture. Nothing but "fire insurance," which is a miserable substitute for true joy.
This.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Christianity is the journey, Christ is the destination. In the Kingdom which is to come, the Heavenly Jerusalem, there will be no Christianity, because Christ will be all in all.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Christianity is the journey, Christ is the destination. In the Kingdom which is to come, the Heavenly Jerusalem, there will be no Christianity, because Christ will be all in all.
Sorry if that's a boring repetition of the icon but there have been some great posts in this thread. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As I understand, heaven is NOT the goal of a Christian's life, Christ is. ....
If I am correct in this, you can see what follows. Having Christ starts NOW, in this life. Consequently there is no reason to bother your head overmuch about "earning heaven". ....
This is why the most heavenly minded are the most earthly good. Their priority is loving Christ, not heaven or any other idol. And Christ directs that love into practical service.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Christianity is the journey, Christ is the destination. In the Kingdom which is to come, the Heavenly Jerusalem, there will be no Christianity, because Christ will be all in all.
What you both (and others) have well said is what should be but isn't. Please someone tell me how to have this actually be. In posting this comment, I frankly think that the largest problems with Christianity are often Christians. Who do not focus as you have said.
It really does matter that Christ is invited into every least bit of life, and then intrudes further into the part that we've held back. I would accede that at this point of understanding, it is both the destination and the journey. But I was being critical and rhetorical because I see the heaven-goal as an excessive focus agreeing with the idealism of the young people with whom we spent Thanksgiving with on this.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Well, we were warned that the gate was narrow, and the way strait, "and few there be which find it". I suspect we don't warn people to count the cost of discipleship enough (maybe ever); with the result that most think there IS no cost.
But the answer to that problem? Maybe in seeking God's help to stop being afraid of teaching the unpopular bits of the message. Because as long as people smooth over the "take up your cross" and "lose your life for my sake" bits, I don't think we'll have much luck getting them to sacrifice the cost of a latte, let alone a gas-guzzling SUV. Christianity seems to be an add-on to many lives, and ultimately that's not Christianity.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Be careful about 'taking up your cross'!
I like Soror Magna's sig "Life is a journey, not a guilt trip."
I would say the same here -
"Christianity is a journey, not a guilt trip." It's surprising how often we need to be strong against those who would make it a guilt trip - especially in the way we use our time. I gave up all 'Christian' activity for a while and then only took up the things I knew were good for me, my family, the Church and the community.
It means the number of meetings I attend have been cut by 99%
[ 17. October 2013, 06:01: Message edited by: Boogie ]
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
That chimes Boogie. I'm going through a tad of a 'spiritual crisis' precipitated by last Sunday's service, a quantum leap to heterodox mandatory charismania. It makes me question where I've been journeying for eight years. Another great loop of cognitive dissonance.
Where on Earth can I make a difference? Serve? WHERE can I take up my cross? How? Or is this it?! This realization?
I have proclaimed not despising the day of small things, I have cleaved to not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. For what? To be bullied in to ecstatic speech?
Is THIS the cross?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
You know, I begin to think I come from an alternate universe. I have never had anyone try to guilt me into anything using that verse, nor have i ever heard it used as part of a church rota recruitment tactic. Cross identification has always been an intensely personal thing--who's going to recognize it if not me? It's MY cross, after all, surely I'll know and loathe it when it appears in my life without input from busybodies, church or otherwise? The idea of someone else involving themselves is just too wierd for words, like having someone think they ought to pick out my underwear.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I have never had anyone try to guilt me into anything using that verse
It happens more than you'd think. Like when people use "take up your cross" in support of other demands such as "sacrifice your latte/gas-guzzling SUV".
This whole thread depresses me though. So much of Christianity is a dreary, joyless trek through the valleys of self-denial, sacrifice and unrewarded hard work that sometimes the only bright spot of joy it seems to offer is the promise of Paradise to come... and now we're being told that it's not about that promise in any way, that it's all about the trek itself. As if there's anything at all about that trek that makes it a worthwhile pursuit other than the destination. I don't know, maybe there is for some people. But I can't see it.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
A feeling of effortless superiority? Well, OK, effortful.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
This whole thread depresses me though. So much of Christianity is a dreary, joyless trek through the valleys of self-denial, sacrifice and unrewarded hard work that sometimes the only bright spot of joy it seems to offer is the promise of Paradise to come... and now we're being told that it's not about that promise in any way, that it's all about the trek itself. As if there's anything at all about that trek that makes it a worthwhile pursuit other than the destination. I don't know, maybe there is for some people. But I can't see it.
See to me that's what's depressing. I think of the Christian life as a way of keeping my sanity amidst the relentless depressing nature of life in general. Humans are just fucking stupid frustrating creatures in my opinion (cf the U.S. government lately) Trying to help people out, seeing other people loving, working for justice as they see it? That's redeeming, life-giving. Reminds me that my issues--whether I get all the stuff I think I need--isn't what's important. The Christian life is essential to my sense of perspective. Otherwise I think I'd feel stuck in a rat-race sometimes.
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
