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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The old Eskimo joke and the Priest's response
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
There is a joke that I often hear and circulates online fairly often (visual here ).
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
What should the Priest's response be?
(Bear in mind Jesus says something similar to the Pharisees)
[ 05. June 2014, 10:22: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
There is a joke that I often hear and circulates online fairly often (visual here ).
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
What should the Priest's response be?
"Oops. You've just dropped a depth charge through my attempts to cling to the doctrine of Hell whilst trying to make it out to be fair. I'll go and think things through a bit more."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
"Because salvation isn't just about what happens when you die."
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
So that you could come to glimpse heaven now, and help others to do the same?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Such statements would pale in comparison to eternal torment don't you think?
#thedoctrineofhellisaseriousproblemforthechurch
I wonder if such a person that believed in such a doctrine might respond:
"But you wouldn't know eternal life (both here and later) either."
Is that fair?
[ 05. June 2014, 10:57: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
"So you can inherit eternal life, starting right now"
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Priest: Oh, yes! Well I guess I'll become a Universalist then... Carry on.
Eskimo: Okay. Have a fish.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
IME very few people actually believe this in this unqualified state. Rather they would say that for people who have not heard the gospel they aren't necessarily bound for hell, just that God will deal with them justly on the basis of what they know.
Hence the "why did you tell me?" (implying the telling has doomed him) doesn't necessarily follow.
Of course that's too nuanced for a joke so...
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
EE!! I keep forgetting that in all the stuff you're against you're against damnationism of any kind and therefore ALL is forgivable.
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
[tangent for information]
From wikipedia:
" In Canada and Greenland, the term "Eskimo" has fallen out of favor as it is considered pejorative and has been widely replaced by the term "Inuit,""
No-one would ever call someone "Eskimo" to their face without giving offence. It's probably at the level of "redskin", which like Eskimo, is the name of a football team, but would never be used in connection with a person.
BTW, I have never heard this joke.
[/tangent]
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Mere Nick
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# 11827
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Posted
In Alaska, use Eskimo instead of Inuit, it seems.
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
[ 05. June 2014, 12:41: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
There is a joke that I often hear and circulates online fairly often (visual here ).
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
What should the Priest's response be?
(Bear in mind Jesus says something similar to the Pharisees)
Priest: Because you know more already than you think. You can claim to be ignorant about the teachings that I bring, but the evidence of God's existence is all around you and his moral law is written on your heart. Where you fail to see the true God in nature, and where you fail to follow the good promptings of your heart, this shows the corruption that you share with all humans, including me. But for the mercy of God, this corruption would land us all in hell, for close to God no darkness can persist. Will you find mercy in God's eyes without the gospel that I bring, and enjoy the bliss of being with Him in heaven? I do not know. Perhaps. But I do know that God came down from heaven to bring His love and mercy to us as Jesus Christ, that He gave my Church the means to bring it to all people of the earth, and that it is my duty and my pleasure to bring it to you. So you can continue on your own to grope for the narrow path to God among the shadows. But I have been given light, and I can show you the way that I know is true. Will you let me?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I've never heard this joke either, but would note that my Inuit acquaintances will occasionally use the word eskimo as an adjective in some circumstances, as in "He speaks Eskimo well," possibly because the word for the language (Inuktitut) is considered too difficult for the Qablunaat (white folk) to pronounce.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"Because salvation isn't just about what happens when you die."
bingo. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In Alaska, use Eskimo instead of Inuit, it seems.
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Interesting. Here's from the U of Alaska, Fairbanks, which acknowledges the use in Alaska and the derogatory nature elsewhere. It would seem that technically the word Eskimo doesn't refer to the Inuit and Kalaallit, though in practice it seems to. The man in the OP link looks Inuit to me, but perhaps Yupik people have similar appearance. Kind of like the collective term "Paki" for people who look East Indian I suppose or perhaps "Darkie" for other groups.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Pity Limbo was closed down.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
If being told about anything could change our eternal destiny, it would be a pretty poor eternal destiny. The eskimo/innuit would be right - the best option would be not to tell anyone, and then surely everyone would go to heaven when they died?
But faith, destiny, whatever is not dependent on what we KNOW. It is dependent, if anything, on who we are. Telling someone does not change anything, it just gives us a guideline and a plan for how we should be.
What is more - most - is that it helps us to be better people here on earth. Or at least it should - there are far too many examples of where it doesn't.
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
It';s not an especially funny joke. It can be read as a nasty commentary about priests or about evangelism in general. As people have commented, the priest's answer is hopelessly clumsy. If the priest does not have a good answer to the Eskimo's second question, he should quit his job.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In Alaska, use Eskimo instead of Inuit, it seems.
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Interesting. Here's from the U of Alaska, Fairbanks, which acknowledges the use in Alaska and the derogatory nature elsewhere. It would seem that technically the word Eskimo doesn't refer to the Inuit and Kalaallit, though in practice it seems to. The man in the OP link looks Inuit to me, but perhaps Yupik people have similar appearance. Kind of like the collective term "Paki" for people who look East Indian I suppose or perhaps "Darkie" for other groups.
At a guess I'd say "Negro" was probably the better analogue. I'm not aware of anyone who considers "paki" an acceptable descriptor.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I personally would rather have a terrible life of darkness and ignorance of the gospel if that meant I had no reason to fear going to Hell for something I did or did not believe. I think quite a few would agree.
[ 05. June 2014, 21:18: Message edited by: stonespring ]
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
I remember being asked precisely the same question forty years ago by a skinhead who wandered into a coffee-shop outreach (does anyone still do them?)which we were running.
Don't think he was ethnically Eskimo, Inuit or whatever, and I can't remember what I replied.
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
What should the Priest's response be?
(Bear in mind Jesus says something similar to the Pharisees)
What does Jesus say to the pharisees?
The whole set up doesn't make any sense. If not hearing about God and sin is a free pass in to heaven it would have made no sense for God to make any attempt to reveal himself to mankind in the first place.
[ 06. June 2014, 08:42: Message edited by: Trin ]
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
I can't speak for Nick, of course, but the soul isn't by itself immortal. It's only immortal in that God wills it to be because nothing exists except that God wills it to.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem
I can't speak for Nick, of course, but the soul isn't by itself immortal. It's only immortal in that God wills it to be because nothing exists except that God wills it to.
True. But what if God has willed that the soul (and spirit) of man is inherently immortal? There is a verse of Scripture that seems to imply this: He has put eternity in their hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11).
But, of course, I am proof-texting. So I might be wrong...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'
What should the Priest's response be?
(Bear in mind Jesus says something similar to the Pharisees)
What does Jesus say to the pharisees?
Jesus says to the Pharisees something like if they had not heard him, they would be without sin, but because they had heard his message but rejected it, they would be condemned. Can't remember the verse off the top of my head. Perhaps someone else can oblige.
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
The whole set up doesn't make any sense. If not hearing about God and sin is a free pass in to heaven it would have made no sense for God to make any attempt to reveal himself to mankind in the first place.
Quite right.
But if it is only in the incarnation that heaven (eternal life) is opened up as a possibility, then it makes more sense.
Obviously the reverse becomes true then too. The possibility of eternal condemnation.
Double edged sword?
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
I can't speak for Nick, of course, but the soul isn't by itself immortal. It's only immortal in that God wills it to be because nothing exists except that God wills it to.
Of course. But was eternity available before the advent of Christ? Is that the new thing?
The Te deum says:
When thou hadst overcome the sharpness of death :
thou didst open the Kingdom of Heaven to all believers.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
I can't speak for Nick, of course, but the soul isn't by itself immortal. It's only immortal in that God wills it to be because nothing exists except that God wills it to.
Of course. But was eternity available before the advent of Christ? Is that the new thing?
The Te deum says:
When thou hadst overcome the sharpness of death :
thou didst open the Kingdom of Heaven to all believers.
I believe that the souls in Hades would have continued to exist, only there would have been no heaven and no resurrection. I think that is what the verse from the Te Deum is referring to, that Christ openned to the way to heaven for those in Hades and ultimately the resurrection of the body.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Hades is a Greek conception.
Sheol is the Hebrew and Old Testament one. Quite unlike the visions of hell in the NT. It is a place of nothing - non existence.
The NT visions of hell do not exist in the OT: it is a new thing.
OTOH you have a point. Jesus does descent to Hell in Matthew does he not? Wonder what the Greek term is there....is it reference to Sheol or a kind of hell more descriptive of the type the NT elucidates?
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Priest: Because you know more already than you think. You can claim to be ignorant about the teachings that I bring, but the evidence of God's existence is all around you and his moral law is written on your heart.
What if the Eskimo doesn't see any evidence of God's existence?
[code]
[ 06. June 2014, 12:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Jesus does descent to Hell in Matthew does he not?
Not. Matthew 12:40 refers to Jesus being in the heart of the earth but doesn't mention him going to hell. There are no such references in the NT; the idea of Jesus going to hell came much later, notably in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter and in the Apostles' Creed.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot
What if the Eskimo doesn't see any evidence of God's existence?
Well, in that extremely unlikely event, I suggest that he will be judged by his response to the God who reveals Himself to him when at last they come face to face post mortem. After all, an ignorant arrogant man is no less arrogant than an informed arrogant man. And I suppose one could say the same about humility.
If the Eskimo is genuinely open to God, then, when he is finally required to, he will respond with humility, love and worship. If he is not, then he will not.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot
What if the Eskimo doesn't see any evidence of God's existence?
Well, in that extremely unlikely event, I suggest that he will be judged by his response to the God who reveals Himself to him when at last they come face to face post mortem. After all, an ignorant arrogant man is no less arrogant than an informed arrogant man. And I suppose one could say the same about humility.
If the Eskimo is genuinely open to God, then, when he is finally required to, he will respond with humility, love and worship. If he is not, then he will not.
Why unlikely? I don't see any evidence of God's existence and I don't see myself as being in any way out of the ordinary.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Hades is a Greek conception.
Sheol is the Hebrew and Old Testament one. Quite unlike the visions of hell in the NT. It is a place of nothing - non existence.
The NT visions of hell do not exist in the OT: it is a new thing.
OTOH you have a point. Jesus does descent to Hell in Matthew does he not? Wonder what the Greek term is there....is it reference to Sheol or a kind of hell more descriptive of the type the NT elucidates?
The Greek word used is Hades (which we profess in the Creed, "he descended into Hades"). Christ preached to the souls their, or as St. Peter says in one of his epistles "the spirits in prison".
[ 06. June 2014, 12:52: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Hades is a Greek conception.
Sheol is the Hebrew and Old Testament one. Quite unlike the visions of hell in the NT. It is a place of nothing - non existence.
The NT visions of hell do not exist in the OT: it is a new thing.
OTOH you have a point. Jesus does descent to Hell in Matthew does he not? Wonder what the Greek term is there....is it reference to Sheol or a kind of hell more descriptive of the type the NT elucidates?
The Greek word used is Hades (which we profess in the Creed, "he descended into Hades"). Christ preached to the souls their, or as St. Peter says in one of his epistles "the spirits in prison".
Sorry, I meant the Apostles' Creed, not the Nicene Creed.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
I can't speak for Nick, of course, but the soul isn't by itself immortal. It's only immortal in that God wills it to be because nothing exists except that God wills it to.
You could by the same logic say the soul doesn't by itself exist, because it only exists inasmuch as God wills it to.
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Jesus does descent to Hell in Matthew does he not?
Not. Matthew 12:40 refers to Jesus being in the heart of the earth but doesn't mention him going to hell. There are no such references in the NT; the idea of Jesus going to hell came much later, notably in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter and in the Apostles' Creed.
The Harrowing of Hell is also mentioned by Melito of Sardis, who died in 180. In terms of Christian history, that's like the next day. It is also supported by the passage in 1 Peter 3:19, where it states that Christ preached to the spirits in prison. Granted that's only 2 verses and it's far from conclusive, but it's certainly more biblical support than sola scriptura ever had.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
But what if God has willed that the soul (and spirit) of man is inherently immortal? There is a verse of Scripture that seems to imply this: He has put eternity in their hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11).
But, of course, I am proof-texting. So I might be wrong...
Or you're just misinterpreting. I have seen that verse glossed as saying that he has given them a desire for eternity.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You could by the same logic say the soul doesn't by itself exist, because it only exists inasmuch as God wills it to.
Indeed, and you'd be right because that's exactly what I'm saying. Immortality is only continued exitence for ever and ever.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Jesus does descent to Hell in Matthew does he not?
Not. Matthew 12:40 refers to Jesus being in the heart of the earth but doesn't mention him going to hell. There are no such references in the NT; the idea of Jesus going to hell came much later, notably in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter and in the Apostles' Creed.
So the idea that Jesus opened the way to both heaven AND hell is still possible then.
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a theological scrapbook
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot
I don't see any evidence of God's existence...
Then define what you mean by 'evidence'. What kind of evidence would convince you? What kind of evidence do you think is absent?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
Yes, but it will probably be later on tonight. I'm at the office right now.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot
I don't see any evidence of God's existence...
Then define what you mean by 'evidence'. What kind of evidence would convince you? What kind of evidence do you think is absent?
IANGS, but I think the obvious answer is that there is not a particular kind of evidence that is absent, but rather that there is no evidence that is present.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In Alaska, use Eskimo instead of Inuit, it seems.
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Interesting. Here's from the U of Alaska, Fairbanks, which acknowledges the use in Alaska and the derogatory nature elsewhere. It would seem that technically the word Eskimo doesn't refer to the Inuit and Kalaallit, though in practice it seems to. The man in the OP link looks Inuit to me, but perhaps Yupik people have similar appearance. Kind of like the collective term "Paki" for people who look East Indian I suppose or perhaps "Darkie" for other groups.
Yupik and Inupiaq are related - linguistically, culturally, and genetically. Here they are collectively called "eskimo" which IME has never been used specifically in a derogatory way. The term eskimo is used to refer to the Yupik/Inupaiq/Siberian Yupik language/cultural group collectively, as opposed to the Aleut, the Athabascan, the Tlingit, Tsimshian, Haida, etc. the three "big" distinctions are eskimo, indian, and aleut.
colloquially, "Inuit" is used to refer to Canadian eskimos - i.e. the same linguistic/cultural/genetic family as the Yupik and Inupiaq, but from Canada. Greenlanders are usually considered in their own group.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief
ANGS, but I think the obvious answer is that there is not a particular kind of evidence that is absent, but rather that there is no evidence that is present.
The statement that "no evidence is present" only has meaning if the person making it has some idea what the word 'evidence' means. After all, we cannot say that something is not present if we have no idea at all what it is that is not present!
I might as well say that there is no bloobibogifatipol present. I have no idea what bloobibogifatipol is, but I know that there is none present!!
Clearly that claim is nonsense.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief
ANGS, but I think the obvious answer is that there is not a particular kind of evidence that is absent, but rather that there is no evidence that is present.
The statement that "no evidence is present" only has meaning if the person making it has some idea what the word 'evidence' means. After all, we cannot say that something is not present if we have no idea at all what it is that is not present!
I might as well say that there is no bloobibogifatipol present. I have no idea what bloobibogifatipol is, but I know that there is none present!!
Clearly that claim is nonsense.
But that's easy. Evidence of the existence of God is something that would make GS go, "Oh, I see! That suggests God exists!" He doesn't need to know what form it would take. He would recognize it when he sees it.
Just as I have no idea what would prove a graviton exists, but If a scientist says, "Here, this proves a graviton exists" and explains why this particular bit of evidence does in fact suggest the existence of the particle, then I can say, "Oh yeah, that is evidence of their existence."
The burden of proof is on the scientist who thinks they exist to justify his evidence. Similarly, the burden of proof is on the theist to justify his evidence of God's existence, and why that evidence really is, well, evidence. It is not the duty of the to-date-unconvinced to invent ways to prove God exists. Just as it's not my responsibility to invent tests that might prove the existence of gravitons before I can say, "Nobody has shown me any evidence of gravitons."
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
"He has put eternity in the heart of men" - I don't think this is any proof of the soul being immortal. I did some work on this once, and concluded that it is about us being able to understand the concept of eternity, to desire to live for ever.
And it is in a complex and difficult book, with ideas that are not always easy to engage with.
The message to the Pharisees was very specifically to them - because they had made a deliberate intention to find truth, and had rejected it when they found it (standing in front of them) they were condemned. If they had not made this effort, but accepted the faith of their people, they would have been judged according to their behaviour and attitude, not their explorations.
So if you don't seek out truth, you will be judged according to your attitude. If you seek it, explicitly, then you will be judged based on this search as well. In a sense, there is no difference, but the problem was that the Pharisees considered themselves better than others, because of their learning. Jesus was saying that they were no better, and probably worse.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot
What if the Eskimo doesn't see any evidence of God's existence?
Well, in that extremely unlikely event, I suggest that he will be judged by his response to the God who reveals Himself to him when at last they come face to face post mortem. After all, an ignorant arrogant man is no less arrogant than an informed arrogant man. And I suppose one could say the same about humility.
If the Eskimo is genuinely open to God, then, when he is finally required to, he will respond with humility, love and worship. If he is not, then he will not.
I actually interpreted George's comment literally, and that he was talking about a blind man. Now plenty of blind people are open to God, but it did make me think of people who for medical reasons are alive but not aware of the outside world, or who are only aware of it to a tiny extent. If one is physically incapable of being aware of the outside world, then how can they be aware of God? One needs to be medically able to assent to God as well as theologically/philosophically.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
As to the joke, I question the premise that we are inherently immortal souls.
Can you say more about this?
Yes, but it will probably be later on tonight. I'm at the office right now.
I hope this is concise enough to sum up my current understand of it without having to write a book:
Look at what the OT says about the end of the wicked. It appears to me to describe destruction. In 1 Timothy we are told God alone is immortal. In Romans 6 we are told that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. In Matthew 10 we are told "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm afraid I don't follow. What is the connection between the scripture quotes?
Presumably, that the soul isn't inherently immortal. Only God is.The human soul is a creation of God, and can be destroyed.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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