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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Mustard Seed and the Birds.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13%3A31-32&version=NIV
This is just one parable that we will be hearing this next week.
We have probably heard this so much and have listened its explanation so many times, we probably just take it for granted that the story is about the inevitable growth of the Kingdom of God.
But I think it has some deeper meanings we tend to overlook.
In this parable we are told the mustard seed becomes as big as a tree. Stories of trees in the Hebrew Bible often concern power and rule. Jotham tells a story of trees anointing a king against his brother Abimelech who is staging a coup (Judges 9:7-15). Prophets use tree images to announce God’s power and rule over the imperial powers of Egypt, Assyria, and Babylon (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:1-18; Daniel 4:10-26). The mustard tree then depicts God’s empire that both resists and mimics all other empires to rule over all in a way that promises justice and life rather than oppression.
The nesting birds point to the same vision. The “birds of the heaven” symbolize the people of the nations who have lived under oppression (Ezekiel 17:23; 31:6; Daniel 4:12). In this mustard seed they find welcome and hospitality that supports life rather than destroys it. The parable is a prophetic word both reinscribing and resisting Roman imperial visions.
Consider, for a moment, what such an interpretation would mean to the people of Gaza. They have been under Israeli dominance for over 67 years. The oppression they have experienced makes them feel like they have been in prison for generations.
What would this parable be saying to them? That inevitably God's Kingdom is going to break through the walls that entrap them.
The question is: how long, oh Lord? How long?
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49
Consider, for a moment, what such an interpretation would mean to the people of Gaza. They have been under Israeli dominance for over 67 years. The oppression they have experienced makes them feel like they have been in prison for generations.
What would this parable be saying to them? That inevitably God's Kingdom is going to break through the walls that entrap them.
The question is: how long, oh Lord? How long?
Host hat on
This part of your post does not belong in Kerygmania. If you want to discuss this, do it in Purgatory.
Host hat off
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Our lectionaries must be out of sync right now, that was last week for us, read in conjunction with the immediately preceding parable of the wheat and the weeds growing together. So, the angle I took was twofold: firstly, God gives growth, tiny beginnings do lead to trees which always have room enough for 'just one more,' room enough for our enemies, room enough for us; secondly, where that growth will come from is surprising and can't be figured out in advance. I used Dorothy Day as an example of all of this.
A point I reflected on as I was preparing, but didn't end up mentioning in the homily, was that "birds" can be a metaphor for Gentiles in many Jewish texts (Ulrich Luz points this out). Many commentators read this chapter of Matthew as wrestling with the same question as Paul is working with in Romans 9-11: Why is the Gospel being received by more Gentiles than Jews? What does that say about God's fidelity?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
We only had the wheats and the weeds last service. I think we'll have the mustard seeds this coming Sunday.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Moo
My point about including the Gaza comment was to indicate how people who are oppressed would be hearing the passage. I am not trying to get into a political discussion here. Only trying to show how people in different circumstances can here the same verse differently.
[ 24. July 2014, 15:12: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Gramps49, if you have problems with my hosting, post in the Styx.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've been looking up some stuff about this parable, and I read here that the mustard plant would have been considered a pernicious weed in 1st Century Palestine. This is the first time I heard this. Could this be true? And what would this mean for the parable?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
No problems with your hosting, Moo, I was just using the example of Gaza and wondering how those people will be hearing this story as opposed to how we Westerners usually hear the story.
Now, turning to the mustard seed. (This comes from wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt.
The earliest reference to mustard is in India from a story of Gautama Buddha in the fifth century BC. Gautama Buddha told the story of the grieving mother (Kisa Gotami) and the mustard seed. When a mother loses her only son, she takes his body to the Buddha to find a cure. The Buddha asks her to bring a handful of mustard seeds from a family that has never lost a child, husband, parent, or friend. When the mother is unable to find such a house in her village, she realizes death is common to all, and she cannot be selfish in her grief. The Buddha stated that if an individual were to pick a single mustard seed every hundred years from a seven-mile cube worth of mustard seeds, then by the time the last seed is picked, the age of the world cycle would still continue. (If a mustard seed is 3 mm in diameter, then taking one seed every 100 years from a seven-mile cube of seeds, would take 936 quintillion years, 68 billion times the age of the universe.)
Jewish texts compare the knowable universe to the size of a mustard seed to demonstrate the world's insignificance and to teach humility. The Jewish philosopher Nahmanides mentions the universe expanded from the time of its creation, in which it was the size of a mustard seed.
I find the last point very interesting, considering who astrophysicists are now saying how the universe began (and that their could be more universes out there). But I digress.
Mustard, BTW, is considered a very healthy food too.
And, since I live in a rural area, I can affirm that Mustard weed is very pernicious. It is considered a noxious weed around here and the county can order a landowner to spray it. Yep, there is something to be said about the weed and the kingdom.
[ 25. July 2014, 03:16: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Jewish texts compare the knowable universe to the size of a mustard seed to demonstrate the world's insignificance and to teach humility. The Jewish philosopher Nahmanides mentions the universe expanded from the time of its creation, in which it was the size of a mustard seed.
In the 13th Century (CE). I'm not sure this is of any help in understanding what Jews contemporary to Jesus or Matthew would have thought.
I had never heard of mustard plants being seen as weeds. If some people did, that wasn't the only view of them in the Ancient world. Its kernels could serve as spice, medicine and bird food (Luz cites Dalman for the references to this), so it was certainly a cultivated crop. The Mishna also treats it as a field crop (M. Kil. 3.2).
What is strange (deliberately so, this is a feature of parables) is that someone just plants one seed and that it produces a tree large enough for birds to nest.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Hart: What is strange (deliberately so, this is a feature of parables) is that someone just plants one seed and that it produces a tree large enough for birds to nest.
Except that the mustard plant doesn't. Most varieties only grow a couple of feet high. I guess some could reach 8–10 feet. That may be just enough for birds to build a nest in, but calling it a tree is still a bit of a stretch.
In the Netherlands, mustard is sometimes planted as a fertilizer. I think it binds nitrogen into the soil.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
This is a grown mustard plant image that I've used in teaching. I do hope the Google wasn't lying to me.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
To be honest, I have doubts. I don't rule out that there are varieties that grow that high, but mustard looks like this.
FWIW, Wikipedia also says that birds are unlikely to nest in a mustard plant.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Hart: What is strange (deliberately so, this is a feature of parables) is that someone just plants one seed and that it produces a tree large enough for birds to nest.
Except that the mustard plant doesn't. Most varieties only grow a couple of feet high. I guess some could reach 8–10 feet. That may be just enough for birds to build a nest in, but calling it a tree is still a bit of a stretch.
That was precisely my point. The detail in the parable is strange, because it doesn't happen in nature. The kingdom is not natural.
Your numbers correspond pretty well to what I've found in a few different parables.
Unfortunately, the NAB (which is what we preach from) takes the horticulturally accurate but biblically wimpy option of translating δένδρον (dendron) as 'bush,' which takes all the fun out of things.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Hart: That was precisely my point. The detail in the parable is strange, because it doesn't happen in nature. The kingdom is not natural.
I agree. Some translations of Luke 13:19 even speak of 'a great tree' or 'a large tree'. Now that's really taking it too far.
I think this is interesting. At first sight, it seems that Jesus is explaining truths about the Kingdom by comparing them to simple agricultural practices His listeners were familiar with.
Except that the details are really off sometimes. In last week's parable, the enemy tries to destroy the wheat by sowing weed (probably darnel) in between. WTF?! That's quite a labourious way to destroy someone's crop. Not something that would happen in the everyday life of a farmer.
Interesting.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right rule 1 of plants and animals in the Bible is "do not assume that the plant referred to equates to the modern equivalent with that name". I have know Eagles turn out to be vultures (and maybe owls to). Aloes are sandalwood.
So what of mustard seed, well here is an article by someone more learned than me in the area.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jengie Jon: So what of mustard seed, well here is an article by someone more learned than me in the area.
This article calls the mustard plant a shrub, which seems the right description to me.
I've heard about the hypothesis that Jesus used things from actuality in His parables. Maybe there happened to be this exceptionally large mustard plant at the time that everyone was talking about.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Or more to the point (from Jengie Jon's link):
quote:
A grown black mustard would still be a herb, botanically speaking, but sometimes a very big herb, popularly considered a shrub. There are wild mustard plants over ten feet tall near the Jordan River, and even in moderate climate a mustard plant may grow that tall, provided it gets enough sunshine. It must, moreover, be remarked that generally trees in most parts of the Holy Land do not reach a large stature. The stem of a mustard plant also becomes dry and wood-like, which gives it the aspect of a tree.
So it seems reasonable to me that such a plant could get to be very tall, but didn't always get to be very tall, and that the listeners would recognize it as something they may have seen or at least heard of. Something not ordinary, but not completely out-of-the-ordinary.
I find the article's comment on the nesting birds quite interesting:
quote:
Many have pointed to another problem: that this plant, or any mustard, could not support roosting birds. It seems questionable whether the Gr. Kataskčnoun has to mean this, as many have thought, partly also on the argument that kataskčnoosis in Matth. 8:20 & par. does unquestionably mean "nest." But a very important point is overlooked: by the end of the summer, when the plant has reached its peak in growth, the time for building nests is long past. The word may simply mean 'rest' or 'lodge', which is the more probable as Mark 4:32 says 'under its shadow.'
The parable in Mark 4:30-32
The parable in Matthew 13:31-32
I wonder why Matthew dropped the phrase "under its shadow?" Maybe Mark had more direct experience of the plant than Matthew!
[ 25. July 2014, 15:25: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
In the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew has Christians as the light of the world, and expresses God's indiscriminate goodness by reminding us that the sun shines on the just and unjust. In this speech, he's about to say that the righteous will "shine like the sun" (v. 43). I don't think an image that makes shade good would really work for Matthew!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
I wonder why Matthew dropped the phrase "under its shadow?" Maybe Mark had more direct experience of the plant than Matthew!
Matthew liked to exaggerate. If you compare Matthew's version of a parable or story which is also found in other gospels you can often see that Matthew's version is somehow bigger and better - the giant economy size. Impossibly, ludicrously bumper harvests and so on. It's part of his narrative technique.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
The bit in this story that has always seemed false to me is though the mustard seed is the tiniest of all seeds... I remember as a child thinking wait a minute! I've seen mustard seeds, and they're almost as big as BeeBees. Maybe a poppy seed would have been a better choice.
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"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Try a pansy seed if you want dust-like!
Something's niggling at the back of my mind, that somewhere I saw (in a variant reading, maybe?) "the smallest of all the seeds you plant in the garden"--which would of course make a huge difference depending on what people were growing in gardens then. Compared to a melon seed, squash seed, etc. the mustard seed I have is quite small.
But it won't surprise me if we find out some day that the mustard plant referred to is either a misidentification on our part, or else something extinct (like the Judean date palm they just managed to resurrect from an ancient seed). In any case, the exact plant ID is probably not necessary to the point.
[ 25. July 2014, 22:24: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
The bit in this story that has always seemed false to me is though the mustard seed is the tiniest of all seeds... I remember as a child thinking wait a minute! I've seen mustard seeds, and they're almost as big as BeeBees. Maybe a poppy seed would have been a better choice.
I think the confusion is in part because we grow up thinking that this is what mustard seeds look like, when it's just the way the American spice companies package the ground spice (and you're right about them being the size of BBs). We order the "real" seeds for our Godly Play class and they really are tiny, more like this. When I was a kid I had a charm with a mustard seed inside a magnifying glass like this, with the Matthew 17:20 verse inside.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ooh, thanks for clearing that up. And ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) --I read "beebees" (BBs) as "bumblebees" and was intensely puzzled.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
There are different kinds of mustard trees in Israel, and the mustard seed was the smallest of all the seeds known there and used by those in Israel. Also, notice that Jesus says that when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree so that the birds nest in it. There were many gardens in Israel with many types of plants--many of which were larger than the mustard plant. The olive tree, for example, can grow to 20 feet or more. The mustard tree known as Salvadora persica has extremely small seeds and grows into a small bush. Brassica nigra is a mustard plant that grows to about 8 to 10 feet when mature and is probably the one Jesus was using for his illustration. Jesus would have known that it wasn't the largest of garden plants because of the prevalence of larger plants. Therefore, he was not making a botanical statement of fact. Instead, he was drawing attention to the comparison of the "smallest" to the "largest" and using it to illustrate how the Kingdom of heaven will expand in the world from a very small beginning to a huge presence.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I actually led the service last Sunday (I was only asked to do so on Saturday ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ). The church that I go to here in Brazil used to have big community programmes in the past, but the drying up of funding means that now they only have some small projects.
I talked about the mustard seed parable in two ways: many seeds need love and care to grow, so it's important that we have those qualities in our activities. At the other hand, when worries about what we do seem to overwhelm us, we can trust that they are in God's hands, and that small things can have big impacts.
(I also spoke about how Jesus may have exaggerated a bit about the size of the mustard 'tree' to get His point across. A number of people in the church happen to be teachers/educaters, and they could relate to that )
I don't know if what I said was exegetically correct, but it was well received.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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