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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Um, yeah, he prayed for us. Sure.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't want this to be adversarial but am interested in procedure. I know the RCC has a certain procedure for officially acknowledging saints, and part of that has to be a verifiable miracle brought about by the intercessions of the saint-in-waiting.
I don't want to concentrate on how you verify a miracle, but how you verify it was due to the prayers of that particular dead person. Is it just that the person for whom the miracle happened says, "Yep, I prayed to the Blessed Candidate, and then the miracle happened"? How does the committee (or whatever the right word is) verify that the prayers actually were said pre-miracle?
I'm thinking a family could have a child miraculously recover, but also be in favor of the canonization of some person. They don't pray before the miracle because things are so fraught that they don't think about it. But after the fact they attribute the miracle to the saint because they are devoted to the saint and would have prayed if they had thought of it. Does that count?
What if, God forbid, they aren't terribly attached to this saint, but a friend at church tells them afterwards, "I bit this was because of the prayers of so-and-so" so they say that to the committee?
In short, how does the committee decide that this particular miracle is due to this particular saint candidate?
[spelling]
[ 03. February 2015, 13:47: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes. That's an interesting question.
And suppose I've asked for the intercessions of more than one person, or different members have been involving their own favourite saint, how does the committee decide which saint was responsible? Would I be right in thinking there's a likely to be a presumption that it's more likely to be one who has already been canonised?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I have absolutely no idea.
Not simply because the idea of the invocation of Saints is largely foreign within my Protestant background - although I must admit that I do it occasionally these days ...
But because I really don't have any idea how we could 'tell' or prove that this, that or the other effect was wrought by the intercessions of any particular Saint.
I must admit, I'm intrigued by you asking this question, Mousethief - and using RC examples - because the same thing could be levelled at the Orthodox. How do we know or how can we tell whether this, that or the other Saint was involved in the answer to our prayers?
For instance, I noticed today that St Ansgar, Apostle to the North, is commemorated in the Anglican calendar - he's also commemorated by the Orthodox, the RCs and the Lutherans.
He spent some time in Sweden where he is credited with turning the tide when paganism threatened a resurgence.
I looked him up online and yes, I did the 'High Church' thing and venerated him, invoked his aid ... particularly as I have a colleague I do freelance work with who is in Sweden at the moment and who couldn't open attachments for documents I'd been sending her by email due to some wi-fi and technical difficulties.
Lo and behold, these were resolved and she's been receiving my attachments without difficulty today.
Now, I can't prove whether that was a coincidence, whether it was the result of my prayers to Almighty God - my first port of call - or to the intercessions and intervention of St Ansgar.
Does it really matter?
I don't know.
Would I do it again? Yes, possibly.
Have I got a clue what's going on? Not in the least.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Have I got a clue what's going on? Not in the least.
Gamaliel - you've been around here long enough for everyone to have worked that out for themselves by now. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I'm not RC, so this is also slightly foreign ground for me. But in testimonies I've heard, the prayer often involves something like a pilgrimage, a visit to relics or to a site associated with that person, or something of the sort. Often there will be a local devotion to someone that just springs up from the community who knew the would-be saint before s/he died. I'm thinking of our local saint-to-be, Solanus Casey, a Capuchin friar whose body is entombed just outside a chapel at the Solanus Casey Center. People leave notes and other votives there.
It could be helpful to read testimonials re: saints who have already been canonized and people whose possible canonization is being championed.
Also, check out the Solanus Casey Center's "criteria for reporting a favor received," although for some reason they're only focusing on illnesses being cured. [eta:] That page also has a link where you can read testimonials.
[ 03. February 2015, 18:57: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Roselyn
Shipmate
# 17859
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Posted
After hearing that certain saints were to be removed from the list or somesuch I thought that this would make little difference as there are surely hundreds of completely unrecognised saints who can be rostered to respond to prayers offered in the case of saints now believed to be never existent. Maybe they could also help out when Our Lady was busy working in one of her named positions.
Posts: 98 | From: gold coast gld australia | Registered: Oct 2013
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
A summary of the rather involved procedure can be found here.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm thinking a family could have a child miraculously recover, but also be in favor of the canonization of some person. They don't pray before the miracle because things are so fraught that they don't think about it. But after the fact they attribute the miracle to the saint because they are devoted to the saint and would have prayed if they had thought of it. Does that count?
No, that does not count.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What if, God forbid, they aren't terribly attached to this saint, but a friend at church tells them afterwards, "I bit this was because of the prayers of so-and-so" so they say that to the committee? In short, how does the committee decide that this particular miracle is due to this particular saint candidate?
In the end the committee can do little more than query the people involved, since they cannot read minds. It helps indeed if there is some external circumstance that makes the claims more believable (like regular visits to a shrine, or whatever). But that's neither required nor sure protection against fraud. If the people involved choose to lie to the committee, and if they do so consistently and well, then they can certainly mislead the committee.
Of course, two independent miracles are required for sainthood. This lowers the chance of fraud considerably, since a single miracle is proof enough, but a double fraud is unlikely. But ultimately what nowadays guarantees the correctness of the canonisation is that it is left to the pope, and generally considered as one of his "ex cathedra" definitions, which are infallible.
However, canonisation actually only states that some person is in heaven, and that the faithful can now venerate that person in public worship of the Church. While the intention is to canonise only heroic saints, the procedure only guarantees the "saint" bit, not the "heroic" bit. And before the canonisation procedure was centralised, it was quite wild. Certainly not all saints on the RC calendar were exemplary, and some of them may never have existed.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
When I had a recurrence of breast cancer an Order who are trying to get their Foundress canonised asked if they could pray a Novena for me.
They did. I am well.
I am sure it helped, even significantly, but between that and a miracle...and attributing it...no, I'm very sorry
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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