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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kristallnacht 2.0
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
I don't think many details are known about the latest incident in Denmark, but clearly Jews were again targeted in a violent attack. It again led Netanyahu to proclaim the door wide open for the Jews of Europe. A scan of statistics shows a large spike over the last ten years of Jews leaving Europe for Israel. I am assuming there are strong legal protections in place for religious minorities. Why is not that stopping people leaving? Is it inevitable that Europe will lose its Jewish population beyond a scant minority such as can be found in Tunisia?
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I don't think most British Jews have much intention of going anywhere. Places where anti-Semitism is a bit more mainstream? Maybe.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Its not KN unless it general and gov't sponsored. Accompanied by antisemetic gov't decrees. That said, the violence will continue to be transferred from the Middle East into the West. It is a transfer.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
To compare a terrorist killing a guard at a synagogue with the hundreds killed, thousands arrested and numerous buildings destroyed in Kristallnacht is rhetorical excess.
For one thing, the society as a whole has responded with protest of the actions.
Some people emigrate from Europe because they feel threatened. In part this is a reflection of the Israel/Palestinian war onto the Jews and Muslims of Europe. A number of Jewish and National leaders criticise Benjamin Netanyahus call for emigration
There are lots of reasons why people emigrate. I suspect a number of the Ukraine emigrants are worried about not only terrorism but economic stability. But few people think that Israel is a great place to go to avoid terrorism.
That's why there's also a significant reverse flow of Israelis seek European Citizenship
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Exactly. Kristallnacht was state sponsored antisemitism. The Danish government is not orchestrating antisemitism.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
A German rabbi was quoted by Tagesschau this evening describing Netanyahu's invitation as extremely unhelpful, and stressing that Bibi doesn't speak for all Jews. There's a lot of currents here, but it's just as mistaken to regard Jews as monolithic as Christians or Muslims.
And yes, 'Kristallnacht' is a colossally tasteless bit of hyperbole.
May all the victims of these attacks rest in peace; 'the Lord our God is one'.
t
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Little devil
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Maybe not Kristallnacht, but certainly reminiscent of the violence against Jews preceding it.
And Israel may not be the safest place to go, but at least emmigrating Jews can be assured that their fellow Israeli citizens are in it with them for the long haul and won't be tempted to throw them under a bus for the sake of community relations.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Maybe not Kristallnacht, but certainly reminiscent of the violence against Jews preceding it.
Let me spell this out: Kristallnacht, and the events preceding it, were orchestrated by a fascist government whose rise to power rested on an appeal to the prejudices of the majority.
Denmark is not governed by Muslim extremists, nor is any other country in Europe. Nor is there any European country where such people have any significant political standing.
That's why it's not comparable.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
To compare a terrorist killing a guard at a synagogue with the hundreds killed, thousands arrested and numerous buildings destroyed in Kristallnacht is rhetorical excess.
Well, consider this summary from The Guardian back in August
In the space of just one week last month, according to Crif, the umbrella group for France's Jewish organisations, eight synagogues were attacked. One, in the Paris suburb of Sarcelles, was firebombed by a 400-strong mob. A kosher supermarket and pharmacy were smashed and looted; the crowd's chants and banners included "Death to Jews" and "Slit Jews' throats". That same weekend, in the Barbes neighbourhood of the capital, stone-throwing protesters burned Israeli flags: "Israhell", read one banner.
In Germany last month, molotov cocktails were lobbed into the Bergische synagogue in Wuppertal – previously destroyed on Kristallnacht – and a Berlin imam, Abu Bilal Ismail, called on Allah to "destroy the Zionist Jews … Count them and kill them, to the very last one." Bottles were thrown through the window of an antisemitism campaigner in Frankfurt; an elderly Jewish man was beaten up at a pro-Israel rally in Hamburg; an Orthodox Jewish teenager punched in the face in Berlin. In several cities, chants at pro-Palestinian protests compared Israel's actions to the Holocaust; other notable slogans included: "Jew, coward pig, come out and fight alone," and "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."
It seems more than vaguely reminiscent. There have been warnings to Jews not to identify themselves as such in public.
I agree this is not state sponsored. I'm assuming there are actually legal protections in place for the Jewish population that are not working to mitigate the violence. This is a new form of Kristallnacht, that is the 2.0; and it is within living memory of the 1.0 version.
quote:
That's why there's also a significant reverse flow of Israelis seek European Citizenship
That article seems to re-affirm there is a significant outflow from Europe and not much return traffic. It does seem to state a number of people are interested in keeping their options open by seeking a European passport.
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I don't think most British Jews have much intention of going anywhere. Places where anti-Semitism is a bit more mainstream? Maybe.
How much would it take to tip that intention? According to the Guardian as of last week as noted here Antisemitic attacks in the UK are at an all time high (the span of how long such attacks have been recorded is not noted, but I would assume is a modern statistic).
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Let me spell this out: Kristallnacht, and the events preceding it, were orchestrated by a fascist government whose rise to power rested on an appeal to the prejudices of the majority.
My point is wider. Kristallnacht was not just part of the policy of a particular government, but was in a real sense the expression of a European wide cultural antisemitism. This antisemitism expressed itself in violence by states, violence tacitly accepted by states, and violence in places such as England whose state was not formally opposed to Jews. The 'events preceding Kristallnacht' are not just the earlier violence of the Nazis but the cultural millieu that the Nazis worked within.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
BS. My father lived in the Tiergarten (Berlin) during the period in question. No one is coming the houses with soldiers and chucking them into the street and into trucks or frog marching them down the street. Hitting them in the head with rifle butts. Taking their houses and contents. Not letting them work. Declaring them noncitizens.
It is irresponsible to make the comparison. The current violence in Europe and also in Canada is a rare few people identifying with a cause they have no actual contact or stake in, and may have no real understanding of its roots. We might more profitably discuss how it is that they are alienated from their own countries and societies, and our countries' alienating, greedy and much more violent foreign policies.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
Let me quote myself, because it seems people are confusing my argument with someone else's:
quote:
Maybe not Kristallnacht, but certainly reminiscent of the violence against Jews preceding it.
In the last couple of months, in separate incidents, five Jews have been murdered simply and solely for being Jewish. Four for shopping in a kosher grocery store in Paris and one for being volunteer security at a bar mitzva in Copenhagen. Other posters have pointed out other worrying antisemitic acts recently committed in Europe.
This is, clearly, not directed by or encouraged by any European government. As such Kristallnacht itself is maybe not a great analogy. But I think it reasonable to compare it with the atmosphere of violence and intimidation which Jews in Europe in the lead up to Kristallnacht had to face.
Hopefully as you suggest this violence and intimidation is the work of a small number of people who are not representative of the vast majority of European citizens and as such this spate of violence will not escalate as it did in Germany. Hopefully also the residual antisemitism in European culture will not prevent that vast peaceful majority from actively protecting, supporting and encouraging European Jews to live their lives and their faith freely and openly without discrimination or fear.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Denmark is the last country in Europe where an anti-Semitic attitude would ever be acceptable.
And frankly, I don't think Netanyahu is doing any favours when suggesting that people should leave a country that Israel has especially honoured for the very special effort the Danes made to save its Jewish residents from the Holocaust.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Denmark is the last country in Europe where an anti-Semitic attitude would ever be acceptable
Good. Hopefully that will mean that all possible efforts will be made to make Denmark's Jews feel (and be!) safe and welcome.
quote:
And frankly, I don't think Netanyahu is doing any favours when suggesting that people should leave a country that Israel has especially honoured for the very special effort the Danes made to save its Jewish residents from the Holocaust.
Things change. As evidenced by the dead Jew.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
No, NOT as evidenced by the dead Jew. What kind of reasoning takes the actions of a single gangster as speaking for an entire nation? That is exactly like taking the few Danes who collaborated with the Nazis and treating them as representative, ignoring how a vast network of ordinary Danes did the exact opposite.
As well as "the dead Jew", two policemen were shot at the synagogue. They were there precisely because the Jewish community asked for help AND THE GOVERNMENT GAVE IT TO THEM. Seriously, the entire point is that it was one dead security guard instead of an entire dead bar mitzvah.
[ 16. February 2015, 02:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Hopefully as you suggest this violence and intimidation is the work of a small number of people who are not representative of the vast majority of European citizens and as such this spate of violence will not escalate as it did in Germany.
As several people have already pointed out, this violence and intimidation is the work of a small number of angry extremist Muslims. Their particular hate for Jews has roots in the Israeli-Arab conflict, and the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine.
There are certainly (a small number of) Nazis and similar racist groups all over Europe, but they aren't going to find common cause with Muslim extremists - the racists probably hate Muslims more than they hate Jews.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
orfeo: The dead Jew is evidence that Denmark is not as safe for Jews as it was. It is evidence that there are people in Denmark who seek to inflict violence on Jews because they are Jews. It is evidence that a Jew can die, just for being a Jew.
Where in my posts have I 'taken the actions of a single gangster as speaking for an entire nation?' On the contrary I have explicitly spoken about the 'vast peaceful majority.' You are not arguing against what I am saying but against someone else...
Leorning Cniht: I'm not really so concerned about an overtly antisemitic government coming into power and reenacting Kristallnacht (though the electoral success of the Le Pen isn't exactly reassuring) as I am about a European populace in which latent antisemitism encourages them to throw European Jews under the bus for the sake of a quiet life.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
That's why there's also a significant reverse flow of Israelis seek European Citizenship
That article seems to re-affirm there is a significant outflow from Europe and not much return traffic. It does seem to state a number of people are interested in keeping their options open by seeking a European passport.
It cites the Newsweek article about Jews seeking to leave Europe and contrasts it with Israelis who are looking to get European citizenship.
quote:
Israelis look to Europe with hope, not despair, especially at a time of war. Ashkenazi Jews, or Jews of Eastern European origin, seek ways to obtain citizenship in Poland, Hungary and Germany, while Mizrahi Jews, or Jews of Middle Eastern origin, seek Spanish or French citizenship.
quote:
“There is definitely an increase in the number of applicants in the last month. There’s always an increase in the number of applications at times of crisis,” says attorney Dan Assan, who specializes in obtaining German and Austrian citizenship for Israeli residents. “While the increase right now isn’t dramatic, we’re talking about an increase of several dozen percentages, but this is the immediate effect of war. The decision to emigrate from the country and to start a complicated process of obtaining foreign citizenship is long and complex. It could be that we will see the real impact of the war in Gaza on Israeli migration to Europe only a long time from now.”
quote:
Attorney Julie Daniel, who deals with acquiring French citizenship, claims that applications for foreign citizenship have been rising steadily and continuously, not just in a time of war. She says, “In the last month I heard from 46 families, most of them from southern Israel, of Tunisian or Algerian background. Each family consists of around 20 people.” Last year, she says, she renewed citizenship for about a hundred Israeli families.
The article does say that some of this is people looking to have a security option if things go sour. But that works in both directions. Some of those contemplating emigrating from Europe are looking for a safety hatch and aren't actually planning to leave.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
orfeo: The dead Jew is evidence that Denmark is not as safe for Jews as it was. It is evidence that there are people in Denmark who seek to inflict violence on Jews because they are Jews. It is evidence that a Jew can die, just for being a Jew.
Where in my posts have I 'taken the actions of a single gangster as speaking for an entire nation?' On the contrary I have explicitly spoken about the 'vast peaceful majority.' You are not arguing against what I am saying but against someone else...
Leorning Cniht: I'm not really so concerned about an overtly antisemitic government coming into power and reenacting Kristallnacht (though the electoral success of the Le Pen isn't exactly reassuring) as I am about a European populace in which latent antisemitism encourages them to throw European Jews under the bus for the sake of a quiet life.
And the dead Jews in Israel speak to the fact that it's not safe there for Jews either. If you're looking for total safety it's not safe anywhere for anybody.
When you compare the actions of a single criminal to Kristalnacht, you are implying that the actions of a single terrorist are equivalent to the anti-Semitic actions of a nation. Hedging to say "well maybe not Kristallnacht but the acts leading up to it" is still inappropriate and disrespectful. It likes saying that when someone hits a Christian it's like Crucifixion 2.0.
As for your worry about the people of Europe tolerating active anti-Semitism for a quiet life, that seems unlikely. Witness the French reaction to the supermarket killings and the magazine killings.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
And the dead Jews in Israel speak to the fact that it's not safe there for Jews either. If you're looking for total safety it's not safe anywhere for anybody.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
When you compare the actions of a single criminal to Kristalnacht, you are implying that the actions of a single terrorist are equivalent to the anti-Semitic actions of a nation.
I am not comparing the actions of a single criminal to Kristallnacht. I am comparing a repeated series of violence and intimidatory acts against Jews, across Europe, to a recent historical period in which there were a repeated series of violence and intimidatory acts against Jews.
quote:
Hedging to say "well maybe not Kristallnacht but the acts leading up to it" is still inappropriate and disrespectful. It likes saying that when someone hits a Christian it's like Crucifixion 2.0.
Rubbish. That's not hedging but drawing a real and clear distinction.
quote:
As for your worry about the people of Europe tolerating active anti-Semitism for a quiet life, that seems unlikely.
I really hope so.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
orfeo: The dead Jew is evidence that Denmark is not as safe for Jews as it was.
As it was when? When exactly was this golden age when there wasn't a single person out there looking to cause trouble for Jews just for being Jewish?
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
orfeo: The dead Jew is evidence that Denmark is not as safe for Jews as it was.
As it was when? When exactly was this golden age when there wasn't a single person out there looking to cause trouble for Jews just for being Jewish?
When did I ever say there was a "golden age where there wasn't a single person out there looking to cause trouble for Jews just for being Jewish"?
I don't understand why you are consistently taking my posts to extremes I have never argued and then responding to the strawmen you have created out of them.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You are taking the death of one Jewish person of evidence that things are worse. The only possible better situation is a time when no Jewish person could die for being Jewish.
It is you, I think, creating a straw man.
[ 16. February 2015, 05:06: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You are taking the death of one Jewish person of evidence that things are worse. The only possible better situation is a time when no Jewish person could die for being Jewish.
What is your point? I'm sure you aren't arguing that this most recent murder is just business as usual for Jews in Denmark. Are you arguing that it isn't indicative of anything, just a random meaningless act that could have happened at any time in the last few decades in Denmark?
There are widespread reports of a recent rise in antisemitic acts for many European countries, including Denmark. For example, here is a Guardian article from before the recent shootings in Paris and Copenhagen.
I think that this most recent shooting is part of a general climate of rising antisemitism in Europe. And that decent people like you and me who are against racism and bigotry should be mindful of this, and should bear in mind the European history of anti-Jewish discrimination and violence. And yes, I think that this spate of antisemitism is suggestive of, and can be compared with, the spate of antisemitism which formed the cultural milleu that Kristallnacht arose within. That historical comparison makes me even more keen not to minimise the scope of the problem, not to downplay or explain away violence and intimidation against Jews.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
Are you arguing that it isn't indicative of anything, just a random meaningless act that could have happened at any time in the last few decades in Denmark?
Pretty much, yes.
Why? Because one death is not a trend. A death has to occur sometime, logically, but how do you tell whether it's an 'increase' or just an isolated event?
The same logical problem presents itself with any one-off event. People could point to an exploding fireball over Russia and say "there's an increasing risk of exploding fireballs". Or the death of cricketer Phillip Hughes and declare "deaths in cricket matches are on the rise".
Now, if you want to talk about evidence of a rise in, say, the number of attacks on synagogues, I'm all ears, so long as your evidence of an increase is something more than the 'increase' from zero to one. There may well be an increase in attacks, but one attack that leaps into the headlines because it was fatal is not evidence of that by itself.
Don't give me media reports, give me figures. People's perception of media reporting is just that: perception. It is very well established, for example, that the general populace continues to perceive that crime is on the rise even when crime rates are actually falling, because the news reports crime and doesn't report absence of crime.
[ 16. February 2015, 06:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS I should acknowledge there are at least a few solid figures in the Guardian article.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I don't think most British Jews have much intention of going anywhere. Places where anti-Semitism is a bit more mainstream? Maybe.
Anti-Semitism does seem to be on the increase and the Paris attacks have rattled some people. You'll find some statistics here.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I don't think most British Jews have much intention of going anywhere. Places where anti-Semitism is a bit more mainstream? Maybe.
Anti-Semitism does seem to be on the increase and the Paris attacks have rattled some people. You'll find some statistics here.
Most of the Jews I know are more at risk for their political activism (via Red Watch and the like) than they are from any recent increase in anti-Semitism.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
The fact that antisemitic violence is on the up is not the point - violence against any group that has religious/political connections in the middle east is on the up... This (at least in western europe) is not Krystallnacht - this is a very small number of people, not a mainstream political movement. Jews leaving western europe for israel on the basis of this are imo losing a sense of proportion.
I was reading a "life of mohammed" yesterday, and it would seem that he spoke for religious tolerance, kind treatment of all people, and was completely against the kind of violence we see from so-called "islamic" terror groups. They're only islamic in the same sense that the klu klux klan are christian.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Denmark is the last country in Europe where an anti-Semitic attitude would ever be acceptable.
Sadly I'm not sure this really represents the truth. There are various sections of various northern European societies where closet (and not-so-closet) neo-Nazis hide behind the protection of free-speech. So to suggest that Denmark is somehow immune from the acceptable face of anti-Semitism is to avoid looking at a real problem.
quote:
And frankly, I don't think Netanyahu is doing any favours when suggesting that people should leave a country that Israel has especially honoured for the very special effort the Danes made to save its Jewish residents from the Holocaust.
I'm not sure this works - because Europe is a different place in the 21 century to the middle of the 20 century. Denmark is a different country.
On the general topic, I think that Jews frequently feel under attack in Europe, and events in France and now Denmark do nothing to make Jews feel less under pressure. There is a constant low-level aggression going on, including attacks on synagogues, desecration of graves and so on.
Whilst the reality might be that an individual Jew is unlikely to be personally attacked, given that they are a fairly small community it sure feels like a pattern of intimidation. I can understand anyone who is reading the tealeaves and deciding to get out to safety in Israel.
That said, Netanyahu is a dangerous politician playing to the worst elements of his home audience and I think it is in his interest to ramp up the fear-mongering.
And, in case of any doubt: Islamophobia is a real thing which is also widespread in Europe, with very different types of outcomes than anti-Semitism. I do not believe they are equivalent. I also am not a supporter of the State of Israel as a thing or the occupation of the oPT.
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arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Well, consider this summary from The Guardian back in August
In the space of just one week last month, according to Crif, the umbrella group for France's Jewish organisations, eight synagogues were attacked. One, in the Paris suburb of Sarcelles, was firebombed by a 400-strong mob. A kosher supermarket and pharmacy were smashed and looted; the crowd's chants and banners included "Death to Jews" and "Slit Jews' throats". That same weekend, in the Barbes neighbourhood of the capital, stone-throwing protesters burned Israeli flags: "Israhell", read one banner.
In Germany last month, molotov cocktails were lobbed into the Bergische synagogue in Wuppertal – previously destroyed on Kristallnacht – and a Berlin imam, Abu Bilal Ismail, called on Allah to "destroy the Zionist Jews … Count them and kill them, to the very last one." Bottles were thrown through the window of an antisemitism campaigner in Frankfurt; an elderly Jewish man was beaten up at a pro-Israel rally in Hamburg; an Orthodox Jewish teenager punched in the face in Berlin. In several cities, chants at pro-Palestinian protests compared Israel's actions to the Holocaust; other notable slogans included: "Jew, coward pig, come out and fight alone," and "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas."
It seems more than vaguely reminiscent. There have been warnings to Jews not to identify themselves as such in public.
I agree this is not state sponsored. I'm assuming there are actually legal protections in place for the Jewish population that are not working to mitigate the violence. This is a new form of Kristallnacht, that is the 2.0; and it is within living memory of the 1.0 version.
The key question here is who is doing the demonstrating and what is the official reaction.
If these are the actions of one resentful foreign minority against another threatened minority, then this equation is invalid. Even adding your 2.0 does not make it more so.
Where it would become reminiscent would be if indigenous citizens of France or Germany were taking part in this, and did not feel any shame in doing so. Or if the police were standing by and letting violence happen.
This is also, incidentally, why, if this is true, it is more disturbing that pro-Palestinian demonstrators were shouting these sort of slogans. Then it does become very important to know whether they were German demonstrators or Middle Eastern ones.
I've commented earlier on other threads that there is a worrying strain of antisemitism about the way many Caucasian westerners' engage with the Palestinian cause. One gets an uncomfortable feeling that for some of them it is a convenient way to disengage their inhibitions against being antisemitic.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
"Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, both from neo-Nazis and Islamist extremists" is different from "anti-semitism in Europe is a sign of increasing state fascism, and Jews should flee to Israel".
Different, in that the former is true and worrying, and the second is bullshit.
Not that states in Europe aren't becoming more right-wing. There's a clear argument that they are. But the Islamist extremists (though vile in their own right) are the convenient fall guy for this, not its architects.
t
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Little devil
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
And Israel may not be the safest place to go, but at least emmigrating Jews can be assured that their fellow Israeli citizens are in it with them for the long haul and won't be tempted to throw them under a bus for the sake of community relations.
If recent trends are any guide, the community most likely to be 'thrown under the bus' for the quiet life is the Muslim community.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
"Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, both from neo-Nazis and Islamist extremists" is different from "anti-semitism in Europe is a sign of increasing state fascism, and Jews should flee to Israel".
Different, in that the former is true and worrying, and the second is bullshit.
Hmm. I'm not sure it is quite so simple to shrug off the idea of increasing state fascism in Europe. I guess the question here is quite how state fascism would look (particularly in some of the Eastern European states) if it is something more than currently exists.
Or maybe - if it is possible to define fascism as a road, it certainly appears that some states are heading towards it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Demas:
And Israel may not be the safest place to go, but at least emmigrating Jews can be assured that their fellow Israeli citizens are in it with them for the long haul and won't be tempted to throw them under a bus for the sake of community relations.
If recent trends are any guide, the community most likely to be 'thrown under the bus' for the quiet life is the Muslim community.
Also this isn't really true - there are dramatic differences between life outcomes amongst different groups of Jewish immigrants in Israel. The idea that none of them would be quote/unquote thrown under a bus seems to not be borne out by the reality of life in Israel.
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arse
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
"Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe, both from neo-Nazis and Islamist extremists" is different from "anti-semitism in Europe is a sign of increasing state fascism, and Jews should flee to Israel".
Different, in that the former is true and worrying, and the second is bullshit.
Hmm. I'm not sure it is quite so simple to shrug off the idea of increasing state fascism in Europe. I guess the question here is quite how state fascism would look (particularly in some of the Eastern European states) if it is something more than currently exists.
Or maybe - if it is possible to define fascism as a road, it certainly appears that some states are heading towards it.
How?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
How what?
Election of some fascist and neo-nazi parties in some European states?
The fact that even some 'cuddly' new political parties like the Pirate Party are thoroughly infiltrated with Neo-Nazis?
And so on.
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arse
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
When I heard Netanyahu's offer, I didn't think of Kristallnacht (or even Germany); I just guessed that Netanyahu saw it as a chance to boost a pro-Israeli Jewish population to counter the rising Palestinian Muslim birth rate.
In much the same way that the Malay dominated Malaysian government uses Muslim immigration for the Islamisation of previously Christian or Shaman dominated regions of the federation.
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QUIZ: Bible
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Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
How what?
Election of some fascist and neo-nazi parties in some European states?
The fact that even some 'cuddly' new political parties like the Pirate Party are thoroughly infiltrated with Neo-Nazis?
And so on.
I think it might be more correct to say that there is growing trend towards nationalism in Europe, which is not an altogether bad in my opinion. To equate that with fascism is a mistake, if you ask me.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
The attacks in Paris and Copenhagen were committed by Islamist extremists. How well do you think Islamist extremists will fare if neo-fascists actually gain meaningful power in European governments?
Two things can be dangerous - even specifically dangerous to one group eg Jews - without being in any sense allied.
t
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Little devil
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There have always existed neo-nazi groups on the fringes. I'm not convinced they're anymore popular today than they were, say, twenty years ago.
In one sense, you're right. The extremist groups (in the UK, something like the National Front) are no more popular than 20 years ago.
On the other hand, there are newer political groups that have attracted considerable support with similar policies packaged in a way that has more electoral support - eg: by emphasis on changing the law rather than sending round the thugs. It seems to me that the BNP are not really that different to the NF. And, UKIP policies are also not too far removed from the far right extremist groups (and, it wouldn't surprise me if there were links between prominent UKIP members and the extreme right thugs in the NF and similar).
[x-post with Teufelchen]
[ 16. February 2015, 09:43: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Martyn Heale, the senior UKIP organiser, was previously in the National Front.
According to some statements recently he recently gave to a writer for the London Review of Books, he thinks the NF was a 'social club'.
Make of that what you will.
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arse
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well, I guess that's just your opinion. For many others, these are clearly neo-nazi fascist parties:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27353281
https://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123279
http://theconversation.com/creeping-towards-fascism-croatia-tests-european-ideals-21266
x-post in reply to Ad
There have always existed neo-nazi groups on the fringes. I'm not convinced they're anymore popular today than they were, say, twenty years ago.
So who, exactly, are these non-fascist nationalists whose rise you think is a good thing? Because if it's UKIP and Alternativ für Deutschland, they're both pretty strongly infested with fascists of various types.
t
For instance in Finland we have Perussuomalaiset, which is the third largest party in parliament. Economically left, in favour of a strong welfare state, socially conservative, Eurosceptic and critical globalisation I have in good conscience voted for them and will do again.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
For instance in Finland we have Perussuomalaiset, which is the third largest party in parliament. Economically left, in favour of a strong welfare state, socially conservative, Eurosceptic and critical globalisation I have in good conscience voted for them and will do again.
Ah, the 'True Finns'. Not an ominous name or anything. Quoth Wikipedia:
quote:
In December 2011, an opinion poll revealed 51% of True Finn voters agreed with the statement, "People of certain races are unsuited for life in a modern society."
I'll pass, thanks.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There have always existed neo-nazi groups on the fringes. I'm not convinced they're anymore popular today than they were, say, twenty years ago.
Pegida? They seem to have attracted considerable interest and support in some parts, in a way I definitely don’t remember seeing 20 years ago. In fact, they’re now thinking about opening branches in Spain and Austria.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Martyn Heale, the senior UKIP organiser, was previously in the National Front.
According to some statements recently he recently gave to a writer for the London Review of Books, he thinks the NF was a 'social club'. ...
A social club for the sort of people one would not want to meet.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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