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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Loneliness
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
In my job as a care worker I meet quite a number of people (mainly elderly, though not exclusively so) who are isolated, and who spend most of their day alone. This is true even for people with family near by. But at least those people are visited by care workers (operating within a scheme subject to a tight budget), if they have some clearly defined and diagnosed disability or dementia.
But this indicates to me that there must exist an epidemic of loneliness in our society (I am speaking of the UK, of course). What about those who have no visitors at all for days, weeks, months and perhaps years on end?
What can the church do about this? Anything?
Any ideas? Any examples of action by your churches?
Perhaps some churches' obsession with membership, commitment and "decisions for Christ" has prevented the kind of committed social action that seeks people out for support and friendship, for absolutely no other reason and agenda than the fact that God loves them.
And for those who are not Christians... what do you think secular society should do about this?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Are we talking about people who are capable of getting out and about, or people who are effectively bedridden? There are all sorts of clubs and groups for the elderly and often transport to get them there - probably the key thing here is to find a way of matching the people to the activities available and getting them there. For example, my town has a day centre and a minibus which will go round and pick people up. There is a choice of activities at the day centre, plus a plethora of other groups meeting at various halls around the town. There really is no excuse for a reasonably mobile person to stay at home saying they're lonely.
However, if you are talking about those who, from extreme medical illness, cannot get out, then we have a pastoral care team who visit them (over a hundred people at last time of asking). Social services should be made aware of others not in contact with the church - an appeal was put out recently for befrienders to 'adopt' someone and visit them. (However, you have to be sensitive to different personalities - a friend's mother apparently was sent a befriender and she didn't want one.)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
Thismay be of interest. Simply being able to get out of one's home does not of itself mean one can engage in meaningful relationships within a community. Being bussed to day centres is simply not a solution for many, especially those in rural areas.
Mercifully this is an issue attracting increasing public interest - since we either get old or die. Telephone befriending is a further approach that, for a very small investment in time and cost, can deliver benefits of huge value to isolated people.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
If there is an epidemic of loneliness, I do not think it is confined to the UK, nor to the elderly, nor to the self-centered. I think it is important to distinguish between being alone and being lonely, but they are often found together. It is a mistake, though, to suppose that what a lonely person needs is company; that may make him (or her) lonelier. Often it is nearly enough simply to know that someone else cares.
Pardon me for the disjointed nature of my comments.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I do know a certain vicar who said right from the beginning of his incumbancy that he wasn't interested in visiting the elderly and infirm - he was only concerned with spreading the Gospel amongst young people. Well...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
...which brings me to the point that (as far as the Church is concerned) care for the elderly and lonely should begin with a visit from the vicar or Priest - and that includes those who aren't religious. I'm disgusted by the ageism in some evangelical churches - it is all very well wanting to reach out to the young, but what sort of example do they set?
[ 16. May 2012, 20:49: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...which brings me to the point that (as far as the Church is concerned) care for the elderly and lonely should begin with a visit from the vicar or Priest - and that includes those who aren't religious. I'm disgusted by the ageism in some evangelical churches - it is all very well wanting to reach out to the young, but what sort of example do they set?
Whilst it's clearly important to seek to win rising generations for Christ, we must take full cognisance of the fact that existing generations will be around for quite some time yet. Not only does life expectancy continue to rise, but the numbers of people in older cohorts continues to rise proportionately to society as a whole. By 2030 around a third of the workforce - and almost half the adult population - will be aged over 50. This is a mission field we cannot ignore.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I'm a hospital chaplain and I'm afraid one of the commonest stories I hear from older patients goes something like:
"I've been going to church all my life. When I got ill, someone from church used to come and see me every week for the first few weeks. Then it tailed off, and nobody's visited me for several months now."
Hearing stories like that - over and over again - has made me somewhat passionate about the Church's care of the old, the dependent, and the lonely. Especially - selfishly - because that's probably going to be me one day, and I don't like to think how bitter I'll feel to know that the Church has got bored with having me as a member, and decided to spend its time on a younger model.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I do know a certain vicar who said right from the beginning of his incumbancy that he wasn't interested in visiting the elderly and infirm - he was only concerned with spreading the Gospel amongst young people. Well...
Methodists place a high priority on the pastoral care of elderly members. Ministers visit sick members, but there are also designated pastoral visitors whose job it is to keep in contact with the housebound and people in hospital, etc. The practical idea of 'membership' probably makes this kind of relationship easier to maintain. The CofE doesn't really have this concept, and it must be difficult to keep track of people who fade from view without some kind of framework for doing so.
It's difficult for individual churches to do everything well. Some churches are strong at offering pastoral care to the elderly, and some are involved in excellent youth work. In modern Britain, most churches are fairly small, resources stretched and expertise is limited. Even the CofE, which likes to see itself as 'the church for the whole community', doesn't always have the skills or the means to offer the right help to everyone.
In terms of your 'certain vicar', it seems as though his church's pastoral work with the elderly will need to be developed by lay workers from the congregation, leaving him to devote most of his energies to the areas where he thinks his gifts lie. (I'm presuming that he does think there's an important place for pastoral work with the elderly.) Sadly, congregations often think that the vicar should be leading everything. But that's not helpful. If the clergy are stretched too thin then they're going to be ineffective at almost everything they do. Everyone has to play their part.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eleanor Jane
Shipmate
# 13102
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...which brings me to the point that (as far as the Church is concerned) care for the elderly and lonely should begin with a visit from the vicar or Priest - and that includes those who aren't religious. I'm disgusted by the ageism in some evangelical churches - it is all very well wanting to reach out to the young, but what sort of example do they set?
So true! Witnessed recently with my Grandmother-in-law. Never goes to church but expects the Vicar to visit 'cos she's (the Vicar is) local. My Grandfather-in-law just died... G-i-l complained about how long the Vicar stayed drinking tea and eating biscuits but obviously loved every minute of it - especially feeling important enough to be visited.
In a wider sense, there is certainly a worldwide (or at least developed world-wide) epidemic of loneliness, particularly among older people and the effect can be seriously debilitating or even lead to death. I'm not an expert on the best things to do about it, but I'm keen on (where possible) programmes that empower and enable older people to build social networks, rather than having ongoing one-to-one input. I'm sure it's a very complex issue and lots of flexible solutions are needed.
Trying not to patronise older people would be a good start, IMHO. (My church in NZ ran a social group but it was advertised for 60+ (not very old!!) and they seriously did things like basket weaving and collage with macaroni and gold paint. If I had any marbles at all in my old age, I'd rather poke my eye out than go and be patronised by well meaning folks only a few years younger than myself (the organiser was in her 50s)!
Suitable volunteering oportunities are a great way for people to feel useful and valued as well as socialising while they're at it. I read of a rest home that worked with a local charity to give residents (who were quite infirm) some simple admin to do. The residents loved feeling useful and having something to do together.
Posts: 556 | From: Now in the UK! | Registered: Oct 2007
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...which brings me to the point that (as far as the Church is concerned) care for the elderly and lonely should begin with a visit from the vicar or Priest - and that includes those who aren't religious. I'm disgusted by the ageism in some evangelical churches - it is all very well wanting to reach out to the young, but what sort of example do they set?
I agree that your 'certain vicar' is out of order if he did dismiss one group of his flock. On the other hand if it was part of publically acknowledging his strengths and weaknesses???
But as a minister the idea that I should personally manage to visit everyone in my church - and those in need beyond the church - presumes a very limited congregation and community size. I struggle like most clergy with the guilt of the visit missed, but we only have a certain number of hours and days - and sermon prep, lunch clubs, building management all have to be fitted it not to mention the call to mission...
Even as far back as the early chapters of Acts the church decided that the job of caring was to be shared out across the believers and appointed the seven (inc Steven)
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Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
"I've been going to church all my life. When I got ill, someone from church used to come and see me every week for the first few weeks. Then it tailed off, and nobody's visited me for several months now."
Churches, generally speaking, seem to be really, really bad at providing long-term support of any sort. Many are very good, indeed, at providing a few meals, some help with the housework, when a baby is born or someone is hospitalized. But if longer-term help or care is needed, it just doesn't seem to happen.
The elderly, the chronically ill, parents of seriously disabled children ... it seems to me that most churches don't do nearly enough to share their burdens, or to maintain the relationships. It strikes me that, at the Last Judgment, this is something for which we will all have to give account. When our Lord talked about the lost sheep, he was talking about the sheep that are already part of the flock. We let the sheep wander off without much thought ....
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I think we're mistaken to implicitly assume as seems to be the case here that the only lonely people out there are elderly. The problem is much more complex than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Mercifully this is an issue attracting increasing public interest - since we either get old or die. Telephone befriending is a further approach that, for a very small investment in time and cost, can deliver benefits of huge value to isolated people.
I've shared this before, so feel free to skip on past if you've heard this already, but this was an important ministry for my father. Dad was a prominent "type-A" business man-- always busy, always productive. But a series of serious heart attacks left him completely bedridden & housebound by his early 60s. I believe that is the time he found his true vocation. Unable to work, to go to meetings, to help with building projects or fund-raising drive, he took on a ministry much like the one described above.
Each morning my mom would bring him breakfast, the telephone and the list his church had provided of lonely people they were aware of. Some were bedridden like him. Some were challenged either intellectually or physically. Some were just more relationally challenged-- quirky oddballs who had good hearts but didn't really "fit in" anywhere.
He would spend his entire day on the phone, calling his little flock, checking in, seeing how they were doing, praying with them over the phone, but mostly just talking and listening. Sometimes they would have a particular need like a ride to the doctor, so he would then work the phones trying to line that up for them.
The sometimes awkward testimonies of these odd, quirky people at his memorial was, I believe, far more impactful than the more polished speeches of the Important Business People who attended.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
The comments about telephone networking make me think that perhaps successive generations will have the intrawebz to connect globally, so elder loneliness might not be so common in future. As we know on the Ship, online friendships can lead to meatspace friendships.
I do wonder if part of the limited support from churches is partly from not wanting to invade people's privacy or feeling a forced intimacy born of necessity or worry that there will be increasing demands, etc. Or worse: I think we've talked about gossip masquerading as prayer requests. Confidentiality and specificity might make matching needs with helpers more comfortable for everyone. OliviaG
PS And I can't say this any other way: turn the fucking TV off. It dissolves brains and cripples bodies.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
...The elderly, the chronically ill, parents of seriously disabled children ... it seems to me that most churches don't do nearly enough to share their burdens, or to maintain the relationships. It strikes me that, at the Last Judgment, this is something for which we will all have to give account. When our Lord talked about the lost sheep, he was talking about the sheep that are already part of the flock. We let the sheep wander off without much thought ....
Very true - this should be framed! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
[ 17. May 2012, 05:59: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I think we're mistaken to implicitly assume as seems to be the case here that the only lonely people out there are elderly. The problem is much more complex than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Mercifully this is an issue attracting increasing public interest - since we either get old or die. Telephone befriending is a further approach that, for a very small investment in time and cost, can deliver benefits of huge value to isolated people.
I've shared this before, so feel free to skip on past if you've heard this already, but this was an important ministry for my father. Dad was a prominent "type-A" business man-- always busy, always productive. But a series of serious heart attacks left him completely bedridden & housebound by his early 60s. I believe that is the time he found his true vocation. Unable to work, to go to meetings, to help with building projects or fund-raising drive, he took on a ministry much like the one described above.
Each morning my mom would bring him breakfast, the telephone and the list his church had provided of lonely people they were aware of. Some were bedridden like him. Some were challenged either intellectually or physically. Some were just more relationally challenged-- quirky oddballs who had good hearts but didn't really "fit in" anywhere.
He would spend his entire day on the phone, calling his little flock, checking in, seeing how they were doing, praying with them over the phone, but mostly just talking and listening. Sometimes they would have a particular need like a ride to the doctor, so he would then work the phones trying to line that up for them.
The sometimes awkward testimonies of these odd, quirky people at his memorial was, I believe, far more impactful than the more polished speeches of the Important Business People who attended.
Hats off to your father. It sounds like he was something of an entrepreneur in business when he was well, but continued to use his skills in a more sympathetic way after life had to change for him. It takes a special sort of person to engineer something like this of course, but such people are invaluable in the Church! I hope his ideas continued to be acted upon after he departed this life.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Do ministers visit any more?
My Dad was a minister and used to spend every afternoon visiting.
Our Church has a large network of pastoral visitors, each having three people on their list. They pop round regularly and also give lifts to Church etc.
We have a luncheon club every month - for all ages. On Christmas day we have a Christmas lunch and party - all who would otherwise be on their own are invited. Social services and meals-on-wheels also give us names. We deliver 40+ Christmas meals to the housebound too. A lot of people who live alone help to cook, give lifts etc.
(The whole thing is a huge operation. I know, I used to be the administrator, I'm just the spud basher now :0)
[ 17. May 2012, 07:52: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I do know a certain vicar who said right from the beginning of his incumbancy that he wasn't interested in visiting the elderly and infirm - he was only concerned with spreading the Gospel amongst young people. Well...
People who are truly interested in spreading the Gospel wouldn't say this - they'd realise that they need to urgently contact the elderly as they don't have much time left.... (Whether the elderly would wish to be bombarded by someone so enthusiastically after their souls, though, is another matter.)
There's a news item on the BBC website at the moment about Retirement Villages. People often throw up their hands in horror at the thought of such complexes, but if you read through what they do and how they live, it sounds very much to me like returning to a long, leisurely time as a student. Sign me up!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There's a news item on the BBC website at the moment about Retirement Villages. People often throw up their hands in horror at the thought of such complexes, but if you read through what they do and how they live, it sounds very much to me like returning to a long, leisurely time as a student. Sign me up!
You don't have to live in a retirement village to enjoy programs of that type. In my town we have a Senior Center which organizes classes and trips. Several times a year we have a seven-week-long 'Shakespeare for Retirees' class which I enjoy very much. All the participants have a lifetime of knowing different people and experiencing different things. When we discuss the characters or actions in a play, someone will tell something from his own experience that helps us understand. The woman who first taught the class said that when she got her PhD in her late twenties, she was really too young to understand Shakespeare.
Yesterday I went on a trip to Princeton, West Virginia where we visited a railroad museum and a Civil War battlefield. I enjoyed these things and I also enjoyed the company of the other people. However, I would hate to live in a place where everyone is the same age. I like variety.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
The elderly, the chronically ill, parents of seriously disabled children ... it seems to me that most churches don't do nearly enough to share their burdens, or to maintain the relationships. It strikes me that, at the Last Judgment, this is something for which we will all have to give account. When our Lord talked about the lost sheep, he was talking about the sheep that are already part of the flock. We let the sheep wander off without much thought ....
This exactly reflects my own thinking on this subject. It's a problem for visitors, of course - sometimes (let's be honest) the people they're going to call on aren't easy characters. I'll admit that when I was in parish ministry, there were always a handful of visits I looked forward to with a sinking heart. But there's really no reason this kind of ministry can't be shared between a number of people.
Another problem, though, is that people who are lonely are often "invisible". In our culture, I think loneliness can be a very difficult thing to admit to. And often, someone who's active and has a number of superficial acquaintanceships with, say, workmates or Church friends, will often actually be very lonely when they're home alone.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eleanor Jane:
Trying not to patronise older people would be a good start, IMHO. (My church in NZ ran a social group but it was advertised for 60+ (not very old!!) and they seriously did things like basket weaving and collage with macaroni and gold paint. If I had any marbles at all in my old age, I'd rather poke my eye out than go and be patronised by well meaning folks only a few years younger than myself (the organiser was in her 50s)!
I do agree with this on the whole. But it's worth bearing in mind that many of these clubs cater for very elderly, too, who are not so nimble with fingers, coordination etc, and in fact there's something physically as well as mentally therapetuic in what seems to more able people relatively simple tasks.
My mother's a very capable early-70's kind of person who's not into creating Easter cards, or those sort of crafty things at all. When given such a task she slaps it all together as soon as possible! But she sees it as part of the wider experience of the club; as well as the comedy value (to her) of watching folks fighting over the glitter and bows!
More seriously, it seems that for some folks it does help to keep the stiffening fingers moving a bit and give some satisfaction.
I think it's the attitude of the leaders that probably matters more than the activity itself, for the most part.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If Methodist pastors do any visiting I don't know when, mornings are office hours, afternoons are for study and prayer and sermon writing (several Methodist clergy have told me Methodist preachers are supposed to spend 20 hours per week on sermon preparation.)
No one visited or telephoned my Mom from her Episcopal church after she moved into retirement home. She was welcomed whenever she could find a way there on her own.
I've never heard of a pastoral visiting team of non-clergy, unless you mean the monthly visit to the nursing home, nothing to at-home shut-ins.
But I think church architecture speaks of a long tradition of ignoring the elderly and disabled. At those stairs to get into the building, more stairs to get to the classrooms upstairs or in the basement. It has long been assumed church is for healthy people.
I think we (you and me, folks, no one else is going to do it) need to teach people how to form their own church network via email and phone, how to "do church" together without the presence of clergy, via conference call if not in person at nearby houses.
We have an example up-thread of a man who develop a telephone ministry; most of us are not entrepreneurs, but some might be able to follow a step by step "how to" plan, like people follow a plan and successfully run a franchise business even if they couldn't figure out how to start a business from scratch.
But as to "church of shut-ins via conference call or skype" I admit even at my age technology gets intimidating with the constant changes and the expensive subscription fees. The elderly in my family each at some point gave up on the computer, even though it was the link to pictures of the grandbabies and great grands, at some point one more technology glitch is too much to deal with.
And at some point the elderly gets moved 1000 miles away from her familiar church and businesses and neighbors to near her child so the child can help with care. It's hard for some of us introverts to make new friends, almost impossible for old folks thrown into a place where they know no-one and no longer have the energy and money to pursue their former interests. How do they even find out about other local shut-ins to telephone and start building acquaintance with?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
fyi: my dad wasn't an entrepreneur, he was a corporate drone back in the days (sigh) when just being fairly smart, hard working, and a good corporate team player meant getting promoted up the ranks of management.
Similarly, the ministry he had wasn't really all that daunting or complex in terms of organization. He simply looked at his circumstances (stuck in bed 24/7 with no prospect of that changing in the future) and asked himself how God could use him in that. Then really all he did was ask his pastor for the names and phone numbers of people who might appreciate some regular contact. It doesn't take a lot of business smarts to set up-- just a willing heart, and plenty of time on your hands.
The genius to me though is taking someone who we are all thinking of as the needy one-- the lonely, bedridden one that we need to come up with some program/plan/outreach ministry to, and instead making them the minister. It truly gave his last years significance & meaning & purpose. And causes us to rethink our presumptions about vocation and ministry.
[ 17. May 2012, 17:18: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
However, I would hate to live in a place where everyone is the same age. I like variety.
Moo
Yes, there is that, and I do agree with you. Even when I was a student, I sought out people of other ages to mix with as well. I guess they serve a purpose though for those who don't have the confidence or energy to get out and meet people through other means, as it's all on their doorstep.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Making a long-term, voluntary commitment to regular visits must be a difficult thing to do, both for church and secular groups.
I have a Methodist friend whose church has a team of people who visit those who have been absent for a while. She had been quite poorly and was at last recovering, but the woman who visited came in, sat down, started coughing and sighed about she'd had this bug that was going round and was not feeling well. My friend asked the woman to leave but the contact with this visitor set her back a couple of weeks. This is of course only one anecdote and by the sound of it, the church she attends are a lovely group of people, but it's something that needs to be considered.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I guess the question of whether it should be the minister / priest or someone else can be answered, at least in part, by whether the leader leads by example. He/she probably can't visit everyone, but if he does visit some and also has a support team who visit others, it comes across better than one who says 'That's not my calling - you do the visiting' as he/she heads off to do something else, either church-related or not. I understand at our place, the support team assess who particularly needs a priest eg. the dying, and who can manage with another church visitor.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If Methodist pastors do any visiting I don't know when, mornings are office hours, afternoons are for study and prayer and sermon writing (several Methodist clergy have told me Methodist preachers are supposed to spend 20 hours per week on sermon preparation.)
[...]
I've never heard of a pastoral visiting team of non-clergy, unless you mean the monthly visit to the nursing home, nothing to at-home shut-ins.
Maybe this is a difference between Methodism in America and in the UK. Before my British Methodist minister left to be stationed elsewhere he said that he thought the pastoral side of his work was even more important than what happens on Sundays! Clearly, no Methodist minister would ever say that in your environment. I'm sure that British Methodist ministers prepare very seriously for their sermons, but our membership is dominated by elderly people, so it would make no sense for British Methodism to ignore their pastoral needs.
Perhaps some denominations, both in the USA and the UK, take their elderly members for granted because they can get away with doing so. I.e., because younger people are relatively more numerous in such churches, the elderly and their needs are more easily sidelined.
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It has long been assumed church is for healthy people.
True. But perhaps in the past, the life of the church was probably about far more than going to church on Sunday. It permeated the community, so elderly people and children didn't need to 'go to church' because that communal spirituality was all around them.
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I think we (you and me, folks, no one else is going to do it) need to teach people how to form their own church network via email and phone, how to "do church" together without the presence of clergy, via conference call if not in person at nearby houses.
I think the stubborn idea that the clergy have to do everything, and that the sermon is the pinnacle of what they do, has been rather unhelpful, to say the least. It's probably contributed to the isolation that churchgoers often feel even when they are in church, let alone when they can no longer attend. It surely undermines the claim that 'church is family'!
I have many criticisms of British Methodism, but the recognition that the laity are important to the pastoral and spiritual ministry of the church is something of great value.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
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Originally posted by Moo:
However, I would hate to live in a place where everyone is the same age. I like variety.
Moo
Yes, there is that, and I do agree with you. Even when I was a student, I sought out people of other ages to mix with as well. I guess they serve a purpose though for those who don't have the confidence or energy to get out and meet people through other means, as it's all on their doorstep.
This reminds me of a church I know where the "young people" (includes ageing hippies) meet in the hall for a rowdy service, while the older people meet in the main Church for a more traditional service. Something tells me that's not quite right...
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
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# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I guess the question of whether it should be the minister / priest or someone else can be answered, at least in part, by whether the leader leads by example. He/she probably can't visit everyone, but if he does visit some and also has a support team who visit others, it comes across better than one who says 'That's not my calling - you do the visiting' as he/she heads off to do something else, either church-related or not. I understand at our place, the support team assess who particularly needs a priest eg. the dying, and who can manage with another church visitor.
Exactly! That's how it should be.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
However, I would hate to live in a place where everyone is the same age. I like variety.
Moo
Yes, there is that, and I do agree with you. Even when I was a student, I sought out people of other ages to mix with as well. I guess they serve a purpose though for those who don't have the confidence or energy to get out and meet people through other means, as it's all on their doorstep.
This reminds me of a church I know where the "young people" (includes ageing hippies) meet in the hall for a rowdy service, while the older people meet in the main Church for a more traditional service. Something tells me that's not quite right...
If the two groups see themselves as part of the same congregation, is that a problem? After all, noone seems to mind that Sunday school children go off to do their own thing, especially since they and the adults do come together at key points in order to 'share'.
Perhaps there's less loneliness in an environment where people are allowed to be themselves, not necessarily being expected to fit in with one, inflexible way of being church...?
What we have at the moment are churches that claim to be welcoming to everyone, while in reality, they send out coded messages that certain kinds of people will fit in and others won't. There's very little sense that anyone, clergy or lay, is brave enough to want to radically alter that state of affairs. It's so risky, isn't it?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
Because I'm a catastrophizer, I just thought of one more difficulty with arranging visits, particularly to anyone vulnerable to abuse: the person most willing to volunteer to visit might be the person that wants to write him/herself into a few wills or make off with the family silver. OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
This reminds me of a church I know where the "young people" (includes ageing hippies) meet in the hall for a rowdy service, while the older people meet in the main Church for a more traditional service. Something tells me that's not quite right...
As you include 'ageing hippies' I think it's not so clear-cut on age lines as you like to make out. Probably more like a personality divide. The quieter types at one service, the rowdier ones at the other. Personality differences can be seen in many different churches, for example those who prefer to attend a quiet, said service at 8pm. As regards loneliness, though, it's sometimes hard for people to fit into a large Sunday service, where there are 200 people to mix with. Much better to allow several smaller services or groups as well, where the timid person can make real friends with 6 or 7 people.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
Its all our concern. ANd I admit sick visiting is not my long suit.
But we need to have pastoral care programs with in the parish. Mine does thankfully.
Having said that I knew 2 people who had links to the church and no one visited them, even if the person was in the building. Very sad and as a result my mother had a clergyman provided by the funeral home do her service .
As to the vicar who onlys want out reach to the youth . I am appalled, and my parish had someone with that attitude , he did not last long.
And then you have clergy who seem to do a lot of funerals . Since begining of Lent my rector has had 10-12 funerals. That has to be depressing, especially if you are not a youngster yourself.
Just remember visitation is an all hands event. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
We had a minister who refused to visit people for fear of being put in compromising situations - I doubt if any of the little old ladies would have been capable of doing what he imagined, but he was unwilling to take the chance. Personally I felt that he was just lazy and using this as an excuse. With our new minister we now have pastoral care teams who take responsibility for member sof the congregation, informing the minister of any who need visits from him as it would be physically impossible for hime to visit all.
Sadly, loneliness can occur at any age, not just to the elderly. When I first moved to this city I had a 2 year old and a new baby, no family or friends here and knew nobody. My husband used our car for work and was away a lot. I was desperately lonely and couldn't even start with the neighbours as I found they were all Exclusive Brethren. I became a real shut in, watching daytime tv. Once we bought a second car my life started to change and I gradually began to go out and get to know people. This must be a story familiar to many which occurs daily in the suburbs. Our suburbs are very sterile places these days with few corner shops and community gathering places. Often there is no one to chat to over the back fence as everyone is out at work.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Dad was a prominent "type-A" business man-- always busy, always productive. But a series of serious heart attacks left him completely bedridden & housebound by his early 60s. I believe that is the time he found his true vocation. Unable to work, to go to meetings, to help with building projects or fund-raising drive, he took on a ministry much like the one described above.
Each morning my mom would bring him breakfast, the telephone and the list his church had provided of lonely people they were aware of. Some were bedridden like him. Some were challenged either intellectually or physically. Some were just more relationally challenged-- quirky oddballs who had good hearts but didn't really "fit in" anywhere.
He would spend his entire day on the phone, calling his little flock, checking in, seeing how they were doing, praying with them over the phone, but mostly just talking and listening. Sometimes they would have a particular need like a ride to the doctor, so he would then work the phones trying to line that up for them.
The sometimes awkward testimonies of these odd, quirky people at his memorial was, I believe, far more impactful than the more polished speeches of the Important Business People who attended.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
That is one of the best things I've ever read on the ship.
It is brilliant on so many levels. Not least in that it subverts our therapeutic culture which encourages us all to see ourselves as victims.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We had a minister who refused to visit people for fear of being put in compromising situations - I doubt if any of the little old ladies would have been capable of doing what he imagined, but he was unwilling to take the chance.
That's a very real issue and not something to dismiss by simply plunging the head into the sand or seeing it as a lame excuse. It only takes one false accusation or misunderstanding (possibly by a relative or carer) to permanently derail a minister's professional and personal life, even if it is not proven. If nobody (of the same sex as the person being visited) is willing to accompany him on personal visits then it's sadly a case of no visits.
I'm not sure that a total dependence on the minister doing visits is a sustainable form of pastoral care. I'm of the opinion that when a minister is on leave, there should only be a very small change in the amount of pastoral care going on, and that means a significant amount of the time a minister allots to pastoral care should be spent training and mentoring people identified as being gifted in that area, and then taking them
I'm also definitely of the opinion that having the minister visit is not a helpful way to address the problem of loneliness. A minister is not a friend, and simply visiting people could very well build up dangerous codependent relationships, which in turn could lead to false accusations or emotional/practical blackmail on the occasion that the minister is not able to be there or they say something a little challenging. Building real community is a better move in my opinion, but it's also the narrow road.
My current senior pastor (church of 1,400 spread across three distinct missional communities) does allot time in his schedule for pastoral care in amongst all the duties of leading such a large church with such a missional focus. When you have people going through tough times of various kinds (not just the elderly or sick) can never be predicted so it has to be flexible, but roughly half of his pastoral care time is spent meeting with people and the other half is spent training, mentoring and caring for those who lead the pastoral care ministries, making sure they aren't carrying too heavy a burden themselves.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
There is a distinction between being lonely and being alone.
In the latest newsletter from school, there's a note about a Yr 10 boy (i.e., 15 or 16) doing school-arranged work experience in a nursing home nearby. An elderly woman was in her last stages, and there was no family or friends present. At the request of the House Director, this boy spent 20 minutes or more with the woman. Before going to see her, he had picked some flowers, then sat, held her hand and talked to (not with) her until her very last moments when he summonsed medical assistance. Very brave of him and deserving of the recognition he received.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
Amazing story GeeD, kudos to school and the individual boy concerned.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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