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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why is higher education so expensive?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Over on the poverty thread a tangent started about the cost of higher education. It seemed to me that an equivocation was being made on the word "cost." There is the cost of obtaining an education -- aka the price -- and the cost of providing an education. I've seen lots of things in the nattersphere about the former, but very little about the latter.
I'm well aware that as state governments reduce the level of funding for higher education, the schools have raised tuition to balance the books. Have the costs of providing the education gone up so much more? I know that more and more classes are being taught by adjuncts, which is cheaper. On the other hand I also have been told that administrators are multiplying and their salaries are exponenting. Of course basic costs like supplies, power and utilities, are going up.
What else is going on there?
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm well aware that as state governments reduce the level of funding for higher education, the schools have raised tuition to balance the books. Have the costs of providing the education gone up so much more?
Here in the UK, we've lost almost all of our government funding, which is why fees have had to go up to £9k per year. And even with that rise a lot of universities will be struggling financially for the next few years.
quote:
I know that more and more classes are being taught by adjuncts, which is cheaper. On the other hand I also have been told that administrators are multiplying and their salaries are exponenting.
Oh, I wish administrator salaries were going up exponentially! We've had sub-1% rises the last two or three years, which while better than many is still not exactly fabulous.
quote:
Of course basic costs like supplies, power and utilities, are going up. What else is going on there?
A lot of our income goes on improving access to higher education for kids in the lower social groups (bursaries, scholarships, programmes that help them do better in exams, and so on). A hefty chunk more goes on campus maintenance and improvement - new buildings aren't cheap to build, and existing ones over a hundred years old aren't cheap to maintain (plus, they're hideously inefficient to heat).
You mention administrators, but universities are always going to need HR, Payroll, Finance, Planning, IT, Estates (including Halls of Residence), Catering (again including Halls), Legal, Marketing, Security and Alumni Relations staff. Not to mention Student Support, Registry, Admissions, Timetabling, Libraries, Lab Technicians and all the others who the students might actually interact with. Add in receptionists and cleaners to the mix. Oh, and there are the academics to pay as well.
And all of that now has to paid for out of tuition fees. Frankly, I'm amazed we're managing on only £9k per student...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Here's budget information for the University of California And from from another page on their website:
quote:
Even before today’s immediate budget challenge came along, UC had a huge problem: The state’s per-student funding for UC education has fallen 54 percent since 1990. In 1990, the state contributed $16,430 per student, or 78 percent of the total cost of education. By 2009-10, that figure had fallen to $7,570 per student, or 48 percent of the total cost. (Figures for both years are inflation adjusted).
Public schools are hardly "public" anymore.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I'd say on the whole higher education costs what it costs - you need highly skilled staff (both in teaching and admin/auxiliary), you need expensive facilities, you need a bunch of other expensive things.
The quality of the broad swathe of Western University education is the best it has ever been. Wages and job insecurity in the education sector is probably the worst it has ever been.
The problem is not actually with the costs of education nor the costs of academics or auxiliary staff. The problem is that the costs of university education doesn't any longer relate to the benefits of a university education. All it does in many people's experience is produced well educated but unemployed people with a lot of debt.
That is the problem of the student, of the university and also the country that aspires to the kinds of education which are a) not needed and b) unaffordable.
[ 20. September 2012, 15:59: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The problem with that argument is that the most expensive courses to run are the engineering, medicine and science courses that arguably we really do need - they need such expensive kit and workshops, as well as the academics. Those students are being subsidised by English students!
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Those students are being subsidised by English students!
Eh? I don't think anyone thinks £9k a year covers the costs of a Science or Engineering degree. Moreover, I believe universities tend to make far more from foreign students than home students because their fees are much higher.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
That is the problem of the student, of the university and also the country that aspires to the kinds of education which are a) not needed and b) unaffordable.
I was responding to this part of your comment, the education that is needed is unaffordable in current form if charged at full cost to those studying. What is currently happening is that the "not needed" courses are subsidising the needed - and English was the example I'd heard (and latched on to mentally).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Moreover, I believe universities tend to make far more from foreign students than home students because their fees are much higher.
Luckily, the current government's commitment to maintaining the international prestige of UK universities means that soon international students will be prevented from coming here and paying exorbitant fees, the scroungers.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Oh, I wish administrator salaries were going up exponentially! We've had sub-1% rises the last two or three years, which while better than many is still not exactly fabulous.
For once I find myself strangely compelled to agree with Marvin...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In terms of administration costs, I'm thinking of reports such as those mentioned in articles like this, which speak of "administrative bloat" on American college campuses.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The university term here is 8 months long (Sept-April), and the typical undergraduate works for the other 4 months.
When I went to university in the 1970s, half of 1 month's summer pay would pay the entire tuition and it was completely possible to live on the other 3½ months pay. I remember specifically the rise in tuition in my final year to $285.00 which was more than half of one month pay, and I had to get a part time job. Just to give a comparison, my rent at the time was 133/month.
To compare then, the average rent locally for a reasonable shared apartment/flat is between 900 and 1200/month. But tuition is more than $6000. That means about a 3x increase in real costs to education in the local economy in 35 or 40 years.
I blame the concept of "user pay". We used to consider that education was an investment in ourselves as a community. No longer. This concept of "user pay" has destroyed many public services and much of public funding. Another example: at the time of my attendance at university, a student bus trip cost 20¢, with a discount of 6 tickets for $1.00. This is about 1/10 of the hourly minimum wage. Now a trip costs 50% of the hourly minimum wage.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
It would probably be useful to make a distinction between US, UK and other countries' universities in this thread.
But, yes, I'd agree that in US universities administration costs - many of which are to my mind completely unnecessary - are a huge part of the costs of rising tuition and fees. College students shouldn't require that many babysitters; if they flunk out or can't find their way around the resources, they flunk out or can't find their way around the resources. Another factor is the fact that universities tend to run socialized medicine through their health centers, so most of the faculty and staff I know have been complaining about not only rising health costs but the through-the-roof rising costs of providing mental health care to students. And then there are the facilities. While I agree that building and maintaining facilities that the students and faculty need is a necessary expense, I do disagree with some of what university administrators describe as 'necessary'. While some argue that colleges and universities need (for example) state-of-the-art gym facilities in order attract and retain the best students, I'm not convinced that is an altogether useful use of most students' tuition and fees. I worked at one university ($45,000/year altogether - and that was years ago) where part of the housing cost included a house cleaner who would clean students' rooms once a week, which I found completely absurd.
So my hunch is that there are a lot of different factors and not all of them apply to every school in the US, much less abroad, making easy answers in terms of even describing the problem (much less coming up with a solution) nearabout impossible on a grand scale.
[ 20. September 2012, 17:17: Message edited by: saysay ]
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I also have been told that administrators are multiplying and their salaries are exponenting.
This is much of it, I think. Universities used to be organizations controlled by their faculties. This is no longer the case. (But since when did content providers ever keep the upper hand vis-a-vis the packagers and marketeers?)
To some extent the growth of administration has been dictated by ever-more-complex regulations and demands for statistical data on the part of governments and various accrediting agencies. In this regard one can't begrudge increased numbers. I see this thirst first-hand. Sometimes reporting everything we do seems to take as much time as doing it. But being able to quantify what we do and the resources we use to do it, make comparisons with similar institutions, and then present a well-documented case for more space or more staffing is one of the things my boss does very well. The results have been great for support of our department.
But more problematic, the salaries of administration continue to rise despite economic conditions that are quickly cited to explain the stagnation of everyone else's. At one time (perhaps still) the chancellor of the State System of Higher Education in Pennsylvania was the highest-paid government employee in the commonwealth, paid even more than the governor!
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I don't understand - if the USAmerican universities are so bad/expensive and the debt burden is so great and graduate unemployment/underemployment such a feature of life - why does anyone want to go? I'm not sure I would.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I forgot to mention the unprecedented lavishness of recreational facilities, in which universities must probably compete with one another as part of attracting students. No more do we have just a student union and a gymnasium with swimming pool. Campus is altogether an ideal environment for smart kids to court smart spouses so as to raise even smarter kids. Who'd want to turn that down?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Big money college / university athletics in the USA probably accounts for a lot of the state-of-the-art gyms. That's where athletes from around the world train and compete before going into the Olympics or professional leagues.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I don't understand - if the USAmerican universities are so bad/expensive and the debt burden is so great and graduate unemployment/underemployment such a feature of life - why does anyone want to go? I'm not sure I would.
That is something people have started discussing.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
I forgot to mention the unprecedented lavishness of recreational facilities, in which universities must probably compete with one another as part of attracting students.
Not to mention dining facilities.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Alogon's post 5 up, from a US perspective, ties up with my experience as an engineering lecturer in a fairly minor UK institution.
But...
Although non-academic staff numbers have shot up over the last 10 years, we've fairly recently had two vicious culls. And more recently than that, academic staff redundancies.
In our bit of the sector, 15 years ago we had a highly collegiate model where a smaller number of older, reasonably bright guys did mostly teaching (with one or two effective researchers). Kit and labs were mostly decrepit, but students were bright enough and kit worked well enough to teach them. We made up our own academic regs and changed them when they didn't work out.
Then we grew a lot as university pushed for research output - lots of younger people came in (incl me), swanked about their internationally-leading thought, and fought for smaller teaching loads. Kids got thicker, mostly (as all institutions took more students, thicker ones were left for us!) - and, having less confidence, started to agitate for better facilities. (One needs to be bright / have confidence to understand that 30 yr old kit which works is fine, and that a roller blackboard and a knowledgable lecturer are a good basis for a course). University centralised 'corporate governance' and everything became uniformly shit, in that sphere - whereas previously it had been patchily-shit, and in our bit, rather good.
Now research funding is cut back...staff costs are still the biggest outlay (and being cut), but uni is still spending £££ on flash facilities to woo dopey intake. Can't see how we can get genie back in bottle and go back to austerity model of 15 years ago, which is a shame as it worked well and didn't cost so much. And I pine for a roller blackboard or two...
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We have a local university president who has gone in for empire building on a massive scale, complete with triumphal arches (!), koi ponds, a new stadium, various fountains, and the most butt-ugly statuary you ever saw. I kid you not. One looks like a cross between a vampire and the Statue of Liberty. And I keep getting appeals from them to give money.... ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I put the problem down to university being seen as the balm for the job market, which has had a chronic unemployment problem for a few decades now. De-industrialization has been hard on the middle and lower classes. The elite, the governing class, used higher education as a balm and stoked a boom in it. The media fanned the flames.
It turns out education wasn't the problem, investment was, and still is. But our leaders (those who make capital and political decisions) haven't realized it yet.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
We have a local university president who has gone in for empire building on a massive scale, complete with triumphal arches (!),
I thought for a moment he might have got an option on the salvage of this - but I see it has been retained by its original owners.
Anyway, such a thrifty implementation of fascist architecture rather goes against the spirit of the thing, which in deference to the OP appears to require a maximal financial exploitation of the student body.
[ 21. September 2012, 08:19: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
So is this just an expression of the American Dream and ruthless hierarchical corporate academic structures exploiting the aspirations of the middle classes for dubious benefits?
I don't really see it like that in the UK. Whilst there are some wealthy universities, most seem to be struggling. Here, I'd say some kind of inertia is in play - there is too much invested (jobs, political capital, taxes etc) for everyone to admit that the system is broken.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
We have a local university president who has gone in for empire building on a massive scale, complete with triumphal arches (!),
I thought for a moment he might have got an option on the salvage of this - but I see it has been retained by its original owners.
Anyway, such a thrifty implementation of fascist architecture rather goes against the spirit of the thing, which in deference to the OP appears to require a maximal financial exploitation of the student body.
Ewwwww!!! I agree with this guy (from your article):
quote:
"It is vulgar, but vulgar in an unspeakably horrible, terrible – and therefore unique – way," said Hakim al-Zamili ...
Ours are vulgar indeed, but not in a particular unspeakabe or horrible way. More in a laughable way (everybody rolls their eyes as we drive under yet another one of _____'s arches (which span the public highway in several spots NOT belonging to the university, whose good idea was it to approve that?).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
LC - our own local authority had the good sense to insist 'get your f***ing flowers off our f***ing roundabout' - when the university powers that be encroached on local public space.
LR - quote:
ruthless hierarchical corporate academic structures exploiting the aspirations of the middle classes for dubious benefits
That nails it in my (institutional) corner of the UK - except in the name of widening participation, we're increasingly open to exploiting those whose aspiration might be to _join_ the middle class. That's the name of the game from the top down. Individuals within the institution often take a more principled, but in that unfortunately often counter-cultural, view... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
It depends on what one means by 'expensive'. If it is worth the salt, then so it should be. That is a different argument to access and grants, of course.
If one compares university fees with (say) a premier league Public (independent) School, universities are considerably cheaper. That is deducting 'boarding' from the fees. A classic example might be St Paul's or Westminister, therefore.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I'm more than a few years away from college in the U.S. One of the drivers was the deal struck in WWII that the universities would do research for the Goverment. It's been a huge source of funds but at the same time caused a huge surge in administrative overhead that has also swamped the education side.
Then the goverment funding has been cut but the elablorate apparatus remains intact.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Here at my (smallish, modern, UK) university, the heating has been put on and I have no way of turning it down myself so my room is roasting (and it's on full blast). I've heard similar stories from others in higher education. This seems to be an enormous waste!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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