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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Some of my best men are women...
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Salvation Army, an evangelical Christian church, has just announced the result of its election of a woman to be the 19th General - the worldwide leader of the TSA will be Commissioner Linda Bond.
She will become General on 2nd April.
Is it the case that the fact this is our 3rd woman General should be an encouragement and a challenge to other Christian denominations that wlomen in leadership is possible and indeed desirable?
The Army has had women officers (clergy), Divisional commanders (Bishops) since its inception. Is there really any reason to stop the progress from women priests to women bishops in the CofE?
And maybe eventually a female Archbishop of Canterbury?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
OOW is a dead horse. Down you go...
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Have you heard the old RC gag, Mudfrog?
'At Vatican III the clergy will bring their wives. At Vatican IV they'll bring their husbands ...'
While we're on the subject of the Sally Army, though, should I start a new thread to discuss the allegations in yesterday's Grauniad about alleged rag-trade profiteering from its recycling banks?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
Do female officers of the SA who marry still automatically take their husband's rank, even if that results in a significant demotion? If so, that might not go over as well as an encouraging example of the role of women.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Until such time as the CoE and the SA agree on the sacraments, I don't see the potential for much, um, crossover in terms of gender roles.
I suppose they have quite a lot in common on the issue of outdated uniforms, though...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Have you heard the old RC gag, Mudfrog?
'At Vatican III the clergy will bring their wives. At Vatican IV they'll bring their husbands ...'
While we're on the subject of the Sally Army, though, should I start a new thread to discuss the allegations in yesterday's Grauniad about alleged rag-trade profiteering from its recycling banks?
You can if you like; I'm absolutely horrified and officers I have been in contact with are equally dismayed by this.
[ 01. February 2011, 22:34: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
Do female officers of the SA who marry still automatically take their husband's rank, even if that results in a significant demotion? If so, that might not go over as well as an encouraging example of the role of women.
No that is not the case anymore. You get instances now where married women have a higher rank than their husbands. Everyone's officership is an individual vocation and women are valued equally.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Until such time as the CoE and the SA agree on the sacraments, I don't see the potential for much, um, crossover in terms of gender roles.
I suppose they have quite a lot in common on the issue of outdated uniforms, though...
You have evidently not seen very much in the way of modern Salvationist clothing.
here
We wear a lot of informal stuff now. I have spent the day in a grey polo shirt - not a tie or a military suit to be seen.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Take away the uniform and you take away the one thing (well, apart from social action) that tempts me to join the SA, as I hate deciding what to wear to church. Around here I still see a lot of old-style SA uniforms (mostly on old-style people, admittedly) heading off to the Army on Sunday morning.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
You have evidently not seen very much in the way of modern Salvationist clothing.
here
I don't think vicars and bishops wear full regalia all the time, either, but I was in a meeting on Friday in which the only SA officer was in full dress uniform.
On the page you linked to it says:
quote:
Wearing a uniform:
* reminds a person of their commitment to fight against evil;
* shows others that the wearer is a Christian;
* shows that the person is available should anyone need a helping hand or listening ear
A uniform seems a lot of work just for (i) (how about swapping it for a WWJD bracelet - something I also abhor but there you are...). (ii) does not (unfortunately) follow and I think that (iii) is increasingly not the case, due partly to the changing roles of secular uniform-wearers and partly to the declining profile of the SA. I have every admiration for the early work of the SA (and have read The General Next to God) but in my view the uniform and the militaristic language accompanying it are increasingly becoming a distraction rather than an asset.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have every admiration for the early work of the SA (and have read The General Next to God) but in my view the uniform and the militaristic language accompanying it are increasingly becoming a distraction rather than an asset.
I think that the militaristic language may have washed a bit better when there was a stronger belief in the concept of chivalry, and when Kriegsspiel was all the rage. But the first and second world wars have happened since then.
Then again, you might have thought that the Napoleonic wars would have had the same effect.
Nevertheless, I'm interested in seeing if there's any parallels between the way people feel about women in the priesthood, and the way people feel about women in the armed forces - since I suspect that the restrictions on women in both the priesthood and the military derive from a common cultural root.
There still seems to be a deeply rooted belief that women are somehow vulnerable to sexual predators in a way that men aren't, and that women are therefore less capable of defending themselves than men are - and, for that reason, are less suited to military activity. Furthermore, there's also a deeply rooted belief that when a woman does play the part of the warrior, then it's an act of chivalry on the part of her male comrades to prioritise the saving of her life over the saving of the lives of her other male colleagues. I think there's a danger that this kind of thinking could cause a systematic denial of opportunities for women to earn honours for bravery on their own merit, thereby perpetuating the belief that men are the chivalric saviours of women.
But there are women in the armed forces these days. And I suspect this observation has probably had more impact on the Salvation Army's view of women in the ministry than on the Church of England's view.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Army has had women officers (clergy), Divisional commanders (Bishops) since its inception. Is there really any reason to stop the progress from women priests to women bishops in the CofE?
And maybe eventually a female Archbishop of Canterbury?
Unfortunately, certainly to those of an Anglo-Catholic persuasion (whether in favour of the ordination of women or not), it is in no way comparable.
From the catholic point of view, there is absolutely no problem with women in leadership. The problem is whether or not women can be sacramentally ordained to an order believed to draw even from Melchizedek! I firmly believe that they can, though my argument is based on the very simple theory that I know women who I believe God is calling to the priesthood. In fact, I pray that one day Her Holiness the Pope and Her All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch (Matriarch?) will consecrate the Archbishop of Canterbury!! (But that is besides the point...)
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I fully understand and see the logic on both sides of thr argument as far as scarmantal a=ordination is concerned. It's propbably why TSA doesn't have much to say, tbh, about women in priesthood. If my some sesmic shift in ecumenical relations TSA was taken over by the CofE, Army officers would be accepted at diaconate level, not priesthood.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Take away the uniform and you take away the one thing (well, apart from social action) that tempts me to join the SA, as I hate deciding what to wear to church. Around here I still see a lot of old-style SA uniforms (mostly on old-style people, admittedly) heading off to the Army on Sunday morning.
Yes! Come and join us!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Until such time as the CoE and the SA agree on the sacraments, I don't see the potential for much, um, crossover in terms of gender roles.
I suppose they have quite a lot in common on the issue of outdated uniforms, though...
No doubt, especially in an age which tends to regard the very concept of a uniform as outdated. Many occupations which used to be marked by uniforms no longer are.
Whether this (dis)regard represents social progress or not might make an interesting Purgatory thread. The uniform I probably miss most is that of the mail carrier. When one stepped up to your front door, you used to know who he was and why he was doing it. Nowaways you haven't a clue. It can be vaguely unsetting.
Speaking of the respective uniforms in the Salvation Army and the Church of England, we might observe that most uniforms are tight-fitting, to emphasize, to the wearer and to others, the various constraints upon his behavior imposed by his status. But if, by the outdated uniforms of the church, you mean vestments, rather the opposite message is conveyed. As singularly loose-fitting garments, they might suggest psychologically, as they certainly do historically, the freedom of a civilized citizen of high rank: perhaps the freedom in which Christ has made us free?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Army has had women officers (clergy), Divisional commanders (Bishops) since its inception. Is there really any reason to stop the progress from women priests to women bishops in the CofE?
First, what do you mean by 'clergy'? People leading the songs, giving a devotion or a homily, etc? As you are devoid of sacraments, I wouldn't call them by that name. You are also assuming that bishops are nothing more than 'divisional commanders,' but in most traditional churches bishops have a clear sacramental (and some places even a sacrificial) role. So a woman becoming a SA 'divisional commander' wouldn't be the same as a woman becoming bishop.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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