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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Biblical View of Heaven
Evensong
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quote:
First-century Jews who believed Jesus was Messiah also believed he inaugurated the Kingdom of God and were convinced the world would be transformed in their own lifetimes, Wright said. This inauguration, however, was far from complete and required the active participation of God's people practicing social justice, nonviolence and forgiveness to become fulfilled.

Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth. "What we are doing at the moment is building for the Kingdom," Wright explained.


This is an excerpt from NT Wright asks: Have we got heaven all wrong?

I've got his new book but have yet had time to read it.

Coupla questions that come up for me:

1) It seems to me that the expectation that the Kingdom would come in the disciples lifetimes is well attested to in the NT. So why didn't it? It certainly began with the coming of Christ, but why didn't it come fully as was expected?

2) Do you believe we actively participate in bringing in the Kingdom of God or are we just filling in time until God does it all?

3) What are the implications for us today if we believe this kind of view? Do you like it? Dislike it? Why?

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W Hyatt
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Coupla quick responses from outside the mainstream:

1) The answer is probably related to a similar question, namely why did God wait so long to send his Son to begin with?

2) One thing I've noticed about the Gospels is that Jesus mostly taught and healed. He rarely did anything we would call "work" himself, although there is no indication that he was unable or unwilling. He almost always bid his disciples to do such things as cast their nets, find food or distribute it, pay tribute money, prepare the Passover, fetch a donkey, etc. The only exception I can think of off hand is that he gave food to the disciples at the Sea of Galilee after the Resurrection.

I think this is representative of God's relationship to people of all time. He rarely does the visible work necessary, but rather bids us do it for ourselves from our faith in him and for each other out of love for him. It's his way of allowing us to participate in fulfilling the purpose of his creation.

3) The implication I take from it is that God never wastes anything, including time. He is bidding us to do things like take up our bed and walk, follow him, and care for each other every moment of our lives because when we do these things for his sake, he is able to bring heaven to us. And I love this implication because as much as I look forward to life after death, I do not have to wait for anything.

[ 17. May 2012, 04:25: Message edited by: W Hyatt ]

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Ricardus
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Isn't the problem that there's no consensus on what Jesus meant by 'the Kingdom of Heaven'?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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LeRoc

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quote:
W Hyatt: One thing I've noticed about the Gospels is that Jesus mostly taught and healed. He rarely did anything we would call "work" himself
Teachers and doctors don't work? [Confused]

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:


Coupla questions that come up for me:

1) It seems to me that the expectation that the Kingdom would come in the disciples lifetimes is well attested to in the NT. So why didn't it? It certainly began with the coming of Christ, but why didn't it come fully as was expected?

2) Do you believe we actively participate in bringing in the Kingdom of God or are we just filling in time until God does it all?

3) What are the implications for us today if we believe this kind of view? Do you like it? Dislike it? Why?

1) They were wrong. Jesus said they don't know the day or hour. If they assumed it was 'tomorrow', well that was just their assumption.

2) Yes we actively participate. By prayer and 'anticipatory work.'

3)The parable says 'Occupy until he comes'. In other words, do the work of the Kingdom whilst lifting up our heads because our redemption draws nigh.


In my view, the kingdom is much more tangible and physical than heavenly music played by spirits on clouds.

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the long ranger
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Who said the Kingdom of Heaven isn't here? I think your question fails at the first hurdle: the kingdom of heaven is not just something that happens when you die.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth.

Gosh. It's going to be awfully crowded.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth.

Gosh. It's going to be awfully crowded.
Why, are you expecting all mankind to be saved?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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LeRoc

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It's a good thing many people go to Hell then, to avoid the restored earth becoming too full. I for one will want to have a nice peace of land with my mansion, so can't have to many buggers around here [Roll Eyes]

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth.

Gosh. It's going to be awfully crowded.
Why, are you expecting all mankind to be saved?
I think that anyone arguing as Wright does should be expecting all humankind to be resurrected.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
W Hyatt: One thing I've noticed about the Gospels is that Jesus mostly taught and healed. He rarely did anything we would call "work" himself
Teachers and doctors don't work? [Confused]
Good point - perhaps I should have said that he rarely did anything we would call "physical labor" himself.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth.

Gosh. It's going to be awfully crowded.
Not really, no more sea means a lot of extra land to play with, and a lot more areas would presumably be inhabitable if there is no more pain. Even if every human in history (something like 100 billion, it's estimated) were saved, there would be sufficient room.
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HCH
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Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem in response to the statement that the sea would be no more. How can Heaven be Heaven without the sea?
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cliffdweller
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I think we have only the vaguest idea of what the "new heaven and new earth" will be like, or whether it will literally be on this planet w/ it's current dimensions or be remade in some different way.

As I've mentioned before on other threads, Greg Boyd has done some interesting noodling on this, in his thinking re: natural evil. He envisions a new world where nature is no longer "red of tooth & claw"-- where larger animals no longer need to prey on smaller & weaker animals to survive. Which will require a complete rethinking of what, for example, a tiger would look like. He believes there will be tigers, of course, but they will be somehow different than the tigers we now see in this fallen world.

The same would be true for the planet as a whole. If we're all going to be able to live on it, if we're going to be sustainable w/o war and disease, it's going to need to be different physically. But since we live in a world where all of those things are necessary presumptions, I don't think we can possibly imagine what the new creation will look like.

I am tickled, however, by Lewis' notion that when we see that new, unimaginable reality, it will somehow "look right"-- obvious, even-- so that we will slap our foreheads and say, "Oh! Of course!"

[ 17. May 2012, 17:03: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Casineb
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem in response to the statement that the sea would be no more. How can Heaven be Heaven without the sea?

Well, speaking of first-century Christian/Jewish perspectives, the sea was seen as the place where Satan lived and where all 'evil' things came from. When Jesus cast 'Legion' out of the man by the side of the lake the demons fled into the pigs they drowned themselves in the sea - they were trying to return home.

So, following on from this, I'm sure early Christians expected the sea to disappear.

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TomOfTarsus
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I like the "now" and "not yet" approach to it. This world is still bitterly fallen. But the invasion has begun. You can live in it now, in that you can be an ambassador, as Paul says, or as Francis of Assisi said, "an instrument of Your peace."

I've used this illustration before, but as it's very relevant to this thread here's a repeat: I primarily like the relational aspects of Heaven. Rich Mullins, in his song "Be With You" asks that he be remade out of "stuff that's purer than gold is, and clearer than glass could ever be", a sweet interpretation of Rev. 21:21. I take that to mean that I will be perfectly holy and perfectly transparent, no "head games" or hidden agendas; completely trustworthy and forthcoming.

That is what I try to be now, to be a witness and a channel to for His love and transforming grace; hence the "now"; but the "not yet" because clearly I'm not perfectly holy, and it's impossible to be perfectly transparent, just from the nature of human limitations.

My 2 cents,

Tom

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Casineb:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem in response to the statement that the sea would be no more. How can Heaven be Heaven without the sea?

Well, speaking of first-century Christian/Jewish perspectives, the sea was seen as the place where Satan lived and where all 'evil' things came from. When Jesus cast 'Legion' out of the man by the side of the lake the demons fled into the pigs they drowned themselves in the sea - they were trying to return home.

So, following on from this, I'm sure early Christians expected the sea to disappear.

Thank you! I have always wondered about that.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Barefoot Friar

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I agree with Wright's assessment. Jesus said the kingdom is at hand -- within reach.

I think that the Baptist (at least on this side of the pond) idea of heaven as being some spiritual place to which you go when you die is gnosticism. It's the idea that matter is evil and spirit is good. Heaven is seen as the sweet bye-and-bye, and if we can just hang on and be good until we die we'll be ok. "Just give me a cabin on the corner of Glory-land," we sing.

I believe that heaven is more than "a mansion in the sky." Frankly, I am not much interested in spending eternity that way. I believe that heaven exists here and now: A baby's laugh, a child's birthday candles, a slice of caramel pecan pie, a glass of oatmeal stout or sweet iced tea, a hug from granny, a father's firm handshake... Also heaven is in someone's eyes when they realize something big about God, when priest or bishop presides at the table, when we engage in the selfless giving of mission work, and in countless other glimpses.

In short, "the kingdom of God is within you." Heaven is when we recognize it.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

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CuppaT
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There is a nice little book called Heaven is for Real which I read recently. There is nothing un-Orthodox about it at all. But the Nebraska minister whose little son tells of his experience seems astounded by many things that I think are normal.

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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
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TomOfTarsus
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I liked that book.

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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Isn't the problem that there's no consensus on what Jesus meant by 'the Kingdom of Heaven'?

There is consensus that it is now and not yet. What Wright argues is that in the end, when the kingdom comes in it's fullness, all will be transformed. Heaven will be on earth.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
1) They were wrong. Jesus said they don't know the day or hour. If they assumed it was 'tomorrow', well that was just their assumption.

Just before that quote in Mark, Jesus says he will return within the generation and heaven and earth as we know it will pass away. Are you happy to say Jesus was wrong too?

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Who said the Kingdom of Heaven isn't here? I think your question fails at the first hurdle: the kingdom of heaven is not just something that happens when you die.

Again, Wright's argument (and the I believe - the biblical tradition) says the kingdom is here, but it is not yet complete. It will only be complete when Jesus returns.

Then the whole earth will be renewed and we will all rise from the dead as he did. There is no "disembodied" heaven.

quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I agree with Wright's assessment. Jesus said the kingdom is at hand -- within reach.

At hand (Mark 1:14:15) does not imply within reach (although later texts do). It implies it is imminent. It's about to happen. The renewal of creation is at hand!

Didn't happen tho.

Sucks.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
This is an excerpt from NT Wright asks: Have we got heaven all wrong?

This puzzles me because I think that Christians, and it seems to me most people on the Ship, fairly consistently say what Wright is saying. He's just parroting the same old line.

I think that Wright has heaven all wrong. The more daring and divergent alternative, which is also completely biblical, is that people enter a spiritual realm called heaven when they die and stay there forever.

The fact that this is also the popular cultural conception of heaven, not only in the Christian world but in most parts of the world, doesn't bother me at all.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Chorister

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It strikes me as a very earth-centric view, given our modern understanding of the universe.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

I think that Wright has heaven all wrong. The more daring and divergent alternative, which is also completely biblical, is that people enter a spiritual realm called heaven when they die and stay there forever.

But what about the resurrection of the body?

Jesus was "first fruits" remember? We too shall one day be raised as he was.

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It strikes me as a very earth-centric view, given our modern understanding of the universe.

You could see it that way.

Or you could see it as a view that affirms the incarnation and the ultimate goodness of creation. The gnostics would disagree that heaven could ever be on earth because the earth ( and our physical bodies) is "bad" and to be escaped.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem in response to the statement that the sea would be no more. How can Heaven be Heaven without the sea?

Three of the thirteen verses.

THUS said the Lord in the vault above the cherubim,
Calling to the angels and the souls in their degree;
“Lo! Earth has passed away
On the smoke of Judgment Day.
That our word may be established shall we gather up the sea?”

Then cried the soul of the stout Apostle Paul to God:
“Once we frapped a ship, and she labored woundily.
There were fourteen score of these,
And they blessed Thee on their knees,
When they learned Thy grace and glory under Malta by the sea.”

Sun, wind and cloud shall fail not from the face of it,
Stringing, ringing spindrift nor the fulmar flying free,
And the ships shall go abroad
To the glory of the Lord,
Who heard the silly sailor men and gave them back their sea!

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem in response to the statement that the sea would be no more. How can Heaven be Heaven without the sea?

Three of the thirteen verses.

THUS said the Lord in the vault above the cherubim,
Calling to the angels and the souls in their degree;
“Lo! Earth has passed away
On the smoke of Judgment Day.
That our word may be established shall we gather up the sea?”

Then cried the soul of the stout Apostle Paul to God:
“Once we frapped a ship, and she labored woundily.
There were fourteen score of these,
And they blessed Thee on their knees,
When they learned Thy grace and glory under Malta by the sea.”

Sun, wind and cloud shall fail not from the face of it,
Stringing, ringing spindrift nor the fulmar flying free,
And the ships shall go abroad
To the glory of the Lord,
Who heard the silly sailor men and gave them back their sea!

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:


I think that the Baptist (at least on this side of the pond) idea of heaven as being some spiritual place to which you go when you die is gnosticism. It's the idea that matter is evil and spirit is good. Heaven is seen as the sweet bye-and-bye .


Jesus says to the repentant thief on the day that both knew they would die -- " Today you will be with Me in Paradise ".

The 'martyr's charter'? Does for me though .

By all means have a look at the complicated stuff , but thoughts of folk being flung into sulphur pits disturbs the euphoria somewhat.

One thing about Heaven is that there will be no concept of boredom, otherwise it would be Hell.

In short, "the kingdom of God is within you." Heaven is when we recognize it.

[Overused]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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John D. Ward
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Link to the complete poem:

The Last Chantey

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It strikes me as a very earth-centric view, given our modern understanding of the universe.

True. The alternative, though, strikes me as very gnostic-- very negative on the value of this world, and of the material universe.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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HCH
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I did not mean to disrupt the thread when I mentioned Kipling's poem. Jesus did have a number of fishermen among his followers, and I somehow think they would have been dismayed by the disappearance of the sea.

As for the original topic: I also tend to agree with Padre Joshua. I tend to take an intellectual approach to the matter; I think Heaven is at hand for each of us to the extent that we accept God's love and will, and Hell to the extent that we reject God's love and will. It's not an entirely satisfactory view. These things evolve.

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Lamb Chopped
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Well, I am dismayed by the idea of the sea disappearing, and I hope very much that the point was symbolical. I suspect it is. (Wot no more jellyfish? no surfing?)

Given the fact that the new Jerusalem is said to be a cube, I think it's a mistake to blithely assume that all the glorious descriptions in the book of Revelation are going to turn out to look exactly like the images we have now as a result of reading them. I think there will be a lot of "Oh, I get it NOW" moments. (A cube, really? So one huge apartment complex? doesn't sound like heaven to me, more like t'other place)

And we are told it's going to be a new heaven and earth, which I take to mean a new cosmos or universe. That being the case, I see no reason why God would expect us to remain on the one planet. We're within dreaming range of leaving it now, at least for short trips. And it's a heckuva big universe out there, even this side of Judgment Day. What will be after that should be even more awesome. And there are hints that we might get to be in on the action.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Kaplan Corday
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It’s certainly true that there is currently a strong move away from the idea of Heaven as a disembodied, spiritual, extraterrestrial state, and a new emphasis on Heaven as consisting of perfectly restored conditions here on earth.

Possibly this has something to do with the influence of the environmental movement over the last few decades.

It is also true that Revelation appears to portray the final state with inconsistent, nonliteral imagery, ie both a garden, suggesting renewed nature (but without a sea), and a garish, sterile-sounding city.

The problem with Heaven’s consisting of an ideal form of what we know already, is that the thought of doing or enjoying anything for ever without end (and yes, eternal life in the Bible speaks of quality, not quantity, but it is difficult for us not to think of it in temporal terms) no matter how pleasurable, is faintly nauseating, from the sublime (playing Mozart) to the ridiculous (playing golf), to bonking seventy-two houris.

One commentator wrote that he was looking forward to pursuing his favourite past-time of sailing in on a lake with his grand-children, with the weather conditions always just right, and the lake unpolluted.

Non-stop?

If, however, Heaven is going to consist of something beyond our conception, and of which we could not conceivably tire (“eye has not seen…ear has not heard…neither has entered into the heart of man…”) then there are two other problems.

On the one hand, it can be described in terms and dimensions of what we know already, in which case we are not really helped.

C.S. Lewis somewhere writes about a small child asking whether going on your honeymoon is like eating chocolate.

On the other hand, it can be described in vague generalities (ineffable, sublime, glorious, awesome, transcendent…) which are too abstract to get any purchase on our imaginations.

We can then finish up like the adult who replied to the child's question about what it will be like after we die with, "Well, it will no doubt be joyful and fufilling for us beyond description, but let's not dwell on such morbid topics".

[ 20. May 2012, 06:16: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Isn't the problem that there's no consensus on what Jesus meant by 'the Kingdom of Heaven'?

There is consensus that it is now and not yet. What Wright argues is that in the end, when the kingdom comes in it's fullness, all will be transformed. Heaven will be on earth.
Yes, but that doesn't explain what it actually is.

Remembering a (rather old) Gospel commentary, I seem to recall four possible, and not necessarily mutually exclusive, interpretations:

1. The Kingdom of Heaven is the (somewhat metaphorical) realm in which God and the saints are supposed to reside. 'The Kingdom of God is at hand' means 'the world is about to end, and the saved will all be united with God.'

2. The Kingdom of Heaven is metonymy for God Himself. 'The Kingdom of God is at hand' means 'God is with us', either in the Person of Christ or in the Eucharist or the indwelling Holy Spirit.

3. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Church. (This needs a certain degree of wriggling to explain why Inquisition, Crusades and child abuse are part of the Church but not part of Heaven, and I don't think I have ever actually heard this interpretation in real life.) 'The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand' means 'I am about to found the Church.'

4. The Kingdom of Heaven means the works of God expressed in the lives of the believers. 'Go and advance the Kingdom' means 'Go and do my works,' so 'The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand' means 'People are going to do my works.'

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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cliffdweller
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You seem to be missing the "both/and" option-- Ladd's famous "the Kingdom is both now & not yet". This pov would say that the Kingdom of God is the place where God reigns. That would include "heaven"-- the dimension/place where angels dwell-- but would also include the earth for anyone who submits his/her life to God. Any time we are seeking God, obeying God, discerning God, we are participating in the Kingdom of God. This would be the perspective NT Wright is outlining, for example, in Simply Christian.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
You seem to be missing the "both/and" option--

That was supposed to be implicit in the "not necessarily mutually exclusive", though I appreciate it wasn't very clearly worded.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

I think that Wright has heaven all wrong. The more daring and divergent alternative, which is also completely biblical, is that people enter a spiritual realm called heaven when they die and stay there forever.

But what about the resurrection of the body?
The resurrected body is spiritual, as Paul said.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Yes, but that doesn't explain what it actually is.

Remembering a (rather old) Gospel commentary, I seem to recall four possible, and not necessarily mutually exclusive, interpretations:

1. The Kingdom of Heaven is the (somewhat metaphorical) realm in which God and the saints are supposed to reside. 'The Kingdom of God is at hand' means 'the world is about to end, and the saved will all be united with God.'

I don't especially recognize any of these four as what I understand as the common belief, but this is the closest.

The kingdom of heaven is the realm where God and the angels reside. It is not metaphorical. Everyone will pass into that spiritual realm when they die. The good will go to heaven and the evil to hell.

This same kingdom is also present within every person on earth, because the physical and spiritual worlds are intimately connected.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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LeRoc

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What exactly would be the difference between a metaphorical spiritual realm and a non-metaphorical spiritual realm?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What exactly would be the difference between a metaphorical spiritual realm and a non-metaphorical spiritual realm?

A metaphor is not tanglible. It is an idea.

A non-metaphorical spiritual realm is tangible to those in that realm. It is not just an idea, it is real. When you die it is the real world that you inhabit. It was seen and experienced by numerous prophets.

Ideas are certainly real, but as ideas not worlds.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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LeRoc

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quote:
Freddy: A non-metaphorical spiritual realm is tangible to those in that realm.
Tangible as in: "the molecules in my fingers will touch the molecules in this realm, and a physical force will be exerted between them?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Freddy: A non-metaphorical spiritual realm is tangible to those in that realm.
Tangible as in: "the molecules in my fingers will touch the molecules in this realm, and a physical force will be exerted between them?
Yes. A spiritual being in a spiritual realm experiences things almost exactly like a physical being in a physical realm.

So when a person dies their spiritual body is resurrected in the spiritual world. The experience is almost exactly as if they were resurrected in the physical world.

This is why the biblical accounts, such as that of Paul when he was lifted up into the "third heaven" or Ezekiel, or John on Patmos, describe heaven as if it were a physical place.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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LeRoc

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How boring. That's the same as we have here. Yeah I know, we'll always be happy and never be hungry anymore, but what's the point?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Ricardus
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I put "metaphorical" because "realm" suggests a place, and God is not restricted to any one place.

If Heaven is defined as 'the place where God is', that implies (to me) that there's also a place where God isn't.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
How boring. That's the same as we have here. Yeah I know, we'll always be happy and never be hungry anymore, but what's the point?

The point is that a life of service in that realm is immensely interesting and fulfilling.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I put "metaphorical" because "realm" suggests a place, and God is not restricted to any one place.

If Heaven is defined as 'the place where God is', that implies (to me) that there's also a place where God isn't.

Indeed. God isn't restricted but neither is he excluded from being in 'a place'. I believe heaven will indeed be a place and that God will not be in that place called hell.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
If Heaven is defined as 'the place where God is', that implies (to me) that there's also a place where God isn't.

Good point. God is omnipresent.

I think the idea is about relative imminence. God is everywhere, but He can seem to be more present or more absent for a host of reasons.

One of those factors is that we live in a physical world in which He is invisible and intangible - because the physical is unable to see or touch the spiritual or the divine.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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LeRoc

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quote:
Freddy: The point is that a life of service in that realm is immensely interesting and fulfilling.
Serve whom? We're not going to serve other people anymore, because there's no more hunger and no more pain. So I guess you mean serving God? Kneeling and singing to Him, that's what we're going to do all the time? Is that what's going to make me happy?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Freddy: The point is that a life of service in that realm is immensely interesting and fulfilling.
Serve whom? We're not going to serve other people anymore, because there's no more hunger and no more pain. So I guess you mean serving God? Kneeling and singing to Him, that's what we're going to do all the time? Is that what's going to make me happy?
Yes, useful service to others and to God is the source of all happiness. It's the way life works, as much in this world as the next.

I don't mean slavery. I mean activity that has a point and a purpose, that has potential results that are beneficial, that is interesting and meaningful. Life is no fun without a point, as you indicate in your post.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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LeRoc

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quote:
Freddy: Yes, useful service to others and to God is the source of all happiness.
I definitely agree with this.

But what would the point of serving others if they have no needs? And what needs would God have?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But what would the point of serving others if they have no needs? And what needs would God have?

It's all about the needs that are inherent in love.

Love seeks to make the object of its love happy, and is willing to work hard to make that happen.

Love also wants to be freely joined with the object of its love.

So the whole enterprise is about joining everyone together and making everyone happy. This involves every form of useful service that has been invented. Every form of purposeful activity plays a role in this grand scheme. It's one large community, segmented into an infinite number of smaller units, all for the purposes of God's love.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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