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Source: (consider it) Thread: NYT ex-gay article
Ultracrepidarian
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I read this fascinating article earlier in the week and I'm still not entirely sure what I make of it. I tend to the fairly conventional view that sexual orientations are pretty much fixed and that there shouldn't be any 'happy ex-gays' unless they weren't really gay to start with. This story seems to fly in the face of that.

What do other people think of the story of Michael Glatze?

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Timothy the Obscure

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I think we don't know enough to say--there certainly is plenty of evidence that sexual orientation can be fluid in some cases (more so in women than in men), and reason to suspect that homosexuality (and for that matter heterosexuality) are not monolithic phenomena. There may be several causal pathways to a given pattern of overt behavior, some more subject to environmental influence and conscious choice than others.

That said, one has to be skeptical of claims to have changed from gay to straight, simply because there have been so many examples of such claims that turned out to be false.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
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orfeo

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His reasoning is both right and wrong, and untangling the different strands is a tricky exercise.

For instance, he says that God loves you more than any guy could. Correct. But you could say the exact same thing to any heterosexual person - God loves you more than any person of the opposite gender ever could.

The same goes for all the material about brokenness and feeling lost. Heterosexuals are just as capable of leading hedonistic 'lifestyles' that turn out not to be fulfilling.

The great, great difficulty in all ex-gay programs is linking these problems and saying 'it's because you're homosexual'. Well no, in most cases it simply isn't. Unless, of course, you weren't being true to who you are to begin with - which is why the part on the last page suggesting that this man wasn't actually homosexual didn't surprise me.

PS I agree it's a fascinating article, it struck me as well written.

[ 22. June 2011, 03:44: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Lyda*Rose

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It reminds me of IngoB's faith DNA. It sounds like Michael needs to 1) have an air-tight, rigorous framework to his sexuality and his views on it, 2) he wants to save people from wrong sexuality, and 3) he has to allow no wriggle room for doubts that he is right.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Evensong
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I have an acquantance that was gay but is now apparently straight.

Apparently the bible set him straight.

quote:
In a WorldNetDaily article, Michael wrote about why he believes he mistakenly took on a gay identity: “When I was about 13 I decided I must be gay because I was unable to handle my own masculinity.” He went on to blame his father for that, which is consistent with the ex-gay narrative that same-sex attraction among boys is often a result of a deficit of masculinity, usually caused by a fissure in the father-son bond.
Don't know much about this kind of narrative but boy oh boy does this acquaintance get upset if you say God is female.

He's quite overt about needing God to be male and love him because his own father never told him he loved him.

I can't see how he can't see the projection! He's an intelligent bloke.... [Disappointed]

Are there lots of gay clergy in the church because of unrequited love projected onto a male God? [Confused]

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The5thMary
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Evensong, what an interesting idea! In my case, I struggled for years with the idea of a Father God. I always wondered why people couldn't picture or relate to a Mother God. When I was trying to be a happy little heterosexual and failing miserably, I thought I was under the wrath of an angry male God. When a friend (a Catholic nun, no less!) told me that it was perfectly all right to picture God as Mother, a lot of my hang-ups and struggles resolved themselves. Now I'm an out and proud lesbian but it's funny... although I mostly imagine and experience God as Mother, I don't consider Her as Lover. Ok, maybe sometimes, but mostly not. Maybe this has not a thing to do with what you all are discussing! It's late, I'm very tired and now I'm going to bed. [Smile]

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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orfeo

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Evensong, that bit you quoted is another illustration of what I'm talking about.

Ex-gay groups definitely do hit the 'father issues' button a lot - that was my experience as well.

But who the heck DOESN'T have father issues? The percentage of the population with father issues of some description is massively high, as is the percentage of the male population who struggle in some way with their concept of masculinity. In both cases, way higher than the percentage of homosexuals.

If you ask a homosexual male whether they have father issues, they're going to go "Oh My God Yes, How Did You Know?'. But so what? Where's the correlation?

It's a lot like selling tiger repellent.

Even if you could prove correlation, is the son gay because he had father issues, or are there father issues because the father and son are aware at some level that the son is gay?

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Jane R
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orfeo:
quote:
PS I agree it's a fascinating article, it struck me as well written.
Well, but just because it's well-written doesn't mean everything he says is true...

ISTM that it is at least *possible* that some bisexual men struggling to come to terms with being male end up thinking they're (exclusively) homosexual. Because that gives them a way of explaining why they don't like football/are fond of wearing pink shirts/aren't interested in having sex with girls. I don't think you can extrapolate from one man's experience to say 'therefore all men who claim to be gay are really just closet straights'.

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Liopleurodon

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Stephen Fry has described himself as "90% gay". I think my own slice of gayness is about the same. I dated women exclusively until I was 29 - for the last year and a bit I've been with a man (I'm female). I have a friend who is in a similar situation but in reverse.

My own take on this is pretty much: fair enough - I'm 90% gay. There was always a chance someone would trigger the other 10%. I didn't set out to find a man. However, I am aware that if someone else found herself in this situation, at a particular point in her life (when she was becoming interested in religion, perhaps) it might have been read in a completely different way - as being "saved" from same-sex attraction. It's a bit like someone taking a homeopathic remedy, getting better by coincidence and then swearing by homeopathy for the rest of their life.

Is sexual orientation open to change? I think it depends what you mean. I think it is more fluid than many people think, but I don't think that means you can "set out" to change it. It's not open to conscious effort. I'm also very wary of people who drivel on about "I don't believe in labelling people as gay or straight. I don't believe in labels at all" as I've found that these people generally have an agenda around trying to persuade people to conform to what they think sexuality should be.

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I don't think you can extrapolate from one man's experience to say 'therefore all men who claim to be gay are really just closet straights'.

This is important. I am very aware that I could walk into many churches, tell my story and be hailed as someone who had broken away from the chains of homosexuality (probably safest to marry the guy first, but if I did that it'd work like a charm). I could probably harvest a load of admiration and affirmation and be held up as an example to others. I don't want that to happen, because I know how much it can suck being gay and young, or gay and Christian, and I'm damned if I'm prepared to be used as a stick with which to hit vulnerable people.

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Lyda*Rose

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I'm afraid Michael might be in for a shock if he ever leaves his little Christian enclave. I think the "gay" could strike again. And woe! the wailing and despair!

Seriously, I think it's likely one of those mixed sexuality situations, with a bunch of other personal and social issues thrown in. But God help the poor gay youngsters he is now going to "cure" because he has a sexuality unique to his bodily system and to his life decisions.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:
I read this fascinating article earlier in the week and I'm still not entirely sure what I make of it. I tend to the fairly conventional view that sexual orientations are pretty much fixed and that there shouldn't be any 'happy ex-gays' unless they weren't really gay to start with. This story seems to fly in the face of that.

Heard it all before. There seem to be so many people nowadays (including myself) who are of the opinion that it's wrong to constrain a person by pre-supposed notions of fixed sexual orientation, that it's even got a name: "pomosexuality".

My view is that there is no universally recognised yardstick for determining whether a person is gay or straight. "Gaydar" is a myth. With the exception of people who are known to be in long-term committed relationship, most of what we base our beliefs as to whether a person is "probably gay" or "probably straight" on are stereotypes - for example, gay men are a bit camp, lesbians are a bit butch, that sort of thing.

And as for people who are in long-term relationships - it's not unknown for a "gay" man to be in a long-term straight relationship, just to please his parents, or his church, or his army commanding officer, or whatever. But equally, it's not unknown for "straight" men to get into gay relationships because they've been bullied for being a bit effeminate in the past, making them want to prove the point that even if they were gay, it wouldn't matter.

It just seems like a fallacy to suppose that a straight person who seems to turn gay is to be celebrated for "coming out", because he was gay all along - whereas a gay person who seems to turn straight must never have been truly gay to begin with.

The idea that a publicly straight but secretly gay person might "come out" as gay is now fairly widely accepted as normal in popular culture. But the idea that a publicly gay but secretly straight person might "come out" as straight is only really taken seriously by Christian fundamentalists.

So, if a person finds that they have come to be publicly known for being gay, when they're actually straight, and they want to do something about it, but can't cope with it on their own - then the only people who will actually take that problem seriously, and give them support, are the Christian fundamentalists. That support tends to be given in the form of what is called "reparative therapy".

It's a tragedy, but that's the way it is. I don't want people to be forced to choose between crazy fundies, or trying to cope in silence - but sometimes, the Christian fundamentalists are the lesser of two evils. And it's going to stay like that until the rest of us get over our ideology about the permanence of sexual orientation.

Let's stop treating people who have come to be known to be gay, but who now think they're straight, as though they are somehow traitors to the gay cause - because, really, they're not. However, they may come to be traitors to the gay cause if the Christian fundamentalists are the only people who are prepared to meet them where they are.

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
Let's stop treating people who have come to be known to be gay, but who now think they're straight, as though they are somehow traitors to the gay cause - because, really, they're not. However, they may come to be traitors to the gay cause if the Christian fundamentalists are the only people who are prepared to meet them where they are.

Holy crap, we agree on something *blinks*

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
That said, one has to be skeptical of claims to have changed from gay to straight, simply because there have been so many examples of such claims that turned out to be false.

Okay. But should we not also be sceptical of claims to have changed from straight to gay, for the same reason?

Indeed, should we also not be sceptical of the claims of anyone who says they're straight, even if they have never previously claimed to be gay - on the grounds that some people do indeed "come out" as gay later on in life?

It can be highly traumatic for a previously-thought straight person to come out as gay - but, likewise, it can be highly traumatic for a previously-thought gay person to come out as straight. So I think we should not be sceptical of it - because it's precisely that scepticism that drives people in this situation into the hands of Christian fundamentalists.

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Earwig

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quote:
Originally posted by Ultracrepidarian:
What do other people think of the story of Michael Glatze?

Very sad! There's a bit at the end where he's quoted as saying “It doesn’t get better if you’re gay.” He struck me as someone who's trying to find happiness in ideologies.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I could probably harvest a load of admiration and affirmation and be held up as an example to others. I don't want that to happen, because I know how much it can suck being gay and young, or gay and Christian, and I'm damned if I'm prepared to be used as a stick with which to hit vulnerable people.

Brava.

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Matt Black

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Seconded.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Joan_of_Quark

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He reminded me of a man interviewed in a documentary about Israel that I saw years ago. He was an orthodox Brooklyn Jewish guy who emigrated to Israel, and a few years after that converted to Islam and became a very intemperate activist, shouting on camera that Israel or Israelis or both had "no right to exist".

I think some people have a need to be dogmatic and right about everything.

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amber.
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I don't think you can extrapolate from one man's experience to say 'therefore all men who claim to be gay are really just closet straights'.

This is important. I am very aware that I could walk into many churches, tell my story and be hailed as someone who had broken away from the chains of homosexuality (probably safest to marry the guy first, but if I did that it'd work like a charm). I could probably harvest a load of admiration and affirmation and be held up as an example to others. I don't want that to happen, because I know how much it can suck being gay and young, or gay and Christian, and I'm damned if I'm prepared to be used as a stick with which to hit vulnerable people.
[Overused] Aye. Not least when we're in a week where all the CofE Gay Bishop stuff has happened,... and our best compromise is that the 10% of Bishops who are known to be gay either have to hide, or have to repent of all gayness and promise faithfully that they are totally celibate with any gay partners. What it says to vulnerable youngesters who are exploring their sexuality is anyone's guess. Especially when straight Bishops don't apparently have to repent of past straight non-marriage sex. It's a mess in churches already.
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Beeswax Altar
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First page, I thought the case was interesting. Kept reading and decided it really wasn't.

At times, the guy is attracted to both men and women. He's bi. Nothing out of the ordinary there.

The guy had a religious experience which causes cognitive dissonance with what was his worldview. He interpreted the experience through a Christian lens. Hated Christian fundamentalism. Tried progressive Christianity. Didn't think it was able to take seriously his experience. Became a fundamentalist because it did and then suppressed the sexual attractions that conflicted with his new viewpoint. Nothing out of the ordinary with any of that.

The guy is close minded. Every now and then something forces his mind open and changes it. However, once that happens, his mind closes once again. He simply replaces one extreme viewpoint for another. Happens all the time. Fundamentalist Christians become militant atheists. Militant atheists become Christian fundamentalists. Evangelical Protestants become Traditionalist Roman Catholics. What he can't seem to do is find a middle ground. Nothing out of the ordinary there either.

Homosexuality presents a unique moral quandary. This guy and other fundamentalist Christians view it as an unhealthy addiction that is a symptom of a spiritual addiction. Sexual attraction to members of the same sex is no different from alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, or any other sexual addiction. Supporters of this view have no problems finding examples to support their view of the destructiveness of the gay lifestyle.

On the other hand, opponents of that view can point to plenty of other gay couples living in happy and committed relationships. Finding alcoholics and drug addicts who are truly happy and living productive lives is a bit more difficult. The question then becomes is it homosexuality per se that is destructive or a particularly destructive lifestyle lived by some gays or lesbians?

Would the lifestyle that is destructive for gays and lesbians some how not be destructive if lived by straight people?

I don't think anybody could make a case for that.

Are gays and lesbians more likely to embrace a destructive lifestyle?

I'm not sure. However, even if gays and lesbians are more likely to engage in self destructive behavior, is that because they are gay or because of how the larger society treats gay people? Given the existence of perfectly happy gay and lesbian couples, I'm inclined to see it as the latter.

Therefore, the solution to the problem would appear to make it possible and even encourage gays and lesbians to be in healthy and committed relationships. Allowing gay marriage is one of the most important ways of doing that. Embrace gays and lesbians as normal and all of the negative things associated with a particular lifestyle will become less of a problem.

But, some continue to maintain without much evidence that I can see that homosexual acts and even orientation are inherently wrong. For them, homosexuality is spiritually damaging. And, yet, how can something be spiritually damaging but not have effect on the rest of your life? How can something spiritually damaging actually make people happier than they were? Wouldn't that make homosexuality a unique exception in Christian moral theology?

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Jessie Phillips
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Okay, I've actually read it all the way through now. And this, from near the end:
quote:
It doesn’t get better if you’re gay? Michael would have punched me in the mouth if I said that back when we worked together. I never would have, of course, because it’s a lie. But also dishonest, in retrospect, was our claim in a 1999 issue of XY that “everyone is happier” after coming out. Michael insisted that we include that line, but it was wishful thinking, and ex-gays are living proof of it.
Spot on, in my opinion.

There seems to be a whole mythology that has grown up around "coming out". It seems to teach that if you're unhappy, it's because you're probably gay, and you're still in the closet. It also acknowledges that coming out is a scary thing to do - much like the quester who goes to slay the big scary monster or dragon that's hiding in the enchanted forest or misty mountains, or whatever - but once you have slain that monster, and established yourself as gay, then the gay community will celebrate you as a hero, and everything will be better.

Trouble is - very often, it doesn't actually work.

But the "coming out" pop myth lives on. Is it any wonder if people who aren't actually gay, but who are merely a bit insecure in the idea that they are straight, end up latching onto the "coming out" myth, in the hope that it might solve their problems?

And once they've done it, what then? When everyone around them is saying, "But I thought you said you were gay", and "You've always been gay, don't be in denial" - where do they turn? What if our supposedly gay man tries chatting up a woman, but his advances are spurned, on the grounds that he's "obviously" gay?

Without putting too fine a point on it, a man who has gained a rep for being gay who then tries to chat up a woman, is likely to be treated with suspicion by that woman, on the grounds that his apparent change of sexual orientation might be a sign that he's a bit of a Lothario. In such circumstances, throwing yourself at the Christian fundamentalists might be a good way of putting such suspicions to rest. Indeed, the Christian fundamentalists may even go so far as to provide a free matchmaking service for those who pass themselves off as "ex-gay".

Is it necessarily such a bad thing when this happens? Perhaps not. So is there anything to be gained from trying to squash the popular "coming out" mythology?

I don't deny that some people who call themselves gay really are gay. And if being able to spin their own "coming out" yarns and be thought interesting for it as helped them to come to terms with that, then that's a good thing, in my opinion.

In spite of queer theory and "pomosexuality", it still seems that the common assumption is that a young single person is straight, unless there's reason to believe otherwise.

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
On the other hand, opponents of that view can point to plenty of other gay couples living in happy and committed relationships. Finding alcoholics and drug addicts who are truly happy and living productive lives is a bit more difficult. The question then becomes is it homosexuality per se that is destructive or a particularly destructive lifestyle lived by some gays or lesbians?

You are, of course, completely right.

Right up to the moment that someone pipes up and says "but I don't think my life will be complete until I've settled down, got married, and had children!"

Mid-life crises have a rather nasty habit of forcing an urgent resolution on that issue. Especially on women. But even on men, to a lesser extent, seeing as a lot of people prefer companionship with people of their own age group, and it can be a lot more difficult to set up and maintain a relationship over a big age gap.

But what if the issue is left unresolved? You've then got an existential angst problem. And it seems to me that existential angst does tend to correlate with drug and alcohol abuse, to some extent.

But I don't think the solution to that problem is to stop people from being gay, and force them to be straight. We really don't need a population explosion. If some people don't want kids, that's okay by me; indeed, if they're able to find a sense of place in the community, and a sense of purpose in life, that does not require them to have children, then that is to be very much encouraged. And besides - you can always adopt or foster.

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Matariki
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This is an interesting story. I am sure that our sexuality is more fragile and complex than we often think or are comfortable imagining. However me typing "I Am Straight" just now doesn't make it so.
Reading Michael's story I am struck by continuity as much as discontinuity. Here was this passionately articulate 'out' gay man who seemed to be a role model to many who has now embraced the particular certainties of Christian fundamentalism. At both stages he is convinced of the absolute rightness of his cause. Some of us feel our way, struggle for meaning and muddle through - he doesn't seem to and seems to need the certainty of rightness.
God loves me more than "some dude" can, I am sure. Also God loves me more than any woman could either but in the economy of God desire, erotic and romantic love serve to make us more loving, tender, creative and humane. Michael's observation is both self evidently true and completely misses the point at the same time.

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
There seems to be a whole mythology that has grown up around "coming out". It seems to teach that if you're unhappy, it's because you're probably gay, and you're still in the closet. It also acknowledges that coming out is a scary thing to do - much like the quester who goes to slay the big scary monster or dragon that's hiding in the enchanted forest or misty mountains, or whatever - but once you have slain that monster, and established yourself as gay, then the gay community will celebrate you as a hero, and everything will be better.

Trouble is - very often, it doesn't actually work.

But the "coming out" pop myth lives on. Is it any wonder if people who aren't actually gay, but who are merely a bit insecure in the idea that they are straight, end up latching onto the "coming out" myth, in the hope that it might solve their problems?

Are you gay or lesbian yourself? I think you trivialise what is an absolutely enormous challenge for almost every queer person I've ever known, including myself.

I've spent a long time supporting people who were in the process of coming out to themselves, probably the biggest hurdle they'll ever jump, particularly if they're married to someone of the opposite sex. And for young gay people who are well aware of the potential for violence at home and at school when they come out, you say what? Its not real, you might be straight?

I agree about the spectrum and about the potential for shifts, but I think you also need to respect the lived experiences of gay men and lesbians. For most of us the pressure does come off when we come out. Not the external pressure, but the pressure of having to lie about yourself every time you deny your partner or pretend you are interested in the opposite sex hottie everyone else is talking about, not inviting anyone over to your house without having to de-gay it, staying home rather than going out so that important people don't see you with your partner, avoiding other queers in case someone thinks you might be... etc., etc. Just a few of the strategies I've heard about over the years.

If someone came to me and said they thought they might be gay, I'm not going to take them to a gay bar or a lesbian potluck. I'm going to let them talk to me about what they're actually feeling. Explore a bit what they mean by "gay." I'd be honoured that they felt OK to talk with me because I know how hard that initial contact can be. It took me six months to get out of the library section on homosexuality (I worked in a university) and shaking, to talk to a friend. That was relatively quick, in my experience.

I don't care if people go back and forth. I find it unlikely that I ever will, but then, most of my friends are male, so who knows. More to the point, I'm in a happy, stable, long-term (18 years and still loving it) relationship and I can't see that ending except by the death of one of us some time well into the future.

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Crœsos
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I found it interesting that Mr. Glatze relocated to someplace as gay-unfriendly as Wyoming. As I've observed before the "ex-gay" movement does not seem to have the ability to make gay people straight, just celibate.

An interesting counterpoint to this article, for those with twenty-six minutes to burn, is The "Sissy Boy" Experiment.

Part One [9:01]
Part Two [7:56]
Part Three [8:58]

Short version for those who don't have half an hour: a study was conducted at UCLA to "cure" young boys of effeminate behavior (and keep them from turning gay). The program, conducted by George "Lift My Luggage" Rekers, resulted in a deeply introverted and unhappy individual who eventually committed suicide, though it is still cited as a success by the ex-gay movement and is the basis for some current treatments. (As a crossover, the Dr. Nicolosi mentioned briefly in the article is interviewed in Part Three starting around 2:30.)

From my perspective, any "program" that uses beatings in an attempt to alter someone's underlying psychology is questionable from the start.

There's also a follow up (along the lines of commentary rather than additional information) from the subsequent week.

Part Four [4:28]

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It reminds me of IngoB's faith DNA. It sounds like Michael needs to 1) have an air-tight, rigorous framework to his sexuality and his views on it, 2) he wants to save people from wrong sexuality, and 3) he has to allow no wriggle room for doubts that he is right.

And how would your points 1-3 have anything to do with my "faith DNA" thread, other than in your own prejudices?

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Paddy O'Furniture:
Evensong, what an interesting idea! In my case, I struggled for years with the idea of a Father God. I always wondered why people couldn't picture or relate to a Mother God. When I was trying to be a happy little heterosexual and failing miserably, I thought I was under the wrath of an angry male God. When a friend (a Catholic nun, no less!) told me that it was perfectly all right to picture God as Mother, a lot of my hang-ups and struggles resolved themselves. Now I'm an out and proud lesbian but it's funny... although I mostly imagine and experience God as Mother, I don't consider Her as Lover. Ok, maybe sometimes, but mostly not. Maybe this has not a thing to do with what you all are discussing! It's late, I'm very tired and now I'm going to bed. [Smile]

Thanks for sharing this. Adds to my collection of odd thoughts. [Smile]

So do you have serious issues with your mother? [Biased]


quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Evensong, that bit you quoted is another illustration of what I'm talking about.

Ex-gay groups definitely do hit the 'father issues' button a lot - that was my experience as well.

But who the heck DOESN'T have father issues? The percentage of the population with father issues of some description is massively high, as is the percentage of the male population who struggle in some way with their concept of masculinity. In both cases, way higher than the percentage of homosexuals.

If you ask a homosexual male whether they have father issues, they're going to go "Oh My God Yes, How Did You Know?'. But so what? Where's the correlation?

It's a lot like selling tiger repellent.

Even if you could prove correlation, is the son gay because he had father issues, or are there father issues because the father and son are aware at some level that the son is gay?

Quite right on all of the above orfeo. Everybody has issues with their parents and proving gay people had more serious issues with either parent than heterosexuals would be hard to do.

I've just noticed that quite a few clergy are gay and wonder if:

1) There is a higher percentage of gay people (I'm mainly talking about men actually - I only know of one gay female priest) in clerical office

2) If that has something to do with suppression of sexuality and projection onto a male God.

Re the father issue. I've often heard gay men actually struggle with over dominating, over controlling mothers. But then again, that's just hearsay.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
Aye. Not least when we're in a week where all the CofE Gay Bishop stuff has happened,... and our best compromise is that the 10% of Bishops who are known to be gay either have to hide, or have to repent of all gayness

Ten percent of CofE Bishops are gay?

Is that a higher incidence than the normal populace?

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a theological scrapbook

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Evensong
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I don't want to tangent this thread so I've started another one with clergy issue.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
That said, one has to be skeptical of claims to have changed from gay to straight, simply because there have been so many examples of such claims that turned out to be false.

Okay. But should we not also be sceptical of claims to have changed from straight to gay, for the same reason?

Indeed, should we also not be sceptical of the claims of anyone who says they're straight, even if they have never previously claimed to be gay - on the grounds that some people do indeed "come out" as gay later on in life?

It can be highly traumatic for a previously-thought straight person to come out as gay - but, likewise, it can be highly traumatic for a previously-thought gay person to come out as straight. So I think we should not be sceptical of it - because it's precisely that scepticism that drives people in this situation into the hands of Christian fundamentalists.

Jessie, your points in this post and the previous one are good so far as they go.

I think the main argument against equal treatment of both situations is that the societal pressures tend to be specifically in one direction, not the other. Perhaps there are some situations now where there is pressure to appear gay, but it would still strike me as somewhat unusual. If there's pressure in either direction (and really there shouldn't be in an ideal world), I would still think it far more likely that the pressure is in favour of heterosexuality.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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ADDENDUM: Although I would be more prepared to accept that there might be pressure on bisexuals to 'declare themselves' one way or the other.

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
There seems to be a whole mythology that has grown up around "coming out". It seems to teach that if you're unhappy, it's because you're probably gay, and you're still in the closet. It also acknowledges that coming out is a scary thing to do - much like the quester who goes to slay the big scary monster or dragon that's hiding in the enchanted forest or misty mountains, or whatever - but once you have slain that monster, and established yourself as gay, then the gay community will celebrate you as a hero, and everything will be better.

Trouble is - very often, it doesn't actually work.

But the "coming out" pop myth lives on. Is it any wonder if people who aren't actually gay, but who are merely a bit insecure in the idea that they are straight, end up latching onto the "coming out" myth, in the hope that it might solve their problems?

Are you gay or lesbian yourself? I think you trivialise what is an absolutely enormous challenge for almost every queer person I've ever known, including myself.

I've spent a long time supporting people who were in the process of coming out to themselves, probably the biggest hurdle they'll ever jump, particularly if they're married to someone of the opposite sex. And for young gay people who are well aware of the potential for violence at home and at school when they come out, you say what? Its not real, you might be straight?

If you doggedly insist that absolutely everyone who comes out really is gay, then you can't say that ex-gays were never actually gay to start off with.

However, if you do insist that reparative therapy doesn't work, and that anyone who claims to be straight when they formerly claimed to be gay was never really gay to begin with - then you've got to concede that this means that some of the people who come out as gay must, therefore, be straight.

You can't have it both ways. It's got to be one or the other.

Unless, of course, you concede that queer theory has got some mileage, and that our notions of "sexual orientation" may have some fluidity, and may even be - dare I say it - social constructs.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think the main argument against equal treatment of both situations is that the societal pressures tend to be specifically in one direction, not the other. Perhaps there are some situations now where there is pressure to appear gay, but it would still strike me as somewhat unusual.

Don't you realise what a slippery slope it is to argue in this way, though?

It's all very well to argue that it's unusual for a gay person to turn straight. But then again, you could equally well argue that it's unusual for people to be gay at all.

If you argued that gay people shouldn't be treated equally, simply on the grounds that there aren't that many of them, and that most people are straight - then a lot of people would be horrified. You roll back decades of the gay rights movement with arguments like that.

So why should ex-gays be any different? I'm honestly not seeing it.

The biggest problem with allowing Christian fundamentalists to capitalise on this is that, generally speaking, they're not very sympathetic to the gay movement as a whole.

Personally, I think that the best way would be to let queer theory run its course, in the hope that it might put an end to people thinking about "gay" and "straight" in terms of "them" and "us". But there's a problem, in that it unavoidably trivialises coming-out narratives.

That's why I think that the story-telling tradition that has sprung up out of "coming out" ideology acts in opposition to developments in queer theory.

If you want the "coming out" narrative to continue to be treated as holy, then the "apostate" ex-gays must continue to suffer for it.

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It reminds me of IngoB's faith DNA. It sounds like Michael needs to 1) have an air-tight, rigorous framework to his sexuality and his views on it, 2) he wants to save people from wrong sexuality, and 3) he has to allow no wriggle room for doubts that he is right.

And how would your points 1-3 have anything to do with my "faith DNA" thread, other than in your own prejudices?
[Confused]

Obviously, I've just piddled on your parade somehow.

I thought the "faith DNA" had something to do with certain points of necessity that could be interchangeable between faith frameworks but remain consistent in a person's faith journey. I certainly wasn't comparing Michael's mindset (or "DNA") to your own in any way. You had to spend a lot of time on the thread defending the metaphor against literalness instead of expanding your thoughts on your subject. So quite possibly I missed some key points that you were making.

My comparison of Michael's journey in sexuality with the idea of faith DNA was that in both his gay and straight personas he seems to me to have those philosophical requirements I listed. If my analysis of the things I read in the article seem like "prejudice" to you, I least I put it that "It sounds like Michael needs to..." I'm well aware that no one can have a real understanding of a person's thoughts and experiences from one article. But that's what we have to work with and on which to give opinions.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

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I don't think you read to the end of my post Jessie - the bit where I said I agree there is a spectrum and people go back and forth, and no, it didn't worry me.

However, if one goes to the gay/lesbian end of the spectrum, inevitably, one has to decide whether to come out or not. My observations are simply that it is usually rather better for the individual's mental health if they do. It may solve no other problems in their life, such as not fitting in, or not being able to find a partner. But as EM Forster said (rather paraphrased because its a long time since I read it), "The problem with a secret is that you lose all sense of proportion about it, and it takes over your life."

I watched this with my previous partner. She had never had a male partner. She lived with me. We did lots of things together. People visited us at home. But out in public, she completely ignored me in the hope that everyone would think she was straight. It was the worst kept secret in the art community in our city. And when we broke up, I decided I was never going to let anyone do that to me again.

She still walks six metres in front of her current (female) partner when they go somewhere. People are still gossiping. She's still pretending. If she came out, there would be nothing to gossip about - instead it gets treated like a dirty secret, which is how she viewed it. Her fear ruled the way she lived her life. How is that good for her mental health?

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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Gee D
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Michael seems a very strange person, almost one addicted to proclaiming extreme positions, yet hiding what he actually believes. He learnt the queer jargon and used it; he has now learned the fundamental jargon, and uses that. Is either position Michael? In the joint photo, he seems detached, and it is Ben who looks committed.

He would probably be a real risk in any relationship. His partner would never know what he really felt about anything.

I feel sorry for him in so many ways.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Jessie, I have absolutely no idea how you managed to equate discrimination with scepticism about claims.

They are two utterly different concepts. So no, there isn't the slightest slippery slope involved at all.

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Jessie Phillips
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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
However, if one goes to the gay/lesbian end of the spectrum, inevitably, one has to decide whether to come out or not. My observations are simply that it is usually rather better for the individual's mental health if they do. It may solve no other problems in their life, such as not fitting in, or not being able to find a partner. But as EM Forster said (rather paraphrased because its a long time since I read it), "The problem with a secret is that you lose all sense of proportion about it, and it takes over your life."

Ah, I think you misinterpreted the point I was trying to make then.

My point was not about trying to argue the relative merits of "coming out" on the one hand, versus "staying in the closet" on the other, as if to say that it's sometimes better to stay in.

Rather, my point was that the distinction between "coming out" and "staying in the closet" is often turned into a false dichotomy.

How is it possible to be only "half" out, you might ask? Well, in reality, there are many areas of human activity where your sexual orientation just isn't relevant. For example, if you sit an academic exam, and there's an anonymous marking scheme in place, then the question of whether you're gay or straight really shouldn't make any difference. So it makes no sense to speak of "coming out" in that context either.

However, the popular "coming out" meta-narrative seems to deny this. It assumes that you're either "in" or "out" with the entire community, but fails to specify what this means in practice.

For example, supposing a person goes to gay socials or gay bars - but doesn't tell any of their relatives. The fact that their relatives don't know about it might be regarded by some as meaning that they have not yet "come out" - and to "come out" means to tell your relatives that you're gay.

But what does this mean for an orphan? A person in that situation has no-one to come out to.

Another way of looking at it is that if you're putting in an appearance at gay bars or socials, you're already "out", regardless of what your relatives do or don't know - and that a person who is "in" is someone who harbours homoerotic fantasies but never tells anyone about it at all. Under this sense, an orphan can be thought to have "come out".

There's all sorts of other permutations of what it might mean to be "in" or "out", depending on how many communities and social circles you are a member of, the strength of your commitment to or dependency on any of those circles, and the extent to which they do or don't overlap. Not to mention the question of whether you're in a relationship or not. Is it possible for one half of a couple to be "out" but not the other?

But the popular view of "coming out" as a rite of passage seems to deny all this. It suggests that you're either "in", or you're "out", and that's that. "Coming out" is seen as something that a gay person should only ever have to do once, a bit like the Christian belief that baptism is something you only have to do once.

But in reality, there is no universally recognised "coming out" ceremony, in the way that there are near-universally-recognised marriage and graduation ceremonies. The question of what it means to "come out" depends very much on the social circumstances.

So how do explain that we have a "coming out" meta-narrative at all?

It seems to me that we have a culture in which gay people spin yarns about their experience of coming out - but they spice those yarns up to make them sound more like a hero-quest than they actually are. Occasionally, they even write novels or shoot films about it. This has the effect of making the distinction between being "in the closet" and being "out of the closet" sound bigger than it actually is in reality.

It also has the effect of galvanising people - both gay and straight - into their sense of sexual identity, thereby making the distinction between "gay" and "straight" sound bigger than it actually is.

But the problem is, it's very difficult to acknowledge that, without trivialising people's coming-out stories.

I don't think it would be fair to assume that anyone who has ever spun a half-interesting yarn about coming out must, by virtue of that story, be a smooth-talking con artist. Even if they've embellished that story a bit. Some of these yarns may first have been spun when the story-teller was a patient in a talking therapy setting, as part of a process of addressing the problems for which they were referred to therapy in the first place. Then they simply retell the same stories out of therapy that they first told in therapy.

So even though I'm sceptical of a lot of coming-out yarns, I still think that the associated story-telling culture is valuable, it improves social bonding, and it is therefore worth preserving.

However, in spite of that, I still think it plays a part in exacerbating the plight of ex-gays - but not to the extent that ex-gays wouldn't face any problems if the coming-out story-telling culture didn't exist at all.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Jessie, I have absolutely no idea how you managed to equate discrimination with scepticism about claims.

It's easy. If a person complains that they have been discriminated against on the basis that they are gay, then you can answer it simply by saying that you don't believe that the person who made the complaint really is gay.

Or are you saying that the only people who are capable of discriminating against gays are those who do at least acknowledge the existence of homosexuality?

If we are to admit the possibility that people who don't believe homosexuality exists may be able to discriminate against gay people, then we must also admit the possibility that people who don't believe ex-gays exist may also discriminate against ex-gays.

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
[Confused] Obviously, I've just piddled on your parade somehow.

Sorry, I guess that was knee-jerk reaction. I spent quite some time trying to establish that the "faith DNA" idea is not just another term for "dogmatic intolerance" and is applicable beyond motivating "rule book conformism". It's intended to be widely applicable, e.g., also to apparently "anarchistic" ultra-liberals. And then this sounded like you identified my idea with only the former, again...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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I understand. I rather like the idea of faith DNA. Which is why I borrowed it.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Jessie, I have absolutely no idea how you managed to equate discrimination with scepticism about claims.

It's easy. If a person complains that they have been discriminated against on the basis that they are gay, then you can answer it simply by saying that you don't believe that the person who made the complaint really is gay.

Or are you saying that the only people who are capable of discriminating against gays are those who do at least acknowledge the existence of homosexuality?

If we are to admit the possibility that people who don't believe homosexuality exists may be able to discriminate against gay people, then we must also admit the possibility that people who don't believe ex-gays exist may also discriminate against ex-gays.

That still makes no sense whatsoever, and bears no resemblance to what I said about PROBABILITY, nor is the belief that everybody has the same sexuality (ie heterosexuality) equivalent to the belief that nobody changes their sexuality.

And no, you CAN'T actually discriminate against homosexuals if you don't think they exist. You can still, however, discriminate against people who claim to be homosexual.

But it's on the first point that your logic falls down in a massive heap. Beliefs about people's sexuality and beliefs about people's capacity to change their sexuality are two different concepts. Fusing them together like that just doesn't work.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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And if I'm *sceptical* about the capacity of people to change their sexuality, that might be because I spent 17 years trying to do just that. And it didn't work.

If anyone suggests I simply didn't try hard enough, you'll be able to hear the howls of rage from anywhere on the planet.

[ 24. June 2011, 00:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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Furthermore, if one accepts for the sake of argument that it IS possible to change your sexuality (as distinct from your behaviour), then there is a very nasty question that follows: WHY DO IT? WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?

The only arguments in favour of it I've ever seen are the ones that this man is now espousing. And if he's right, then you are telling me that God cursed me with failure. 17 years of trying to change to be the 'right' sexuality, the last 2 of them in the sort of ex-gay programs that talk the way Michael now does... and failure.

Now, if anyone has any OTHER arguments in favour of changing one's sexuality, I'm all ears. Again, sexuality not behaviour. Because many if not most bisexual people will stick with a partner of a particular gender. And also because I resolved my sexuality, finally, without ever having had sex with anyone. Sexuality is about who attracts you, not who you are bonking at a particular point in time.

[ 24. June 2011, 00:14: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
Aye. Not least when we're in a week where all the CofE Gay Bishop stuff has happened,... and our best compromise is that the 10% of Bishops who are known to be gay either have to hide, or have to repent of all gayness

Ten percent of CofE Bishops are gay?

Is that a higher incidence than the normal populace?

Quite likely. Alfred Kinsey's study in the late 1940s found 10% of men were gay, but his numbers have not generally been revised downward, using what is generally regarded as mor precise methodology.

The numbers vary, but no one that I've ever heard of has duplicated Kinsey's 10% estimate. A UCLA study, for example, found that 3.8% of the total population identified as gay, bisexual, or transgender.

[ 24. June 2011, 06:54: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Perhaps the happy ex-gays were actually bisexual rather than gay? I find it hard to believe that someone entirely homosexual could change so completely.

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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142

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Also because it's possible to love someone very much indeed as a person rather than because they are male or female. Love is as powerful as lust, I'd say, and can achieve the same end results.

Looking through magazines aimed at women, I can happily ignore all the piccies of "hunky blokes with no clothes on tastefully posed" - it's not interesting. But I have to keep me eyes firmly closed if it's piccies of women in very little [Help] . My brain registers women as its object-of-attention, not men. Yet I'm married, most happily and faithfully and wonderfully, to a truly lovely man whom I love with all my heart and thoroughly enjoy all aspects of life with. And who accepts me totally as I am (even in the midst of all this bloomin' business with cancer etc). Do I regret my choice? Not for a second.

I think sexuality is something society tries to compartmentalise for convenience. But a lot of people in the LGBT communities aren't so easily put into 'boxes' or understood in that way.

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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And if I'm *sceptical* about the capacity of people to change their sexuality, that might be because I spent 17 years trying to do just that. And it didn't work.

If anyone suggests I simply didn't try hard enough, you'll be able to hear the howls of rage from anywhere on the planet.

Right. So an African-Carribean black guy who lived in the Southern States finds that he's spent years on the receiving end of racist abuse, he thinks all his problems would go away if he could just be white, but it's impossible. Bleaching his hair, using theatrical make-up, it's all absurd, because it's not going to make any difference, he'll still face racist abuse all the same.

Then, one day, some dude who suffers from albinism comes along. He says he used to be teased in the playground at school about being a "ghost", and one day he hit back, and it all went pear-shaped, and he's been ostracised from the community ever since.

Does the sufferer of albinism deserve all the howls of rage that are directed against him, from the black people who wished that they could be white - not to mention the white people who think they're proving their own anti-racism credentials by siding with the mob?

I don't see how your vitriol against ex-gays for "not being as gay as they should be" is any different to the vitriol directed against albinos for "not being as black as they should be".

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Furthermore, if one accepts for the sake of argument that it IS possible to change your sexuality (as distinct from your behaviour), then there is a very nasty question that follows: WHY DO IT? WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?

You have committed the fallacy of assuming that the people whose sexuality has changed are somehow more in control of their sexuality than those whose sexuality hasn't.

If it was possible to change your sexuality, then there wouldn't be a problem. Ex-gays would be able to change themselves back into gays again, and the problem would be solved.

It's precisely because they can't change themselves back into gays that the problems they face arise in the first place. And, to add insult to injury, it seems that the only people who are prepared to take that seriously, and to provide any support (flawed though it is), are the Christian fundamentalists.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
Right. So an African-Carribean black guy who lived in the Southern States finds that he's spent years on the receiving end of racist abuse, he thinks all his problems would go away if he could just be white, but it's impossible. Bleaching his hair, using theatrical make-up, it's all absurd, because it's not going to make any difference, he'll still face racist abuse all the same.

Then, one day, some dude who suffers from albinism comes along. He says he used to be teased in the playground at school about being a "ghost", and one day he hit back, and it all went pear-shaped, and he's been ostracised from the community ever since.

Does the sufferer of albinism deserve all the howls of rage that are directed against him, from the black people who wished that they could be white - not to mention the white people who think they're proving their own anti-racism credentials by siding with the mob? [/QB]

For the analogy to work, the albino would have to be ex-black. No White claim it's possible to change from black to white or albino. No albinos claim that either. But some heteros do claim it's possible to change from homo to hetero. This analogy is dead out of the gate.

[ 24. June 2011, 17:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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iGeek

Number of the Feast
# 777

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Seems to me that Glatze is tied to certainty. He use to have it in his identity as a gay man. He now has it in his identity as a straight Christian.

Fine. He can stand in his certainty.

He doesn't get to say that it explains things for anybody else but him.

But it's clear that doesn't work for him. To have his certainty, he has to stand in judgment of others.


Phhhht on that.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I don't see how your vitriol against ex-gays for "not being as gay as they should be" is any different to the vitriol directed against albinos for "not being as black as they should be".

As well as seconding mousethief's response, I don't see where you got the idea that I had vitriol against ex-gays for 'not being as gay as they should be' to begin with.

Any harshness in this thread has been directed at (1) people who tell people they OUGHT to become 'ex-gay', and (2) probably you for mounting arguments that make no sense whatsoever.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Put it this way: if there was a person who said that they were gay, didn't have a problem with being gay, but they weren't gay anymore, I doubt that would trouble me.

But that is not this situation. What we have here is the usual: a person who says that they were gay, but (hallelujah!) they've seen the light!

To paint this as equivalent to the reverse move is completly disingenuous. You will not find anyone who says they were straight but (hallelujah!) they've seen the light and become homosexual. Except possibly a particularly fundmanetalist advocate of population control. [Roll Eyes]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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