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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Justice for the 96?
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
So the actual truth about the Hillsborough disaster is out. Finally.
BBC Summary here
Should we be shocked at the lies by our Police force, to cover up their failings?
quote:
From the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report [SYP=South Yorkshire Police]:
They also demonstrate how the SYP Police Federation, supported informally by the SYP chief constable, sought to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on several police officers' allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence among a large number of Liverpool fans. This extended beyond the media to Parliament.
Yet, from the mass of documents, television and CCTV coverage disclosed to the panel there is no evidence to support these allegations other than a few isolated examples of aggressive or verbally abusive behaviour clearly reflecting frustration and desperation.
I know there are some of the Ship who feel very strongly about this issue. I remain very sad at the horrendous loss of life but should I be angry that our government covered up the truth of this situation?
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) [x 96]
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
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Posted
I feel very angry about the cover-up. For 23 years, Liverpool fans have been wrongly blamed for contributing the disaster, if not actually causing it. I am so very glad for the families that the truth has finally come out. It stinks to high Heaven that 41 people could have been saved if the ambulances had been allowed into the ground.
I will hold my hands up and admit that I beleived the Sun's lies when they were first published. However, over the years, I realised they weren't true.I was 23 when Hillsborough happened; I'm 46 now. It's taken half my life for the documents to be made public: that's disgusting.
Today isn't justice for the 96. Today the truth comes out - justice will only come when there is a new inquest and someone is held accountable for what happened.
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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
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Shire Dweller
Shipmate
# 16631
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Posted
God Bless Liverpool
I was eight when it happened so cant remember it and only know it from history.
The disaster was the sum of a range of wrong ideas, situations and attitudes that meant 96 innocent people lost their lives
- Unsafe Pens at 1980's Hillsborough (poor safety was already known)
- Liverpool supporters unjustified post-Heysal disaster reputation as dangerous hooligans
- South Yorkshire Police's views that (i) all football supporters are drunken hooligans (particularly Liverpool) and (ii) 'protecting' themselves was more important than the truth
- Incompetent Stewarding, crowd Co-ordination and medical attention
- Arrogance on the part of the Government at the time, and the press.
Whether this brings 'closure' is for those directly affected to say. I hope it will bring some peace to them.
God Bless Liverpool
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Right around the Wrekin
Posts: 77 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I apologize for jumping on the bandwagon at the time.
Boris Johnson needs to go and PERSONALLY apologise to all concerned.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Caged terraces were a common sight in Britain at that time because of weekly hooligan pitch invasions.
Sale of alcohol had been been banned within football grounds because mis-use was contibuting to hoolignism. Therefore large numbers of, (mainly male), fans would get tanked up in pubs and arrive en mass at the last minute to see the match.
Hillsbourgh was a disaster waiting to happen . Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
OK the Police cover-up was bad . No worse than the MoD covering up Gulf War syndrome . It's what we expect from our institutions.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
I remain very sad at the horrendous loss of life but should I be angry that our government covered up the truth of this situation?
[x 96]
AFZ
Hell, yes! I'm angry about it from the other side of the world, and with no connection to Liverpool. I just cannot understand why institutions stand shoulder-to-shoulder to protect the corrupt, the incompetent, and the stupid in their ranks, when the inevitable result is that they join themselves to the eventual fallout, and thereby tar all the good and conscientious members of their institutions with the same mucky brush. This stinks, and the stink unfortunately spreads far and wide.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Caged terraces were a common sight in Britain at that time because of weekly hooligan pitch invasions.
Sale of alcohol had been been banned within football grounds because mis-use was contibuting to hoolignism. Therefore large numbers of, (mainly male), fans would get tanked up in pubs and arrive en mass at the last minute to see the match.
Hillsbourgh was a disaster waiting to happen . Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
I think it's just as easy to argue that a failure to both prepare and implement adequate emergency management plans, given a foreknown situation which included crowds, drunkenness and restricted egress was the culprit. Imagine if there had been a fire - and this surely was a scenario which had been at least glanced at by someone, sometime - which was not visible to the stewards down by the pitch - would drunkenness and hooliganism have been the cause of the deaths that resulted if that had been the scenario instead?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Hillsbourgh was a disaster waiting to happen . Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) I dare you to come to Liverpool and say that. Prejudice (against football fans, and especially scousers) on the part of the police was far more to blame.
And whatever the (direct or indirect) reasons for the disaster, what is totally inexcusable and must be punished, are the lies and cover-up.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I am not really shocked by the police lies. I have heard about this over the years, as it is common knowledge on Merseyside. What is shocking is that families and others have not been believed but dismissed, and told to shut up.
But it's the story of the 41 who were still alive, that has really shocked me. And outside, row upon row of ambulances stood empty.
I saw a mother on TV who had tracked down the last seven people to see her son alive, way beyond the time of 3.15, and the final woman who saw him, who held him in her arms while he died. With no medically trained people around.
That is beyond negligence.
Fresh inquests are a necessity now.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Because yes, now is exactly the right fucking time to think about allegations of drunkenness.
I'll tell you what we should think about:
quote:
The panel discovered that as many as 41 victims of the disaster on 15 April 1989 might have been saved had the emergency response been better. They also found that 116 of the 164 police statements taken afterwards were doctored to show the police in a better light, and that the South Yorkshire ambulance service had also altered statements to deflect criticism.
From here
Oh, and
quote:
The panel found that the weight placed on alcohol levels was "inappropriate and misleading" and the pattern of alcohol consumption "unremarkable".
The report says blood alcohol levels were taken from survivors for no apparent medical reason and that attempts were made to "impugn the reputation of the deceased" by checking whether they had criminal records.
Bear in mind that blood was taken from six 14 year olds and three 15 year olds to see if any alcohol was there.
Angloid is right.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The real question is simply: can we trust the Police about anything then and anything now? The answer must be no unless corrobative and "unadjusted" evidence is available.
Amended statements are lies in print and perjury in court. No matter who told the police to change the statements, take issue with the people (who like sheep) went along with it and failed to tell the truth as well as actively lying.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Oopss missed edit window - adjusted post.
I'm no football fan - I hate the game - but this whole thing makes me see the red mist. I feel for the families who have waited for justice and who have maligned in the process - multiplying their pain after grief and loss. That alone is desperately wrong.
The real question is simply: can we trust the Police about anything? (then and now) he answer must be no unless corrobative and "unadjusted" evidence is available.
Amended statements are lies in print and perjury in court. No matter who told the police to change the statements, take issue with the people (who like sheep) went along with it and failed to tell the truth, as well as actively lying.
As for the Sun and other newspapers implying that fans abused the dead and dying, it goes to show just how powerful the spin promulgated by the rich and powerful can be. I wonder who the MP concerned was? To be clear - name and shame.
Why, when the answer and evidence has been available in government files for 22 years at least (I'll allow a year to get it together), have successive Governments failed to bring it to light? Everyone here is culpable - and it's such a good reason on its own to kick secrecy laws into touch.
It opens a far bigger can of worms - what other "lies" from our glorious past remain to be exposed? What other foundations rocked? What other public reputations built on spin will be laid bare for the lies they are?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
I don't know much about football but anyone who was a student in Sheffield in the second half of the 80s could tell you how bad the police were. I heard it said on the radio that the police were on a high after the miners strike and saw themselves as untouchable, they certainly acted as if that were true. The fact that they covered up for each other and acted as if they were doing it all in the national interest comes as no real surprise. I don't think there will ever be justice for the 96, after all the police officers involved will all be just about retiring on fat pensions, but I'm glad that some of the truth is finally emerging.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I don't know much about football but anyone who was a student in Sheffield in the second half of the 80s could tell you how bad the police were. I heard it said on the radio that the police were on a high after the miners strike and saw themselves as untouchable, they certainly acted as if that were true. The fact that they covered up for each other and acted as if they were doing it all in the national interest comes as no real surprise. I don't think there will ever be justice for the 96, after all the police officers involved will all be just about retiring on fat pensions, but I'm glad that some of the truth is finally emerging.
Most will be retired or dead themselves - the Police pension scheme is one of the (if not the) most generous of all Uk schemes. 30 years service from the age of 16 is enough to get you a 2/3rds of your final salary pension.
Waiting 23 years means the major players are either untouchable (dead) or retired (so there's no impact on job, pension etc if found culpable). Any prosecution is unlikely:
a) the judiciary will be taking on their own - and they aren't exactly good at that
b) any defendent could argue that they won't get a fair trial given the reports and information in the public doman
c) "not in the public interest" claims by Government - who tbh shoiuld also be in the dock esp one Margaret Thatcher who was aware of all the background but chose to do nothing.
Oh for one great show trial!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think that normally there would not be prosecutions, as usually the police and other elements of the establishment, get away scot-free with stuff like this. But it's possible that the feeling about it is so strong, that the CPS will feel compelled.
Whether or not there might be corporate prosecutions, I don't know.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that normally there would not be prosecutions, as usually the police and other elements of the establishment, get away scot-free with stuff like this. But it's possible that the feeling about it is so strong, that the CPS will feel compelled.
Whether or not there might be corporate prosecutions, I don't know.
Very true - see attached.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson
The perpetrator acquitted despite the evidence. It's not uncommon in cases involving members of the Police nor is the matter of "bent" evidence ever really purused. (Mendes?)
It only encourages more of the same - if only we all behaved the same way and were permitted (perhaps encouraged) to escape the consequences. Rather different for the rioters last year wasn't it? (I'm not condoning that in any way but the knee jerk reaction of the establishment was very obvious in some of the calls for sentencing).
How about the Daily Mail now making an issue of justice for the 96, given their intemperate reporting at the time? Perhaps that's one small route to atonement.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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St. Stephen the Stoned
Shipmate
# 9841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I wonder who the MP concerned was? To be clear - name and shame.
The MP has already been named. Others are also calling for him to be publicly shamed.
He was leader of the Conservative group on Sheffield City Council for many years, and became MP for Sheffield Hallam, (now represented by Nick Clegg) in 1987. I don't know why he was even consulted about the Hillsborough tragedy, as the ground wasn't in his constituency, although he had stood for Sheffield Hillsborough in 1979, losing to Labour's Martin Flannery. He was, however, Sheffield's only Tory MP, the rest being Labour.
So, with the Miners' Strike still fresh in people's minds, I wonder were the authorities more likely to talk to a Conservative MP? Were Labour MPs less willing to engage with those they still saw as “the Enemy”?
It is easier to imagine why someone on the far right of the Conservative Party might wish to denigrate working class Liverpudlians.
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Do you want to see Jesus or don't yer? Well shurrup then!
Posts: 518 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jul 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Stephen the Stoned:
[QUOTE]
So, with the Miners' Strike still fresh in people's minds, I wonder were the authorities more likely to talk to a Conservative MP? Were Labour MPs less willing to engage with those they still saw as “the Enemy”?
It is easier to imagine why someone on the far right of the Conservative Party might wish to denigrate working class Liverpudlians.
The politics of revenge at its worst, then. All because the miners shafted Ted Heath in the 1970's ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There are many terrible stories coming out of it. One is that a few fans made a hole in the fence, and began to drag people out, but were driven back by police with dogs, the police apparently thinking that they were fighting.
Ambulances told to wait outside, as 'the fans were still fighting'.
Some fans asked Grobbelaar to help them, and he asked a policewoman to open a gate in the fence, and she said she couldn't unless her boss said so.
And so on and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Caged terraces were a common sight in Britain at that time because of weekly hooligan pitch invasions.
Sale of alcohol had been been banned within football grounds because mis-use was contibuting to hoolignism. Therefore large numbers of, (mainly male), fans would get tanked up in pubs and arrive en mass at the last minute to see the match.
Hillsbourgh was a disaster waiting to happen . Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
I think it's just as easy to argue that a failure to both prepare and implement adequate emergency management plans, given a foreknown situation which included crowds, drunkenness and restricted egress was the culprit. Imagine if there had been a fire - and this surely was a scenario which had been at least glanced at by someone, sometime - which was not visible to the stewards down by the pitch - would drunkenness and hooliganism have been the cause of the deaths that resulted if that had been the scenario instead?
You might not be surprised to know that just a few years before, 55 had died in a fire at Valley Parade, Bradford City's ground. The stand was primarily wooden and while there was no fence preventing spectators getting onto the pitch, the turnstiles were locked and no staff were available to unlock them, there were fences preventing exit to other parts of the ground and there were no fire extinguishers.
Most football grounds were disaster areas then, but the Great and the Good didn't give a damn about football and football supporters. Things have changed now - they are interested in football, but there's a lot of money in it.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Even more damning is that Hillsborough didn't actually have a safety certificate, which grounds were supposed to have.
Yet the FA awarded the semi-final to Hillsborough. Did anyone check?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
There'd been bother there the previous year when we played Forest as well. Also in 1981 when Spurs played someone, where a crush was only averted due to the ref asking that the gates be opened.
According to the excellent journalist David Conn (from the guardian) "The FA selected Hillsborough for a semi-final without asking a thing about supporters safety. Just about money, and free seats for FA guests".
Note how the FA haven't apologised for their role in this. Graham Kelly was one of those who swallowed the Druckenfeld/Inghram/Thatcher/Mackenzie lies.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
No. It has been clear throughout that multiple complex factors were in play and we now know that any of those factors which painted the police and government in a bad light were deliberately suppressed.
If I *had* to pick one, ultimate, causative factor, I would say that it was the unwillingness of the most senior police officer on the day to acknowledge that pre-match crowd control had failed and, therefore, to ask for kick-off to be delayed.
I think that had a decision been taken to delay kick-off, the pressure outside the stadium would have abated, as fans who were frustrated by the mismanaged queueing systems would have relaxed and people could then have been safely admitted to the areas where there was space.
SY police didn't want to delay kick off because it would be an admission of failure on their part, and because they knew they would look like idiots.
The way that, despite the multiple factors involved, so many lives could have been saved had the police been prepared to say that they were losing control and needed more time, fills me with rage and frustration that we cannot turn back the clock.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Caged terraces were a common sight in Britain at that time because of weekly hooligan pitch invasions.
Sale of alcohol had been been banned within football grounds because mis-use was contibuting to hoolignism. Therefore large numbers of, (mainly male), fans would get tanked up in pubs and arrive en mass at the last minute to see the match.
Hillsbourgh was a disaster waiting to happen . Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
I think it's just as easy to argue that a failure to both prepare and implement adequate emergency management plans, given a foreknown situation which included crowds, drunkenness and restricted egress was the culprit. Imagine if there had been a fire - and this surely was a scenario which had been at least glanced at by someone, sometime - which was not visible to the stewards down by the pitch - would drunkenness and hooliganism have been the cause of the deaths that resulted if that had been the scenario instead?
You might not be surprised to know that just a few years before, 55 had died in a fire at Valley Parade, Bradford City's ground. The stand was primarily wooden and while there was no fence preventing spectators getting onto the pitch, the turnstiles were locked and no staff were available to unlock them, there were fences preventing exit to other parts of the ground and there were no fire extinguishers.
Most football grounds were disaster areas then, but the Great and the Good didn't give a damn about football and football supporters. Things have changed now - they are interested in football, but there's a lot of money in it.
At least BCAFC ownership and management had the grace and humility to acknowledge they were at fault and not to attempt to pass blame onto the victims.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
There'd been bother there the previous year when we played Forest as well. Also in 1981 when Spurs played someone, where a crush was only averted due to the ref asking that the gates be opened.
According to the excellent journalist David Conn (from the guardian) "The FA selected Hillsborough for a semi-final without asking a thing about supporters safety. Just about money, and free seats for FA guests".
Note how the FA haven't apologised for their role in this. Graham Kelly was one of those who swallowed the Druckenfeld/Inghram/Thatcher/Mackenzie lies.
Actually, the FA have apologised.
quote:
"On behalf of the FA... we are deeply sorry this tragedy occurred at a stadium the FA selected...I offer a full and unreserved apology," said FA chairman David Bernstein.
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Hooliganism was the culprit , albeit indirectly.
No. It has been clear throughout that multiple complex factors were in play and we now know that any of those factors which painted the police and government in a bad light were deliberately suppressed.
If I *had* to pick one, ultimate, causative factor, I would say that it was the unwillingness of the most senior police officer on the day to acknowledge that pre-match crowd control had failed and, therefore, to ask for kick-off to be delayed.
<snip>
There was a very experienced match day commander due to take charge, who was replaced at short notice, and no satisfactory explanation for why that happened has been found, according to the press conference that the panel did yesterday.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's interesting how this scandal is being viewed by different political groups. Provisionally, I would say that on the left, people are saying, this is symptomatic, in other words, the police, and other Establishment institutions regularly lie and cover their tracks.
On the right, I think commentators are saying that it is an unfortunate lapse by various authorities, but it is exceptional, and we can continue to trust them.
And I guess, a bunch of people in the middle who sort of saying, well, there are some bad examples of this around, in fact, rather a lot, and we need to make sure they are clean from now on.
I suppose you could also label this the spectrum between cynicism and hope.
I am curious if it has any effect politically; it's possible of course, that it will soon be forgotten.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This.
Of course, he did apologise for that at the time as well. I guess that doesn't count for much in your eyes?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I am not really shocked by the police lies. I have heard about this over the years, as it is common knowledge on Merseyside. What is shocking is that families and others have not been believed but dismissed, and told to shut up.
But it's the story of the 41 who were still alive, that has really shocked me. And outside, row upon row of ambulances stood empty.
Yes.
FWIW, I was sceptical that the report would tell us anything new, because I thought that the negligence of the police was already well-established, including the fact that the police commanders should have been able to see that the pen was overcrowding and act accordingly. And the fans had already been largely exonerated of blame by the Taylor Report.
So I was shocked and angry to hear that there was more to come out. Leaving 41 people to die is something you'd expect of Putin's Russia. In fact if it happened in Russia and was publicised there'd be protests all over the West about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This.
Of course, he did apologise for that at the time as well. I guess that doesn't count for much in your eyes?
The last few paragraphs of Chesterbelloc's link are quite interesting:
quote:
[Simon] Heffer acknowledged his role in the furore in July, writing: "I know a bit about this episode, because I wrote the first draft of the article, at Mr Johnson’s request.
"When I heard the piece ... had created a furore in the city and that Mr Johnson was in trouble with Michael Howard, I offered to ring the then Tory leader and admit responsibility.
Mr Johnson, most creditably I thought, refused to let me do this, saying he was the editor of the magazine, and it was his duty to deal with the matter."
[ 13. September 2012, 14:43: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Some of these apologies ring hollow to me. For over 20 years, some people have been quite happy to say that drunken fans caused the crush at Hillsborough, and have also said that the families should basically shut up and move on.
But now, they are falling over themselves to apologize. If I was a family member linked to the disaster, I would be tempted to say, shove it. Why did you never bother to find out what we were saying all that time? Why did you just accept the misinformation?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This.
Of course, he did apologise for that at the time as well. I guess that doesn't count for much in your eyes?
An apology, often years down the line, is always worth an article that panders to your readership's lowest standards. Editors are like that. We really shouldn't expect anything else.
To accuse an institution of lying and covering its tracks is simply to say it is an institution.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This.
Of course, he did apologise for that at the time as well. I guess that doesn't count for much in your eyes?
I'd have thought that even you, Marvin, would be hard-placed to guess my attitude from a one-word link. As it happens, you guess wrongly.
I linked to that article with the sole intention of furnishing leo with the information he asked for. If the Heffer quote which Ricardus posted is a fair reflection of the affair, I think Johnson comes out of it rather well.
But next time, perhaps I'll just let someone else do the honours.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
Basically the police and emergency services panicked in the face of a mass human castrophy and then lied to cover up their incompetance which resulted in the deaths of the 96 fans.
That it took so long to expose the truth shames us; the tenacity and commitment to justice of the families of the 96 should make us proud.
Posts: 472 | From: The Grim North | Registered: Jul 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Partly panic, but also a very fixed mind-set that the fans were fighting. Thus, when ambulances arrived at the ground, it appears that they were told not to go in, because of fighting.
In fact, if you watch some of the film of the pitch, many fans are desperately rushing across it, carrying injured and dying people on makeshift stretchers.
I suppose the notion of the hooligan was fixed in the minds of police and others.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You might not be surprised to know that just a few years before, 55 had died in a fire at Valley Parade, Bradford City's ground. The stand was primarily wooden and while there was no fence preventing spectators getting onto the pitch, the turnstiles were locked and no staff were available to unlock them, there were fences preventing exit to other parts of the ground and there were no fire extinguishers.
Most football grounds were disaster areas then, but the Great and the Good didn't give a damn about football and football supporters. Things have changed now - they are interested in football, but there's a lot of money in it.
[Tangent] My opinion of St Aldate's Church, Oxford, plummetted to rock bottom when I was at their main Sunday morning service the day after the Bradford City fire. There were lots of prayers about the need for more money for St Aldate's; not a single mention of the victims of the Bradford fire. [/Tangent]
Actually given what it might indicate about the priorities of the comfortable middle classes and their attitude towards football at the time perhaps it's not so much of a tangent.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
[Tangent] My opinion of St Aldate's Church, Oxford, plummetted to rock bottom when I was at their main Sunday morning service the day after the Bradford City fire. There were lots of prayers about the need for more money for St Aldate's; not a single mention of the victims of the Bradford fire. [/Tangent]
Actually given what it might indicate about the priorities of the comfortable middle classes and their attitude towards football at the time perhaps it's not so much of a tangent.
It wasn't just that they were football supporters and working class, but northern too. In the case of Hillsborough, they were not only northern but scousers. More than enough to damn them in the eyes of the establishment and the establishment toadies like the police.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
To accuse an institution of lying and covering its tracks is simply to say it is an institution.
No it isn't, otherwise the institution of marriage is in BIG trouble.
Institutions are just organised ways of doing things by people.
Yes it matters because people saying things like what you said, means that people get rid of the formal forms without thinking what will go in their place. Nine times out of ten what replaces them is worse.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
Well, deliberate tampering with evidence sounds like 'perverting the course of justice to me'.
On the face of it it seems like someone has to be culpable, but we have the previous experience of Brazilian electricians and drunken newspaper sellers, killed with similarly clear evidence, to know that anyone really significant will wriggle out of it.
Hope that facist MP loses his knighthood though.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
At the moment one can hardly move for apologies regarding the outcome of the Hillsborough Independent Panel's report but despite considering referring officers and itself to the IPCC no apology is forthcoming from the South Yorkshire Police. Sir Norman Bettison, the current chief of the West Yorkshire Police and was a chief inspector at Hillsborough, is sticking to his assertion that the behaviour of some fans in the stadium made the job of the police "harder than it needed to be".
If that's the attitude one needs to get on in the police, then things haven't changed.
Jengie Jon: you know very well that marriage may be called an institution, but a comparison between that and instruments of the establishment is absurd.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
The Independent Report of the Hillsborough tragedy is a damming indictment of Police and Press and Sheffield Wed. Football Club itself.
I ask a question which goes behind the whole tragic occurance.
What is is about football supporters which demands segregation at matches and a huge police presence even at local games?
I have often been to Twickenham ( rugby) and Lords (cricket) for national and international matches. Never have I been asked which team I support nor have I ever been coralled into a separate area on the basis of team loyalty.
Football seems to have an ethos in a tribalism and antagonism all of its own. The Independent Report makes much of the distinction between crowd control ( dealing with the hooligan element) and crowd safety. The Police evidently were more concerned with the former.
Its the culture of football which bears the largest blame/responsibility. Evidenced even today in the vile chanting and dubious songs which provide the background noise to every match.
Hillsborough was but the inevitable consequence of a shared culture. 96 deaths is too high a price to pay.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
This.
Of course, he did apologise for that at the time as well. I guess that doesn't count for much in your eyes?
Well, he apologised after realising what a stink it caused, but why the hell say it in the first place?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Just to make it clear, I am not saying hooliganism, (by Liverpool supporters), was the cause of the terrible deaths of those poor people at Hillsborough .
What I'm saying is that years of hooligan culture in this country had set the stage for such a tragedy to unfold. It just happened to be in that place on that particular day .
ISTM the whole chain of events that afternoon, after that one error by that one Copper, revolved around the fact that most , apart from those directly involved, wrongly believed it to be a hooligan incident .
We seem to have short memories as to just how big problem football violence was at that time .
That is why Police thought it would be easy to divert the blame for the Hillsborough tragedy . However they forgot the maxim ---"The Truth will always out" .
Opening the gate was a mistake , covering up the mistake by doctoring evidence was just plain wrong.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
What is is about football supporters which demands segregation at matches and a huge police presence even at local games? [...] Football seems to have an ethos in a tribalism and antagonism all of its own. [...] Its the culture of football which bears the largest blame/responsibility. Evidenced even today in the vile chanting and dubious songs which provide the background noise to every match.
That's pretty much what I would have said in the 1980s and 1990s. My opinion changed for the not-very-good reason that I started actually going to football matches at about the age of fifty, and I found the noise and the shouting and so on to be fun.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The Independent Report of the Hillsborough tragedy is a damming indictment of Police and Press and Sheffield Wed. Football Club itself.
Being a Sheffield Wednesday fan, my natural reaction is to be all defensive about this and say "Unfair! No way! It was the police" etc. I was only 10 at the time and had never been to Hillsborough so I had know knowledge of the ground's state then. It does appear from the reports that it was far from adequate for the semi-final and that the club were more interested in making money from the event than in the proper safety of the fans.
(In fact, Hillsborough still feels in desperate need of updating and it was a bit of a shock that it was chosen to be one of the grounds used had we won the rights to host the World Cup in whenever-it-was.)
The club have put out a statement about it, which seems to boil down to "We're different owners from the last lot; we've been complying with this process (unlike the last lot)". It doesn't entirely convince, but it's also true that this is a very different club from what it was then (or even what it was just a few years ago - there was little love for Wednesday's previous owners from the fans back then). It's interesting that on the club's Facebook page, a lot of Wednesday fans are calling for the West Stand, as it's known now, to be demolished and rebuilt.
I'm not sure if there's a point to all this, other than I have hugely mixed emotions as a fan of the club where all this happened. First and foremost though there's immense sympathy for the loved ones of the 96 and relief that they have the truth - hopefully they will now get justice.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Question to Ken
He enjoys the shouting and the noise. Great.
What about the chanting and the abuse of opposing fans which is part nd parcel f the shouting and the noise.?
The last match I attended was at Highbury when Arsenal played Man U
I was appalled at the viscious chants of Arsenal supporters mocking Man U in the aftermath of the Munich disaster.
And, when the ref gave a penalty against Arsenal I was terrified at the wave of emotional reaction. "Kill the ref" they shouted and I firmly believe that if the could they would.
Never again. It scared me stiff.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Shire Dweller
Shipmate
# 16631
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Posted
There has been an arms race of ever more vicious chanting between Liverpool and Man Utd supporters over their respective tragedies of Hillsborough and Munich.
I am not defending vicious chanting, just pointing out that it is part of the 'letting off steam' and tribalism of Working Class culture where provocation escalates the nastiness.
Football is one of the last bastions of working class male culture. It is not sanitised, it is not 'family-orientated' and it most certainly not politely middle class, regardless of how much money is pumped in or how razz-a-ma-tazz Sky Sports coverage makes it seem
Censoring the chanting would be a sop to polite consciences but in reality be just a different kind of establishment arrogance towards Working class men who because they aren't polite and do chant such nasty things must be re-educated for their edification.
God Bless Liverpool supporters that they don't listen to those who know better than them
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Right around the Wrekin
Posts: 77 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Question to Ken
He enjoys the shouting and the noise. Great.
What about the chanting and the abuse of opposing fans which is part nd parcel f the shouting and the noise.?
The last match I attended was at Highbury when Arsenal played Man U
I was appalled at the viscious chants of Arsenal supporters mocking Man U in the aftermath of the Munich disaster.
And, when the ref gave a penalty against Arsenal I was terrified at the wave of emotional reaction. "Kill the ref" they shouted and I firmly believe that if the could they would.
Never again. It scared me stiff.
If you haven't been before and you don't like football I've no doubt the 'atmosphere' at a football match is pretty intimidating. During the Six Nations Rugby tournament let me assure you that The Milleneum Stadium in Cardiff is a fierce place for rugby matches, and I don't think Murrayfield is a great place to be English either.
Then again, you aren't in any more danger than you would be in a pub, ie it pays to watch what you say, but I doubt you are in much more real danger at football matches. Here are some statistics and what surprised me was that at 71% of international and professional matches in England and Wales here exactly no arrests whatsoever. About 37 million attended football matches and there were just over 3,000 arrests. I reckon you get a higher rate of arrests and violence of all kinds in most towns on a Tuesday afternoon, let alone a Friday or Saturday night.
A lot of lies were peddled about Hillsborough. Plenty of what is at the very best termed disinformation is still spread about football supporters to this day.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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