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Source: (consider it) Thread: MW 2723: St Magnus the Martyr, London
leo
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Nice account but what is a 'cardinal rector?'

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Spike

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Cardinal Rector

(It took me less time to type that into Google than it did to type this reply)

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Callan
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Trust St. Magnus to have one of the few Anglican Cardinals. [Big Grin]

I was amused by the comments about the order of service. Attending St. Magnus, in my lunch hour, back in the early naughties taught me to learn the congregational responses off by heart!

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Bishops Finger
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I went to a lunch-time Ascension Day Sung Mass at St. Magnus (back in the late 70s/early 80s, IIRC), and remember being astounded at the quality of the music - a Mass setting by young Mr. Mozart, no less, sung by a choir of 4 voices!

(There was also a great deal of incense, and a congregation of around 30!).

A beautiful church, well worth a visit at any time.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Uncle Pete

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Is his dress cassock red? [Angel]

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Even more so than I was before

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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A very good report - St. Magnus London Bridge is a church I know well, but I neglect to make a habit of going there.

From the time of Fr. Henry Joy Fynes-Clinton (I name from memory) who was Rector there for many a long year until 1959, the Church has a reputation for being Anglo-Papalist. The present Rector, Fr. Philip Warner, seems to be making the most of his resources in his plans for his church. He seems to value the spirituality of old-fashioned ceremonial and is liable to have the three sacred ministers with the sub-deacon wearing the humeral veil as he holds the paten at High Mass. But I have not been to the church often enough to know how varied he makes his ceremonial.

Fr. Philip Warner took the bold step some years ago of having a ringing peal of 12-bells installed and of course, these things cost money.
The previous ring of 10-bells was destroyed by enemy action in 1940 during WW2 and it has taken 60 years, or so, to have bells reinsted in the tower. I understand that Sunday ringing takes place following the Solemn Mass, to fit in with the band of ringers ringing at another church in the neighbourhood earlier in the morning. As a bellringer myself, I have yet to 'grab' that tower to experience ringing the bells.

[ 28. July 2014, 13:10: Message edited by: Ecclesiastical Flip-flop ]

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Divine Praises
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
A very good report - St. Magnus London Bridge is a church I know well, but I neglect to make a habit of going there.

From the time of Fr. Henry Joy Fynes-Clinton (I name from memory) who was Rector there for many a long year until 1959, the Church has a reputation for being Anglo-Papalist. The present Rector, Fr. Philip Warner, seems to be making the most of his resources in his plans for his church. He seems to value the spirituality of old-fashioned ceremonial and is liable to have the three sacred ministers with the sub-deacon wearing the humeral veil as he holds the paten at High Mass. But I have not been to the church often enough to know how varied he makes his ceremonial.

Fr. Philip Warner took the bold step some years ago of having a ringing peal of 12-bells installed and of course, these things cost money.
The previous ring of 10-bells was destroyed by enemy action in 1940 during WW2 and it has taken 60 years, or so, to have bells reinsted in the tower. I understand that Sunday ringing takes place following the Solemn Mass, to fit in with the band of ringers ringing at another church in the neighbourhood earlier in the morning. As a bellringer myself, I have yet to 'grab' that tower to experience ringing the bells.



[ 29. July 2014, 21:12: Message edited by: Divine Praises ]

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Divine Praises
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
A very good report - St. Magnus London Bridge is a church I know well, but I neglect to make a habit of going there.

From the time of Fr. Henry Joy Fynes-Clinton (I name from memory) who was Rector there for many a long year until 1959, the Church has a reputation for being Anglo-Papalist. The present Rector, Fr. Philip Warner, seems to be making the most of his resources in his plans for his church. He seems to value the spirituality of old-fashioned ceremonial and is liable to have the three sacred ministers with the sub-deacon wearing the humeral veil as he holds the paten at High Mass. But I have not been to the church often enough to know how varied he makes his ceremonial.

Fr. Philip Warner took the bold step some years ago of having a ringing peal of 12-bells installed and of course, these things cost money.
The previous ring of 10-bells was destroyed by enemy action in 1940 during WW2 and it has taken 60 years, or so, to have bells reinsted in the tower. I understand that Sunday ringing takes place following the Solemn Mass, to fit in with the band of ringers ringing at another church in the neighbourhood earlier in the morning. As a bellringer myself, I have yet to 'grab' that tower to experience ringing the bells.

Right, here goes my second attempt to reply [Confused]

Many years ago, there was an anecdote about Father Fynes-Clinton showing a visitor around the church. Arriving at the monument to Myles Coverdale, Father Fynes-Clinton announced to the visitor "We've just had a service in the language out of which he translated the Bible". I hope the account is true.

Another story concerns Father F-C's interest in legal processes and minutiae. During the mid 1920s, he was taken through the ecclesiastical courts by the Protestant Truth Society and was forced to remove many of the ornaments from the church. Undeterred, Father Fynes went to a hardware store and a grocer's shop and bought a number of items.

As a result, when members of the Protestant Truth Society came to the church to ensure that the court's orders had been carried out, they were dismayed to see that the holy water stoups had been removed but had been replaced by jam jars filled with holy water. The magnificent baroque altar candlesticks had gone but, in their place, stood six candlesticks fashioned from dowelling of the kind normally used for broom handles.

The protestants were (understandably) dismayed but they cheered up when Father Fynes told them they could remove the offending items themselves as long as they signed a document attesting to the fact. Once the transaction was completed, Father Fynes then replaced the original items and the whole process had to begin again.

At this point, the irresistible force of the Protestant Truth Society realised it had been overcome by the immovable object that was Father Fynes-Clinton and took its fight elsewhere.

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Albertus
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It sounds like Mr Kensit and Fr F-C were well matched as opponents!
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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The anecdote above about Fr. Fynes-Clinton's encounter with the Protestant Truth Society makes sense and makes interesting reading.

I first became acquainted with St. Magnus' Church in 1960, and so, I just missed Fr. F-C, so it was in the time of Fr. Colin Gill, the Rector who succeeded him that I first became acquainted with that church. Fr. Gill also stayed a great many years and I forget how long he was there, but he was still there when advancing years made him need assistance from a server in climbing up and down the high altar steps.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Bishops Finger
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Dunno why, but I have a picture in my mind of Father Fynes-Clinton disguised as Ronnie Barker and asking for four candles...........

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Albertus
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I think there's a whole thread waiting to be started on disguised religious/ ecclesisatical messages in classic comedy sketches.

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Bishops Finger
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Indeed, but it might well be completely incomprehensible to anyone other than the English.....(having just watched the Four Candles sketch again.....) [Killing me]

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Jel
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My one visit many moons ago (the church being dedicated to the founder of my family) caught Father Warner engaged in loving contemplation of a drawer full of chasubles. I did not return.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by Jel:
My one visit many moons ago (the church being dedicated to the founder of my family) caught Father Warner engaged in loving contemplation of a drawer full of chasubles. I did not return.

Fr. Warner is that sort of person - making the most of his resources, including his ample supply of chasubles and other vestments. He will have six of everything if only one will do! I have already mentioned the ambitious rehang of his ringing peal of bells, embarked upon after many decades, which his predecessors, since Fr. Clynes-Finton's time, had all singularly failed to do - no mean project! This is typical of the man; for the same reason he has made good his bells, he has also made good his supply of vestments.

If you feel that Fr. Warner is not 'your man', then you are entitled to your opinions and you don't have to darken the doors of that church again.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I went to a lunch-time Ascension Day Sung Mass at St. Magnus (back in the late 70s/early 80s, IIRC), and remember being astounded at the quality of the music - a Mass setting by young Mr. Mozart, no less, sung by a choir of 4 voices!

Was he present?

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ExclamationMark
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It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

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Vade Mecum
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

Could it? What better use of money (a fairly paltry sum, even for the lush contents of the vestry at S. MM) is there than the salvation of souls, the revelation of Christ in His Glory, and the feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord? Cheap at twice the price, I should have thought.

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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

There is a good scriptural Apostolic precedent for saying that something expensive, given in honour of Our Lord, could be sold and the money given to the poor. Now what was the chaps name...

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

Could it? What better use of money (a fairly paltry sum, even for the lush contents of the vestry at S. MM) is there than the salvation of souls, the revelation of Christ in His Glory, and the feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord? Cheap at twice the price, I should have thought.
Quite: But, one of that needs special gear
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

There is a good scriptural Apostolic precedent for saying that something expensive, given in honour of Our Lord, could be sold and the money given to the poor. Now what was the chaps name...
And that is prescriptive for all times and circumstances?

The church accounts for 2013 show a total income of £139K and charitable giving of £1.25K (excluding Diocescan Precept). For 2012 income was £125k and giving £2000 with a catering and entertainment bill of £2887. For 2011 charitable giving was £550

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Bishops Finger
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Zappa - I'm not quite that old.....but, given the quality of the singing, I'm sure young Mr. Mozart was present in spirit!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Curiosity killed ...

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Exclamation Mark - to respond to your comments about charitable giving: CofE charitable giving is often off the books. Here the thousands collected for Christian Aid goes straight to Christian Aid without being added into the church accounts. The collection at the Remembrance Service goes straight into collection tins for the Royal British Legion, the collection for Water Aid goes directly to them. It's a huge can of worms that doesn't fairly reflect the giving. There are additional receptacles of squirming objects around charities giving to charities and what the Charity Commission says about that.

[ 06. August 2014, 13:09: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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venbede
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For what it's worth, six chasubles of one colour is likely to be accumulated over some time. And a green chasuble is going to get used thirty odd times in the year on Sundays, apart from weekdays.

Do you wear the same clothes every Sunday, Mark?

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And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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My reference to 6 (as in 6 chasubles) is my arbitrary choice as a number, which does not have to be taken literally. But you know what I mean!

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Do you wear the same clothes every Sunday, Mark?

Yes until they wear out from use then I buy something to replace them.
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Exclamation Mark - to respond to your comments about charitable giving: CofE charitable giving is often off the books. Here the thousands collected for Christian Aid goes straight to Christian Aid without being added into the church accounts. The collection at the Remembrance Service goes straight into collection tins for the Royal British Legion, the collection for Water Aid goes directly to them. It's a huge can of worms that doesn't fairly reflect the giving. There are additional receptacles of squirming objects around charities giving to charities and what the Charity Commission says about that.

Thanks - I wasn't aware of that.

Tbh I am surprised given my understanding of Charity Commission guidelines: our practice here is that everything goes through the books even though the entries will cancel each other out. It also helps to demonstrate that we meet the charitable objectives required by the said Commission.

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Curiosity killed ...

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<tangent continued>Well, it's complicated by the Christian Aid collection here being a joint churches initiative so it's carried out under that umbrella. The main CofE church collects well over half the final take, but is only one of five or six denominations collecting (it's why I used that one as an example).

The last time I was on the PCC we were discussing how to reflect charitable giving correctly so I'm not sure how some of the other collections are now put through.

In addition we had to insist that retirement collections for charities weren't taken at church funerals because the funeral directors blithely organised them for a number of charities which weren't in line with the charitable aims of the church. And charities cannot donate to other charities if those charitable aims are not in alignment. In those cases we asked that the funeral directors arranged the collection somewhere else. </tangent>

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
It's all very puzzling and other worldly compared to us poor old non conformists.

We'd struggle with the morality of having 6 chasubles when the time and money could be put to better use elsewhere.

Could it? What better use of money (a fairly paltry sum, even for the lush contents of the vestry at S. MM) is there than the salvation of souls, the revelation of Christ in His Glory, and the feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord? Cheap at twice the price, I should have thought.
Quite: But, one of that needs special gear
Count this A-C (not that I count as one to everyone here) in on the bafflement. Bling is not a requirement for those things. On the contrary - the salvation of souls happens at a blood-soaked execution at the local rubbish dump. Christ in His Glory is revealed in a dirty stable full of animals and their attendant messes, and on a dusty road to a tired, crying woman. The feeding of the lost with the Body of Our Lord needs only a cup, and a dish, and the promise to feed on Him in our hearts by faith with thanksgiving. Methinks some A-C establishments need a bit more of the dust and dirt of the Incarnation.

EM, I'm sure you're aware, but Anglican monasticism is just as A-C as tat palaces. Simplicity is not just for Nonconformists [Smile]

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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venbede
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Good on you, Jade.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Angloid
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Churches do tend to accumulate tat over the years. Regular audits and clearouts should happen: valuable but rarely used vestments could be sold; others could be given to less well-off churches. But beautiful objects should be cherished and used for the purpose for which they have been designed, and a church like St M the M is going to use them.

I prefer simplicity myself and would probably hate most of their tat, but it is a matter of taste, not morals. There is not only the example of our Lord and the ointment, there is the principle of the state supporting art galleries. Only a thoroughgoing philistine (or a wealthy Tory, which IMHO often amounts to the same thing) would object to that.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]EM, I'm sure you're aware, but Anglican monasticism is just as A-C as tat palaces. Simplicity is not just for Nonconformists [Smile]

No - I'd never make that claim. I find great reverence and space in a simple A-C offering and expression of faith. I can even reconcile the view of the real presence with my non conformist views of the same

IME I've benefitted greatly from retreats etc in the kind of environment you mention. Having seen it in action, I'm surprised like you seem to be too at the explanations so often given for low charitable giving but high expenditure on stuff and maintenance.

Like you .... I see an incarnate God dying on a rubbish heap amongst broken humanity: that's my glimpse of heaven - one who identifies with people like me and who is with people like me

[ 07. August 2014, 05:22: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
<tangent continued>Well, it's complicated by the Christian Aid collection here being a joint churches initiative so it's carried out under that umbrella. The main CofE church collects well over half the final take, but is only one of five or six denominations collecting (it's why I used that one as an example).

The last time I was on the PCC we were discussing how to reflect charitable giving correctly so I'm not sure how some of the other collections are now put through.

In addition we had to insist that retirement collections for charities weren't taken at church funerals because the funeral directors blithely organised them for a number of charities which weren't in line with the charitable aims of the church. And charities cannot donate to other charities if those charitable aims are not in alignment. In those cases we asked that the funeral directors arranged the collection somewhere else. </tangent>

The Christian Aid bit I understand to an extent - but even then I'd put it through the accounts as an extraordinary item with a note appended. Good accounting practice IMO as I can see the possibility of fraud/misreporting if it's all done without going through any books.

I can't quite see how you send the money off to CA given you don't send cash so it must be banked somewhere. It would then show up on a bank statement which would have to be explained if asked by HMRC and CC. If it's there best to record it anyway.

There's always the possibility of "losing" cash if not recorded.

As for recording giving correctly my view has always been that you count, bank and record anything and everything you receive. That's transparent, under control and means you have a trail. It also protects the church against accusations of we put "£200 in the bag for XX Charity but you only banked £100."

The funeral collections bit is easy: if the funeral directors arrange them, then it's their responsibility to collect it, count the cash and send it off. If you're doing that too, I'd stop it pretty sharp if I were you. In any event most FD's I know have some kind of donation box that they leave at the church/crem. That way you're also not obliged to deal with charities you'd rather not deal with ... you may wish to have a policy at PCC level on how you approach this but I'd honestly recommend that you don't deal with any such cash whatever the cause.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Good on you, Jade.

Chucking away your vestments then venbede?
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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
There is not only the example of our Lord and the ointment, there is the principle of the state supporting art galleries. Only a thoroughgoing philistine (or a wealthy Tory, which IMHO often amounts to the same thing) would object to that.

As I said above, is the example of the Lord and the oils to be prescriptive for all time?

The example of art galleries is a helpful one and I see your point. I'd argue though that for galleries supported by the public purse accessibility should be greater, and more should be on display. It should be easy to research and reflect but it's usually so hard if not impossible to get beyond the gallery unless you're part of that world. I object for example paying for galleries when some are funded by endowments and government money.

Like churches sometimes there's a lot of questions to be asked but not so many coherent answers forthcoming.

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

Case in point: Monday's service at Westminster Abbey was wonderful. But it's about as close to everyday life in St Puddles as the moon. It either raises unrealistic expectations of what church might be like or reinforces prejudices about ceremony and pageantry (that's what we do for times of national reflection). It's not everyday life just as a disproportionate amount of money spent on maintaining church ceremonies is not everyday life.

The one argument in favour is I suppose that churches aren't Government bodies and we use our cash as we think fit. Whether it's right to focus on specific things is between us and God. Art Galleries if they use Govt money (aka ours) should be much more accountable.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

I can't quite see how you send the money off to CA given you don't send cash so it must be banked somewhere. It would then show up on a bank statement which would have to be explained if asked by HMRC and CC. If it's there best to record it anyway.

Money raised for CA week in all the local churches here is counted and verified in each church and then paid directly (in cash) into a special "local area" CA account. The CA treasurer then sends a sheet to all the churches showing all the payments made. We append a note in our annual financial report, for the benefit of the Charity Commission; I presume other churches do the same. So it never goes through the individual churches' books, but there is a strict checking procedure.

Money we raise for CA at other times (and for other charities) does go through our church books in the way you describe, and then sent off by us to CA but not via the "local area" account.

[ 07. August 2014, 05:56: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

I can't quite see how you send the money off to CA given you don't send cash so it must be banked somewhere. It would then show up on a bank statement which would have to be explained if asked by HMRC and CC. If it's there best to record it anyway.

Money raised for CA week in all the local churches here is counted and verified in each church and then paid directly (in cash) into a special "local area" CA account. The CA treasurer then sends a sheet to all the churches showing all the payments made. We append a note in our annual financial report, for the benefit of the Charity Commission; I presume other churches do the same. So it never goes through the individual churches' books, but there is a strict checking procedure.

Money we raise for CA at other times (and for other charities) does go through our church books in the way you describe, and then sent off by us to CA but not via the "local area" account.

Looks good to me BT and would satisfy the small bit of me that is still finance! You're doubly correct there IMHO - accounted and noted individually to support the accounted and noted communal group.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

The answer is that it depends on the people, but you know that.

The one thing I wouldn't do is dress down when you leave the building. If you "do" tat, and you have an outdoor sunrise service for Easter, or a procession through the town, a service in your local park or whatever, take your tat with you. Don't dress in mufti just because you're going out in public - that's as fake as the kind of people who put on jeans to go and work at the homeless shelter because they think that will make the homeless people feel more comfortable.

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*Leon*
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

The church accounts for 2013 show a total income of £139K and charitable giving of £1.25K (excluding Diocescan Precept). For 2012 income was £125k and giving £2000 with a catering and entertainment bill of £2887. For 2011 charitable giving was £550

To continue this tangent, I spent about 10 seconds googling but couldn't find the accounts. I'd be interested to know where the income comes from.

The charitable giving in those accounts is on the low side for an average anglican church (By this I mean the charitable giving that I'd expect to show up in the accounts, which, as noted, tends to exclude major items like Christian Aid). However, I suspect this church isn't average, and may have quite unusual sources of income. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of its money comes from charities (including livery companies). Presumably a livery company would want to make its own decisions about charitable giving to help the poor, so would expect any money given to a church to be spent on worship, music and so on.

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*Leon*
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quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

The church accounts for 2013 show a total income of £139K and charitable giving of £1.25K (excluding Diocescan Precept). For 2012 income was £125k and giving £2000 with a catering and entertainment bill of £2887. For 2011 charitable giving was £550

To continue this tangent, I spent about 10 seconds googling but couldn't find the accounts. I'd be interested to know where the income comes from.

The charitable giving in those accounts is on the low side for an average anglican church (By this I mean the charitable giving that I'd expect to show up in the accounts, which, as noted, tends to exclude major items like Christian Aid). However, I suspect this church isn't average, and may have quite unusual sources of income. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of its money comes from charities (including livery companies). Presumably a livery company would want to make its own decisions about charitable giving to help the poor, so would expect any money given to a church to be spent on worship, music and so on.

And I've since found the accounts and my guess was wrong. The accounts look like a typical parish church.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

Speaking for myself, I was drawn to the Gospel by the experience of worshipping in a MOTR village church at early communion, celebrated with formality, dignity but minimal 'tat' (simple eucharistic vestments and one server). That experience of God's presence has stayed with me for over 50 years (most of them in ordained ministry). I recognise that most people don't have that experience, or if they did would react differently, and that evangelism needs to take many different forms. But traditional liturgical worship still attracts many.

Having said that, the point of worship, and 'tat', is to honour and worship God. And if we do this without self-consciously looking over our shoulders at who if any is being attracted to it, then it is more, not less, likely to have evangelistic power.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]EM, I'm sure you're aware, but Anglican monasticism is just as A-C as tat palaces. Simplicity is not just for Nonconformists [Smile]

No - I'd never make that claim. I find great reverence and space in a simple A-C offering and expression of faith. I can even reconcile the view of the real presence with my non conformist views of the same

IME I've benefitted greatly from retreats etc in the kind of environment you mention. Having seen it in action, I'm surprised like you seem to be too at the explanations so often given for low charitable giving but high expenditure on stuff and maintenance.

Like you .... I see an incarnate God dying on a rubbish heap amongst broken humanity: that's my glimpse of heaven - one who identifies with people like me and who is with people like me

Oh I wasn't thinking of retreats at all - just straight-up convents. Many do have room for hospitality, but all the money goes back into the convent.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

In terms of church tat - what is likely to draw people to the gospel? is it the "right" way of doing things inside a building with all the supporting cast or is it doing things in the open outside the same building amongst ordinary people?

Speaking for myself, I was drawn to the Gospel by the experience of worshipping in a MOTR village church at early communion, celebrated with formality, dignity but minimal 'tat' (simple eucharistic vestments and one server). That experience of God's presence has stayed with me for over 50 years (most of them in ordained ministry). I recognise that most people don't have that experience, or if they did would react differently, and that evangelism needs to take many different forms. But traditional liturgical worship still attracts many.

Having said that, the point of worship, and 'tat', is to honour and worship God. And if we do this without self-consciously looking over our shoulders at who if any is being attracted to it, then it is more, not less, likely to have evangelistic power.

I didn't have the same experience re being drawn to the Gospel, though I have no problem whatsoever with tat. I like tat, to some degree. I just don't like it when it becomes the focus or is seen as absolutely necessary. IMO the benefit of tat comes when it's seen as an extra - to me, symbolising the extravagance and unnecessary-ness of grace.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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3rdFooter
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I must speak in my friend Fr Philip's defence.

It is quite possible that there are 6 chasubles (with matching dalmatics and tunicles) for some seasonal colours (probably rose). However, one of his congregation is particularly talented at repairing and restoring tat that has become, well, tatty and been discarded from elsewhere. I strongly suspect that much of the tat cupboard is of a certain age.

He also has a considerable mission to part of the the flock who are ostracised at the other end of Grace Church Street.If that is aided by tat, so be it.

3F (formally of the PCC of Ct Clement and St Lawrence, East Cheap)

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
I must speak in my friend Fr Philip's defence.

It is quite possible that there are 6 chasubles (with matching dalmatics and tunicles) for some seasonal colours (probably rose). However, one of his congregation is particularly talented at repairing and restoring tat that has become, well, tatty and been discarded from elsewhere. I strongly suspect that much of the tat cupboard is of a certain age.

He also has a considerable mission to part of the the flock who are ostracised at the other end of Grace Church Street.If that is aided by tat, so be it.

3F (formally of the PCC of Ct Clement and St Lawrence, East Cheap)

As far as I am concerned, my comments were intended as fact and no more, with no criticism implied nor intended. If other posters meant their comments adversely, then that is up to them. As I said '6' was my arbitrary choice of a number in referring to vestments including chasubles.

I do go to St. Magnus' from time to time and I feel quite at home there. If I neglect to go along, then it is just the way things work out.

As a bellringer, as I say, I have yet to 'grab' the tower. There was a bellringers' practice announced a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately, I had something else on and I couldn't make it.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Case in point: Monday's service at Westminster Abbey was wonderful. But it's about as close to everyday life in St Puddles as the moon. It either raises unrealistic expectations of what church might be like

The ceremonial was very simple - MOTR+ - one crucifer, two acolytes.

Many parish churches offer than every week.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
He will have six of everything if only one will do!

You often need 6 chasubles for concelebrations.

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
He will have six of everything if only one will do!

You often need 6 chasubles for concelebrations.
Very true, but it doesn't have to stop at 6.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
He will have six of everything if only one will do!

You often need 6 chasubles for concelebrations.
Not so much at S. Magnus, I suspect.
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ChippedChalice
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Personally, I've always hoped that St. Magnus had 365 chasubles, so there would be no danger of a repeat throughout the year.

But shouldn't we file all of the tsk-tsking firmly in the Dead Horse category? No one's mind is going to be changed, and these arguments have been done to death since Archbishop Laud had his head chopped off.

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