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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How did your Christian friends react?
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
How did your Christian / church friends react to your loss of faith / leaving the church?
Did they react with horror and discontinue the friendship, or did they accept it and you are still friends?
Most of my Christian / church friends dumped me. I only have 2 Christian friends left IRL, and it is interesting that both of these are on the fringes of the church. They accept me as I am.
How was it for you?
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
Most of my Christian / church friends dumped me.
Are these people that you met through Church, or people that you met through another avenue that just happen to be Christian? Did they shun you because they didn't want to be contaminated by your new lack of faith, or just drift off?
(I used to know a group of people through a particular shared hobby. I gave up the hobby through lack of time, and now don't really see them. Partly, I think, this is because we used to arrange to do things together whilst engaged in said hobby. I assume that those arrangements still happen, but I'm not there.
On the few occasions we still met up as we were drifting apart, I found we had less to talk about - much of our prior conversation had revolved around the hobby in question, in which I no longer had such a stake.)
It sounds like what you're describing is a more deliberate shunning, though.
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TallPoppy
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# 16294
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Posted
Interestingly, this hasn't really been an issue for me.
Being a science writer, I have to be honest and say that my science friends were largely atheists anyway, and actively hostile to organised religion.
My main professional contact is an observant Jew, and two of my closest friends are either anti-religious or just neutral/secular. The same applies to my son, sister and other half.
On my bipolar forum, it is strictly forbidden to discuss religion, as part of the forum rules, so the matter has never arisen there either.
It sounds as though I have had an easy ride, as I think I have. I am very very sorry to hear Potoroo that your experience has been otherwise.
TallPoppy
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Papaver exaltatum
"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
Thank you, TallPoppy. I am glad that this hasn't been an issue for you!
Leorning Cniht, it wasn't just shunning, it was dumping. I managed to ask one of them why, and they said they couldn't handle me not being a Christian any more, that it was wrong. The rest I just never heard from again, despite many communication efforts on my part.
To answer your question, these people were Christians I had been through a lot with, close friends from church and Bible College. They didn't just drift off.
I recognise that it is confronting to Christians when someone falls away. But it is not loving to just dump said person. A more loving response would have been to say, "I acknowledge that through your pain you have decided to reject Christianity / the church. However, I am finding this hard to cope with as it frightens me [or whatever]. I am sorry that I am not a strong enough person to be there for you despite this. I wish you all the best in life."
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
Or perhaps a more honest response would have been, "I recognise that you have fallen away. But because I am a judgemental sh*thead who doesn't actually love others as myself, despite professing to, I am going to dump you forthwith."
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Paul.
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# 37
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Posted
They didn't dump me straight away. Partly that was because I still lived in a shared house with others from my old church. I did, initially, get a lot of conversations trying to convince me to come back. And the ones I remember had a tone like I was a naughty schoolboy and I needed to own up and admit I was wrong. And yes, at times I definitely got the feeling some people felt threatened like, "but Paul was so involved, if he could fall away..."
But after a few months nearly everyone dropped me. It was a shock. I knew not everyone I hung out with was my bestest pal but I hadn't thought that nearly all of them were just acquaintances. I think part of it was that it was just so easy to interact with the people that you see naturally anyway. So if you go to church twice on sunday and to a mid-week home group then you spend a lot of time with other church people. And it extends to socialising. When you think of inviting someone over for a meal, or to go out with someone to the pub or a movie then there's this pool of people you're seeing regularly anyway, are friendly and comfortable with. And if the meal in question is sunday lunch then what's easier than people who are in sync with your schedule because they're at the same service as you?
So there's just enough inertia that it makes it a little easier to not go out of your way to meet up with the no-longer attending church person. And that's before you have to deal with the awkwardness. So I get why it can happen.
But it was still a shock and it still hurt.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm an outsider to this discussion, but ISTM that Christian friendships are partly predicated on a shared worldview and spiritual goals. Remove the worldview and goals and what you have in common is perhaps a few hobbies, probably social class, and friendly conversations that have to be more guarded because you don't share the same references or personal convictions any more.
It must be easier for someone who's a mainstream Christian rather than an evangelical. The former just tend to drift away from church. They're probably less likely to be drawn into conversations about what they do or don't believe, since this is often deemed to be a private mater. And they probably have more non-Christian friends anyway.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Maybe not entirely an outsider, as I did hang out at a youthful evangelical church for a while. When it was decided, fairly mutually, that I wasn't heading in the hoped-for direction, the cosiness and get-togethers disappeared. I never met up with any of those people again. I hadn't grown close enough to them to become a bosom buddy, though.
I'm still a Christian, but no longer a member of the mainstream denomination to which I belonged. It does feel a bit awkward when I meet some of the members of my old church (which has closed), but I find that the older members are the friendliest. Old people in such churches are used to young people leaving, so they don't make such a fuss about it. To put it bluntly, I also think they're more in need of your friendship than younger Christians would be, so they're less likely to reject you.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The immediate "We haven't seen you for ages" guilt trip reaction as the first thing most church goers say when you bump into them in the street? Followed sometimes by the slightly more honest "Why don't you go to church any more?" But then again, these same people would have asked, "Are you going to be at x?" when I was going, meaning helping run x.
But actually, socialising with the local congregation when I was a part of the church? Not so much. It usually felt as if I was there on sufferance anyway - definitely uninvited from Lent and other study groups, not invited to much of the socialising, only there if I was offering services or there as part of a paid fundraising event.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
I hate that so many of us are dropped by other people when we are no longer able to conform to their norms.I can't understand why someone who is a friend can no longer be counted as such which is why I am still in touch with those who have left.
ISTM that it isn't only when you leave church/ give up faith.
I faced the same thing when I left one church to return to my spiritual roots in the catholic tradition. So many people who I had counted as friends dropped me completely- I was shocked to be honest.
A few have remained as friends but they mostly still try to persuade me to "return".
Hey ho!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680
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Posted
I only had one or two friends at church and they have pretty much severed all contact since I stopped going. My other friends have not even mentioned the fact I am no longer Christian. It was nowhere as big a deal as rejecting Catholicism in favour of Anglicanism when I was at school. That caused me a lot of grief.
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I hate that so many of us are dropped by other people when we are no longer able to conform to their norms.I can't understand why someone who is a friend can no longer be counted as such which is why I am still in touch with those who have left.
ISTM that it isn't only when you leave church/ give up faith.
I faced the same thing when I left one church to return to my spiritual roots in the catholic tradition. So many people who I had counted as friends dropped me completely- I was shocked to be honest.
I wasn't going to post on this board, as I haven't ceased to be a Christian, but I thought I'd add my own experience to this--I've had the same sort of reaction from coming out as gay (and being OK with it, I mean), and/or from--yes, really--coming out as politically liberal. I have lost a huge swath of old friends, or people I thought were old friends, mainly from churches and college youth groups and chapels, without a word, without response, just... dropping me, in exactly the same way. They probably, in various cases, see me as having ceased to hold the Christian faith. In some cases, some of the more Fundamentalist ones may look at my being on the more Catholic end of the spectrum that way too.
It hurts. It saddens me. I kind of wish that some of them would have pestered me to "come back to (their idea of) Jesus," as at least that would show they cared, but they've more or less just stopped talking to me without explanation, and I've had to guess why.
I relate. Hugs to all here going through this.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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TallPoppy
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# 16294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Potoroo:
Or perhaps a more honest response would have been, "I recognise that you have fallen away. But because I am a judgemental sh*thead who doesn't actually love others as myself, despite professing to, I am going to dump you forthwith."
You sound very angry Potoroo, and I can quite understand why. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
TallPoppy
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Papaver exaltatum
"Love comforteth like sunshine after rain"
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
On the plus side, if your evangelical friends ignore you at least you won't have to put up with their attempts to get you to re-convert. Many ex-Christians seem to resent that.
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TallPoppy:
You sound very angry Potoroo, and I can quite understand why.
You're right, TallPoppy - I shocked myself a little, even though it was tongue-in-cheek, as I thought I had got over a lot of the anger.
ChastMastr, I am sad and on your behalf, though.
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
And yes, Svitlana, what you say is true. I have since asked myself, would I have wanted those old Christian friends in my new life anyway, if they were capable of that?
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
I hope it's OK giving a perspective from the other side.
In the 1970s I belonged to a group that called itself the House of Freedom. Perhaps we could be described as liberal evangelical. Most of the members are no longer practising Christians. I wasn't for 30 years. A few wanted a complete break from that time, but on the whole we are still friends, go to parties and entertainment together, stay with each other, support each other, go to our (few so far) funerals, and even holiday with some. Theological discussions are rare.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
The irony is that the 'friendliest' churches are often those that are the most committed to evangelical doctrines. So people are more likely to join such churches; but when they lose their faith, the doctrines get in the way of those friendships continuing.
I also understand that evangelical churches have to deal with a high level of turnover, so perhaps there's simply less energy to expend on socialising with people who've consciously rejected the faith; that time has to go towards attracting and nurturing newcomers?
And ISTM that the best Christian friends an ex-believer can have are probably from less dogmatic churches. But not enough people join such churches in the first place!
[ 10. December 2014, 13:58: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
Firstly I feel the need to refute that I ‘lost’ faith. No, I made a deliberate decision to reject the concept of GOD (long after I had decided, whilst remaining in it and trying to do something about it, that there was little hope for the church).
Having got that off my chest ….
One sadness I have is to do with those old friends from my fundamentalist background years ago who want to convert me back but I now see that as their problem rather than mine, hoping that this is not too selfish, and we rarely meet due to geographical distance.
However, more than this sadness, is that few people from my more recent (liberal) past seem to be willing to want to have a discussion about why I have rejected faith. I don’t think it is disinterest, rather embarrassment. And that is two way. My biggest challenge, after several years of having no belief in GOD, is in meeting Christian friends on their home ground – the church building. Mrs Wuntoo is still very much involved so I find myself on the church premises fairly frequently, acting as taxi driver or whatever. I also have played the organ for some few services (special events) as they have no-one else and I strongly believe in the value of enjoying doing things together. My embarrassment is about believing that what is said ‘at the front of the church’ no longer makes sense to me but not feeling able to say this for fear of hurting people (and, perhaps, of being seen to be proselytising for atheism!).
To be fair, I rarely initiate discussion of the issue of my rejection of faith, but I am slowly telling them, not least because I am no longer ‘around’ in the same way and some people ask ‘why?’. I began my ‘coming-out’ by making my position clear to one or two members of the church who were in informal leadership positions – assuming, rightly I think, that the word would get around.
Having been their minister before I retired … probably enough said! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) it must be very difficult for them. But I’d like an opportunity to chat it over – to hear that they are at least interested in why I am where I am today. And to have an opportunity to assure them that my preaching was always sincere – my rejection came later. And, perhaps, also to explain that I am not an atheist, rather a non-theist who understands the value of people meeting together and enjoying themselves.
I sometimes long to be able to chat with someone who has been through similar experiences to myself, someone who would understand and help me to grow in my new lifestyle.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Potoroo
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# 13466
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I sometimes long to be able to chat with someone who has been through similar experiences to myself, someone who would understand and help me to grow in my new lifestyle.
It seems to me that this Faithfree board is exactly the place to do that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Thanks to SC!
And in my OP I used the term "loss of faith" as being the simplest way to describe complex things. I recognise that for each person the situation is different. For instance, I still think God is there but have deliberately chosen not to follow him any more. I have definitely lost faith in his goodness, but I am not an atheist. But I don't identify as a Christian any more, either.
[ 10. December 2014, 19:57: Message edited by: Potoroo ]
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Gilbert's Potoroo is Australia's most endangered animal.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mark Wuntoo: However, more than this sadness, is that few people from my more recent (liberal) past seem to be willing to want to have a discussion about why I have rejected faith.
Out of interest, why would you want to have this discussion with them, and what would you want to get out of such a discussion?
[ 10. December 2014, 20:09: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mark Wuntoo: However, more than this sadness, is that few people from my more recent (liberal) past seem to be willing to want to have a discussion about why I have rejected faith.
Out of interest, why would you want to have this discussion with them, and what would you want to get out of such a discussion?
It would help me to grow, I think, to walk further on my pilgrimage.
It would also give me a sense of self-worth - that someone cared enough about me as a person to want to hear something of my journey.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
The minister at my old church started a group called Heretics Anonymous. This was a safe space for people whose faith was very unorthodox and wanted somewhere to discuss that. The meetings have taken off and now Christians from a wide area get together to discuss these issues.
I don't know if there are non-churchgoers and non-Christians who go, but I think it's likely. (I don't go, but I did turn up occasionally in the early days.) I mention it, because something like a HA meeting might be a forum for an ex-minister to discuss how he came to reject Christianity, perhaps in the format of an interview.
For a group of Christians who've never had any experience of discussing challenging theological issues, though, it probably wouldn't have much appeal. Mainstream Christians don't normally want to pry into other people's spiritual lives anyway. Just live and let live.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Mainstream Christians don't normally want to pry into other people's spiritual lives anyway. Just live and let live.
FYI, to anyone who is near London England, The Moot community does Serum discussions which are similar.
It sometimes seems to me that the only people prepared to discuss spiritual matters are those who reject orthodox faith. Mainstream Christians don't want to discuss their faith, never mind other peoples. That seems to be bordering on the absurd - if they actually believe what they claim, surely they should be delighted to discuss it?
But I have found the same as you - they would rather just do it than engage with it. What a judgement on their state of faith?
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Bob Two-Owls
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# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The minister at my old church started a group called Heretics Anonymous. This was a safe space for people whose faith was very unorthodox and wanted somewhere to discuss that. The meetings have taken off and now Christians from a wide area get together to discuss these issues.
That is such a fantastic idea, I would have loved something like that around here a few years ago. As I have often said on the ship, I don't think that the Church (any Church) likes theology or thinking about faith much. When I was an Anglican I learned more about Uganda than Christianity.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mark Wuntoo: It would help me to grow, I think, to walk further on my pilgrimage.
I identify as a 'liberal' Christian (I would use other words myself) but it comes as a bit of a surprise to me that something is expected of us (other than not dropping you). You seem to desire a more active role from us during this process.
I respect everyone's journey and I'd be happy to lend a helping hand, but on the other side I'd also feel that you'd be losing something beautiful (I'm not trying to proselytise here). I don't know exactly how I'd feel to accompany someone on such a journey. It's an interesting question.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think what is asked often is to be prepared to talk about "spiritual" matters - in a very broad sense - without making the Christian answer the default starting point, and trying to convince people to that position. Where can you discuss "what is the point of life", for example, as a genuine discussion, not as a "we have the answers", which so many churches seem to start from.
It means an openness from Christians/church people to find that their answers don't work, that the point they thought they had doesn't answer their own questions. It is scary and dangerous, but I actually thought a search for spiritual truth was what the church was supposed to be for.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
Heretics Anonymous - I like it, a lot. A safe place but a place to grow, I think.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
Wouldn't HA be a place for penitents? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) It is pretty well known in our congregation that I am a liberal. It just is not known exactly how liberal. Spong, anyone?
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
But I have found the same as you - they would rather just do it than engage with it. What a judgement on their state of faith?
Not sure that that follows. I love my wife and children, but I have no particular interest in sitting around discussing why. I don't think that has any bearing on the quality of my love for them.
quote:
It means an openness from Christians/church people to find that their answers don't work, that the point they thought they had doesn't answer their own questions.
I don't think it's necessary for everybody to do all the thinking. Consider, for example, the origins of the universe. I imagine most people accept the scientific consensus that the universe in which we live began in something like a big bang about 13.8 billion years ago and so on and so forth. I don't imagine that most people could detail all the evidence that supports this model, or the arguments that rule out alternative explanations.
And I think that's OK. We don't all have to be cosmologists, and I don't think we all have to be theologians and philosophers either.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think what is asked often is to be prepared to talk about "spiritual" matters - in a very broad sense - without making the Christian answer the default starting point, and trying to convince people to that position. Where can you discuss "what is the point of life", for example, as a genuine discussion, not as a "we have the answers", which so many churches seem to start from.
To be fair, this isn't necessarily what the church is called to offer. It could just as easily be provided by a non-confessional philosophy discussion group. There's such a group in my area. I think they meet once a month at a community centre and discuss a different philosophical text each time. Presumably anyone with a couple of interested friends could start such a group in their area.
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