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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bill Cosby
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
For those who don't know, the American comedian and actor, Bill Cosby, has been all over the news lately, mainly due to two things: First, a comedian named Hannibal Buress called him out in his stand up routine, calling Cosby a smug old man who talks down to black people "because he had a sit-com in the 80's" and then saying basically, who is he to lecture anyone since "he's a rapist."
This routine went viral, prompting the second media event, an article by Barabara Bowman, a woman who had said, years ago, that Cosby raped her. She repeated her allegations and asked the question that keeps me thinking about this:
"Why didn't anyone believe me, before this (male)comedian's accusation?"
So I ask myself, why didn't/don't I believe her?
First, the comdeian had no influence on me other than dislike for him personally. Cosby has been a teacher all his life, before, during and after his entertainment career. His famous lecture directed toward young black people to, "pull up their pants," get an education, quit whining, etc. was typical of teachers and coaches across the board. They have always rallied all of us to step up to the plate and demand more of ourselves. He was not talking down to anyone but asking them to reach their full potential. It was a pep talk to the team.
As for calling him just "a guy who had a sit-com", how disrespectful of a trail blazer who did immeasurable good toward race relations in America. Does this guy call Oprah just some woman who used to have a talk show? His wholesome approachable image went a long way toward easing feelings, on both sides, that we were all so very different from each other.
I didn't watch Cosby's sit-com, (my father loved it) but he was influencing me as far back as the 1960's. His comedy album, "My Brother Russell, Who I Slept With," hit such a nerve of recognition with baby boomers who had siblings, strict fathers and even stricter mothers, that we memorized the thing. My husband and I still look at unexplained messes in the house and say, "The man came in." We loved Bill Cosby as much as we can love someone we never actually met. Stand-up comedy isn't as removed from the real person as acting or singing, they put some of themselves into every word they write.
So, in answer to Barbara Bowman's question of why we didn't believe her. Well, lacking any forensic evidence, it's her word against his and we don't "know," her as well as we think we know him.
Here's the big However. There are presently 14 women alleging the same scenario of drugged drinks and rape. Are they all just looking for money or attention? Hard to believe; almost as hard to believe as the accusations themselves.
Thoughts?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
We loved Bill Cosby as much as we can love someone we never actually met.
I think that's the heart of it. When we love people, it's incredibly hard to believe that they could deliberately do harm to others.
Also, perhaps it's easier to wholly believe in people we love from afar. We simply don't see their small actions which are hurtful, cruel, or selfish, in the way we see the small actions of the people who we love and live closely alongside.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
It is, in my opinion, far more believable that this is true, than that a group of 14 women picked Bill Cosby, America's Dad, to be their mark for a huge scam. There are so many more people who would be A) more believable as serial rapists and B) have more money and a higher profile.
I find it worrying that there is an immediate tendency not to believe these accusations. Few people want to be publicly identified as a victim. Few want to admit that they never reported a criminal because they wanted a career in Hollywood more than they wanted justice at the time. It never makes the accuser look good - ever.
As an aside I saw Hannibal Burress do stand-up in London a few years ago and it was one of the funniest shows I've seen. Good on him for calling Cosby out.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
We loved Bill Cosby as much as we can love someone we never actually met.
I think that's the heart of it. When we love people, it's incredibly hard to believe that they could deliberately do harm to others.
Also, perhaps it's easier to wholly believe in people we love from afar. We simply don't see their small actions which are hurtful, cruel, or selfish, in the way we see the small actions of the people who we love and live closely alongside.
Spot on. I think it has something to do with our tendency toward celebrity worship and hagiography as well. All of that I think gets mixed up with America's sad history of race. Cosby in particular seems to represent for Americans the desire to skip ahead to the good part-- to be a "post-racial America" without the painful work of addressing our racial past or present.
Living in LaLa Land, I have heard these allegations for decades, including a somewhat parallel story from a friend in the industry. Not enough to convict a man, even in the court of public opinion, but enough to raise questions and confirm that these women deserve a hearing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Two words from the UK - Jimmy Savile.
Didn't have the same race element, but was a very very very big media star. Various abuse allegations were made against him that never stuck whilst he was alive.
After he died a few years ago, a lot of people made more allegations, and it's now generally accepted that he was a prolific sex offender.
I have genuinely no idea about Mr Cosby, but here in the UK, people should now be far less likely to say "he's very famous, they are milking it" about potential victims.
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I find it worrying that there is an immediate tendency not to believe these accusations.
People think that they know celebrities whose acts they enjoy. Lots of people didn't want to believe the allegations against Rolf Harris when they came out - he was a beloved children's entertainer who almost seemed like everyone's uncle.
Bill Cosby, as you point out, has a similarly beloved persona. Who wouldn't want Dr. Huxtable as an uncle, or a neighbor? Plus, of course, in his case there's a healthy dose of racial guilt. Bill Cosby was the acceptable face of the black man - played a reliable family man on TV, funny, educated, told kids to pull up their pants: it was easy for white people to feel comfortable about liking him, and correspondingly difficult for them to consider that he might be guilty.
A single complaint against a celebrity could be the work of someone who was a bit unhinged, but once you have a group of women, all with traceable relationships with a single man, not obviously connected to each other, and all saying that they were sexually assaulted by that man, the odds of him being innocent start to look rather slim.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Commandment 7 forbids the posting of libellous material, and we err on the safe side here.
The comments so far have been flagged to admins for review on this score.
If the debate stays on the general topic of accusations against celebrities, it might manage to survive. But expect posts making specific unsubstantiated allegations against named individuals to disappear and the posters to receive extra special attention.
Drive safely now.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I suspect that people who are inclined to believe that false rape accusations are rife will probably think that celebrities are falsely accused, and those who think that accusers are usually telling the truth will tend to believe the accusers. And then sweep it all into our memories as either "remember that celebrity who was a complete scumbag?" or "remember when all those attention whores came out of the woodwork looking for publicity?" as though the evidence - whatever it is - supports their point of view. Confirmation bias. Everyone has it. We'll never see most of the real evidence, and evidence doesn't have the mind-changing effect it should have anyway.
Did any particular celebrity do anything? I don't know, although I'm certainly more inclined to believe alleged victims than alleged perps. That's how my own confirmation bias rolls. But no, I don't know, and I'm okay with that, because I'm not involved in the justice system in any of these cases.
One thing I will say, though: anyone who falsely claims to have been raped/assaulted by a celebrity in order to get attention or money is an idiot. The attention they get will not be the kind of attention that will do anyone any good. I think that most people know that and are not stupid enough to do such a thing. Hence the aforementioned inclination to believe the accusers.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ISTM, there are multiple factors at work when a beloved celebrity does wrong.
One is that many human cultures place a high value on celebrity. That value often eclipses the reality of the person.
Another is humans tend to be black and white in their thinking.
Person A has done good things therefore they are completely good.
It is perfectly possible to sincerely do things that are very good whilst simultaneously doing things that are very wrong. But it is more difficult for us to process this, especially in those we admire.
[ 18. November 2014, 17:37: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
(Eutychus , this is about a past court case regarding Cosby and others. Court case info is in the news link. Is it ok?)
I was listening to NPR's "Weekend Edition--Saturday" when Scott Simon raised the question--about as gently and respectfully as any journalist possibly could. I don't know whether or not Cosby raped anyone.
What soured me on Cosby, rightly or wrongly, was the 1997 court case against his alleged daughter for alleged extortion against him. He denied she was his daughter; but he'd had an affair with her mother, and paid a lot of money to help in the girl's raising, and he knew the girl. He refused to have a paternity test--and THAT last bit, in combination with the other things and with letting the case go forward, soured me on him.
YMMV.
ETA: Cos( Eutychus , this is about a past court case regarding Cosby and others. Court case info is in the news link. Is it ok?)
I was listening to NPR's "Weekend Edition--Saturday" when Scott Simon raised the question--about as gently and respectfully as any journalist possibly could. I don't know whether or not Cosby raped anyone.
What soured me on Cosby, rightly or wrongly, was the 1997 court case against his alleged daughter for alleged extortion against him. He denied she was his daughter; but he'd had an affair with her mother, and paid a lot of money to help in the girl's raising, and he knew the girl. He refused to have a paternity test--and THAT last bit, in combination with the other things and with letting the case go forward, soured me on him.
YMMV.
ETA: his son was murdered at the beginning of that year, and perhaps that was a factor in Cosby's reactions.
[ 18. November 2014, 18:37: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) Profuse apologies for massively screwing that post up.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Rather like with the Michael Jackson allegations, I don't understand how you settle these allegations out of court.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
This is a guess, but I think they are referring to paying somebody in order to avoid having a civil suit filed.
You can't do that with a criminal case (tampering with a witness, that'd be) but rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute without physical or eye witness evidence, so if some time had passed, a civil suit would be the only realistic option. Other than trial in the press, I mean.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I find it worrying that there is an immediate tendency not to believe these accusations.
Wouldn't it be more worrying if we were all ready to believe accusations against someone for which there is absolutely no evidence?
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
All of that I think gets mixed up with America's sad history of race. Cosby in particular seems to represent for Americans the desire to skip ahead to the good part-- to be a "post-racial America" without the painful work of addressing our racial past or present.
Would it better address our racial past to say, "Oh yeah, black man and pretty young white girls? Sure, he raped them,"?
I don't know what happened in these cases. I think the accusations may well be true and I wouldn't say I have an across the board tendency to either believe the victim or believe the accused in this sort of situation.
What I do believe, is that in any accusation of crime, the accusers have a duty to bring more than their distant memories to the table. I think, if they made the decision, at the time, to say nothing for whatever reason, then it seems slightly shady to wait twenty or thirty years and jump on a band wagon, long after their careers are past being effected and long after witnesses for the defense are gone or have forgotten about the day in question.
I don't agree that no one wants to be seen as a victim in these situations or that there aren't fourteen, never quite made it, actresses in Hollywood who wouldn't see this as a way to make themselves seem much more interesting.
Rape is usually a crime without witnesses, that's why it is so important to go to the police immediately while forensic evidence is still viable and while a few circumstantial witnesses are still around. Waiting thirty years and still wanting your day in court seems to ask people to release you from any burden of proof and simply believe "a woman wouldn't lie about such a thing," when clearly they sometimes do.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
It is, in my opinion, far more believable that this is true
It reminds of the recent allegations against a CBC program host. Initially there was an outpouring of support and an acceptance of the denial. Now, some 10 women have come forward in that one, and police are investigation.
I recommend for an understanding of the difficulties women face with sex assault, lawyers and courts. Reform is obviously in order. Less rights for the accused and more rights for the victim? The balance is not balanced presently.
quote:
The Root of the Problem
Defence Attorneys
A successful Ottawa lawyer, speaking at a seminar said that “if you destroy the complainant in a prosecution…you destroy the head. You cut off the head of the Crown’s case and the case is dead. My own experience is the preliminary inquiry is the ideal place in a sexual assault trial to try and win it all… you’ve got to attack the complainant with all you’ve got so that he or she will say I’m not coming back in front of 12 good citizens to repeat this bullshit story that I’ve just told the judge.”[6] It’s no coincidence that the violent imagery in his words mirrors the violent nature of sexual assault, and the scenario he describes traumatizes many survivors and deters other victims from seeking justice. When a complainant is questioned by police and cross-examined on the stand, he or she is forced to relive the trauma of the assault and the feelings of shame and guilt are compounded. It would seem that while we have enshrined the principle of an accused being innocent until proven guilty, we have also enshrined the opposite principle with regards to victims of sexual assault.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This is a guess, but I think they are referring to paying somebody in order to avoid having a civil suit filed.
You can't do that with a criminal case (tampering with a witness, that'd be) but rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute without physical or eye witness evidence, so if some time had passed, a civil suit would be the only realistic option. Other than trial in the press, I mean.
But surely, reputationally, paying off allegations of this kind is problematic - it suggests you are not confident of winning your case in court.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, yeah--OR else that you simply don't want to be dragged through the mud. I know that my husband and I have been advised to give certain assholes what they want (money, whatever) even though they were complete liars, because the damage associated with a public suit is so severe, and my husband is a pastor. Reputation is almost everything there.
No, we didn't listen. We told the assholes to "publish and be damned." At which point they slunk away into their holes like the liars they were.
We did it because we are naturally perverse, and hate hate HATE people trying to bully us, legally or elsewise; because we have no money; and because if you pay Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane. Plus the payoff would certainly be taken as a confession, as you mention.
But then, for a TV celebrity, I can see how s/he might weigh such matters differently.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
But surely, reputationally, paying off allegations of this kind is problematic - it suggests you are not confident of winning your case in court.
Settling is usually a LOT cheaper than paying a lawyer to clear your name, and keeps you in control of private info (details about your daily life habits, details about your income, etc) that a court case exposes to public record and getting plastered all over the web.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I would always counsel caution when allegations are being flung around, aimed at either the living or the dead.
I say this as someone who can remember the madness over the 'Satanic Abuse' scandal; the craziness in Cleveland; the many Daycare scandals here and in the US in the 802 and early 90s; and the devastation caused by misplaced belief in Recovered Memory Therapy which has strayed beyond the bounds of detached professionalism into a crusade.
Bill Cosby is damned if he responds to the allegations and damned if he doesn't. As always, it is far easier to stitch together suggestion, innuendo and accusation than it is to prove innocence - after all, proving innocence is, in effect, trying to prove something that wasn't which is no simple matter.
In any case, surely the whole basis of UK and US jurisprudence is still a belief in innocence until guilt if proved, not the other way around.
Trial by media has caused enough devastation in the past few decades - surely we're not going to encourage the hounding of another victim?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I would always counsel caution when allegations are being flung around, aimed at either the living or the dead.
I say this as someone who can remember the madness over the 'Satanic Abuse' scandal; the craziness in Cleveland; the many Daycare scandals here and in the US in the 802 and early 90s; and the devastation caused by misplaced belief in Recovered Memory Therapy which has strayed beyond the bounds of detached professionalism into a crusade.
Bill Cosby is damned if he responds to the allegations and damned if he doesn't. As always, it is far easier to stitch together suggestion, innuendo and accusation than it is to prove innocence - after all, proving innocence is, in effect, trying to prove something that wasn't which is no simple matter.
In any case, surely the whole basis of UK and US jurisprudence is still a belief in innocence until guilt if proved, not the other way around.
Trial by media has caused enough devastation in the past few decades - surely we're not going to encourage the hounding of another victim?
From the OP: "There are presently 14 women alleging the same scenario of drugged drinks and rape. Are they all just looking for money or attention? Hard to believe; almost as hard to believe as the accusations themselves."
The Satanic and daycare cases do not apply. Those cases imply "group think" where a group of associated people make allegations. The false memory stuff doesn't apply. This is 14 different women. Entirely different.
I would counsel instead strict non-support of the celebrity at the level of neutrality, and diligent but polite interviews with the complainants with proper support for them as they experience the secondary trauma of discussing what they'd rather forget. . Unless the preference is to scare them off. Which is the outcome of more versus less in sexual assault cases. (I wish I knew a lot less about all of this.)
[ 18. November 2014, 20:55: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
I don't know what happened in these cases. I think the accusations may well be true and I wouldn't say I have an across the board tendency to either believe the victim or believe the accused in this sort of situation.
You don't have to know. Allegations have been made, presumably they will be reported to the proper authorities and, if they think there is a case to answer there will be an indictment, and either an acquittal or a conviction.
The thing is that at the moment there are large numbers of people who have obviously decided that Bill Cosby is a MAN and therefore is GUILTY. Or, alternately, that he who steals their purse steals trash but he that steals the good name of Cliff Huxtable ought to have their head nailed to a wall. Now we all have our prejudices but they are no way to determine guilt or innocence. The fact that Cosby is black and popular is not a defence in law. The fact that he is a man accused by women is not a proof of guilt. Leave that to the courts. If that means you feel conflicted until a verdict comes in one way or the other then you will just have to feel conflicted. Maybe your feelings compared to the issues at stake for Cosby and his accusers, aren't that important in the scheme of things.
[ 18. November 2014, 21:55: Message edited by: Callan ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Two words from the UK - Jimmy Savile.
Didn't have the same race element, but was a very very very big media star. Various abuse allegations were made against him that never stuck whilst he was alive.
After he died a few years ago, a lot of people made more allegations, and it's now generally accepted that he was a prolific sex offender.
I have genuinely no idea about Mr Cosby, but here in the UK, people should now be far less likely to say "he's very famous, they are milking it" about potential victims.
I saw some of the Savile case as told by BBC. And was appalled . If the allegations made against Bill Cosby bear out I will also be appalled. Not cause of his race that's irrelevant but cause it's taken this long to get to investigation stage and that may not even work out if the statute of limitations have expired .
It is very sad when our heroes/stars turn out to be as human as the rest of us .let justice be done.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
I don't know what happened in these cases. I think the accusations may well be true and I wouldn't say I have an across the board tendency to either believe the victim or believe the accused in this sort of situation.
You don't have to know. Allegations have been made, presumably they will be reported to the proper authorities and, if they think there is a case to answer there will be an indictment, and either an acquittal or a conviction.
The thing is that at the moment there are large numbers of people who have obviously decided that Bill Cosby is a MAN and therefore is GUILTY. Or, alternately, that he who steals their purse steals trash but he that steals the good name of Cliff Huxtable ought to have their head nailed to a wall. Now we all have our prejudices but they are no way to determine guilt or innocence. The fact that Cosby is black and popular is not a defence in law. The fact that he is a man accused by women is not a proof of guilt. Leave that to the courts. If that means you feel conflicted until a verdict comes in one way or the other then you will just have to feel conflicted. Maybe your feelings compared to the issues at stake for Cosby and his accusers, aren't that important in the scheme of things.
You're right. My feelings about this issue are not important in the great scheme of things and your feelings about my feelings are not very important in the great scheme of things, either. I'm surprised you bother with discussion boards at all considering the vast meaninglessness of it all.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
You don't have to know. Allegations have been made, presumably they will be reported to the proper authorities and, if they think there is a case to answer there will be an indictment, and either an acquittal or a conviction.
Would that things were that simple. Cosby has been held up for years as a role model for many, and -- regardless of what may eventually transpire in a court of law -- his reputation has effectively been wrecked, whether or not the allegations are true.
The roles he has played and the comedy he has produced depend heavily on that carefully-built public persona, so it's likely his career is over. What sponsor will sign on to a TV special which includes him, even if he's cleared? O.J. Simpson, after all, was acquitted of the murders of his wife and her lover.
If the allegations are true, perhaps Cosby deserves whatever ill follows. Even if the allegations are untrue, there will now always be doubt and scandal attaching to his name. But what of the disillusionment this visits upon the thousands and thousands of people for whom he represented something to aspire to?
It would be nice if, occasionally, a few of our social idols could prove actually deserving of whatever respect and admiration get aimed their way.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
All of that I think gets mixed up with America's sad history of race. Cosby in particular seems to represent for Americans the desire to skip ahead to the good part-- to be a "post-racial America" without the painful work of addressing our racial past or present.
Would it better address our racial past to say, "Oh yeah, black man and pretty young white girls? Sure, he raped them,"?
I don't think it's that simple. Just as it wasn't simple enough to say "the police must have framed OJ". But I do think the racial aspect of this particular case is significant, even as it cuts both ways.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What I do believe, is that in any accusation of crime, the accusers have a duty to bring more than their distant memories to the table. I think, if they made the decision, at the time, to say nothing for whatever reason, then it seems slightly shady to wait twenty or thirty years and jump on a band wagon, long after their careers are past being effected and long after witnesses for the defense are gone or have forgotten about the day in question.
... Waiting thirty years and still wanting your day in court seems to ask people to release you from any burden of proof and simply believe "a woman wouldn't lie about such a thing," when clearly they sometimes do.
From the reports here in the US it doesn't seem as if the women waited 30 years-- iow, these aren't new allegations. It just is being restated/revisited 30 years later because another celebrity raised the issue. Now the fact that it was raised 30 years ago and then dismissed may be indication that there was nothing much to it 30 years ago, and Cosby is justifiably frustrated to never be able to get past this. Or not. But the fact that it's been 30 years cannot in and of itself cannot be taken as evidence one way or another.
[ 19. November 2014, 00:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Before I say anything else, can I first say that I have absolutely NO opinion whatsoever on his guilt or innocence? I am very carefully avoiding any opinion for the reasons that follow. So don't flame me because you think I'm defending the guy--or accusing him, for that matter. I'm not, because I don't know jack-shit about the situation, only what's being said in the media.
Anyway--
My understanding is that there will be, and can be, no criminal indictment, as the statute of limitations has long since run out. Therefore there will be no criminal trial, no fact-finding, etc. etc. unless someone files a civil suit. That's what makes this mess so (additionally) sticky. You can't say, "We'll wait for the trial and see what comes out." Nothing's going to trial. And Cosby is doing the prudent thing for any man, innocent or guilty, facing such charges--he's not saying nothing to the media. So we can't draw conclusions from that either, because a wise man would do exactly the same thing in either case.
As for the sheer number of people--look, I know the whole "no smoke without fire" thing, and I tend to be swayed by numbers just as much as anybody else. But there's this one problem with saying "obviously guilty, look at the numbers." The problem is that nutcases DO in fact exist, and the bandwagon effect also exists, and when you're dealing with someone who has been a household name to millions for decades, it wouldn't be too hard to scare up a dozen or so nutcases. NOT THAT I AM SAYING THESE WOMEN ARE NUTCASES. I AM NOT. I DON'T KNOW.
All I'm saying is we can't conclude anything, one way or the other, on the data we currently have. And I thank God it isn't my duty to conclude anything. It's going to be hell on people like his friends, relatives, employers (sponsors etc.) as they will have to adopt SOME attitude to him, either positive or negative, simply because they interact with him. And it's so easy to get it wrong.
Really, it's a pity there can't be a criminal trial. Now there's going to be nothing but fog and distress for everybody involved, and no closure, and nothing to safely hang your personal opinion on. Mr. Lamb and I were very glad when our accusers forced an official investigation of us, because at least that established the facts--and, ultimately, our innocence. Which we could never have done without some official authority bringing the allegations to judgment.
If the man is innocent (which he may not be), I feel for him. Because I know what it's like to suffer from false accusations and the heartbreak that follows--lost friends, family, etc. And we were lucky enough to have an investigation. He won't be. Which sucks for everybody.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Cosby accuser not reporting at the time: I've seen an interview with her. She says she tried, but was turned away because no one wanted to believe her.
Re murder of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman: They were friends, not lovers. IIRC, Ron was gay.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re settling out of court: it may be better in certain ways--but ISTM it makes the person look guilty.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re settling out of court: it may be better in certain ways--but ISTM it makes the person look guilty.
No. You attach a "non disclosure" clause. I made a stupid lawsuit with no basis go away for $5000 of insurance money with no deductable. It costed me nothing except a hell of a lot of stress, and the insurance plan is such that there is no penalty for having a claim for what they consider "nuisance amounts". The person who got the money had to pay their lawyer 35%. If they ever speak about it, they pay the insurance company and me 10 times what they collected. These things are the cost of doing business in the 21st century.
There are probably people who file lawsuits just to get these nuisance amounts, and I know there are lawyers who absolutely jack-light with cyanide and dynamite for such cases.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
From Luther's Small Catechism: (Smith Translation)
You must not tell lies about your neighbor.
Q. What does this mean?
A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not deceive by lying, betraying, slandering or ruining our neighbor's reputation, but will defend him, say good things about him, and see the best side of everything he does.
I can remember Bill Cosby doing stand up comedy when I was a teenager back in the 60's. People have talked about his show, but his stand up routines were hilarious. There is the Noah routine, the time he went to Seattle (where they have rain tans) and the time he went out to play football, just to name three of them. There is also the early TV Series "I Spy." And his Fat Albert stories (though some would wonder if they would be considered politically correct."
Does he have clay feet? I don't know. Many people do, though.
If and when these allegations can be addressed in a court of law, we have to presume a person is innocent until proven guilty.
But it is difficult to see the reputation of such a great man be tarnished at the end of his life.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re settling out of court: it may be better in certain ways--but ISTM it makes the person look guilty.
There are probably people who file lawsuits just to get these nuisance amounts, and I know there are lawyers who absolutely jack-light with cyanide and dynamite for such cases.
There are. Mr Lamb was accused of hit and run in IL although he could bloody well prove he'd been at court interpreting 30 miles away at the time. The filer wanted insurance money and had a relative on the police force colluding. Unfortunately we did such a good job proving fraud that our insurance co refused to pay, and we were left to battle the thing through the courts on our own cost. (Cop eanted revenge
[code]
[ 19. November 2014, 05:05: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I find it worrying that there is an immediate tendency not to believe these accusations.
Wouldn't it be more worrying if we were all ready to believe accusations against someone for which there is absolutely no evidence?
I think people should have an open mind and then judge based on the information available. Evidence? What does that mean in the case of acquaintance rape which almost always boils down to "he said, she said."
When 14 "shes" say something, we need to start listening.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I find it worrying that there is an immediate tendency not to believe these accusations.
Wouldn't it be more worrying if we were all ready to believe accusations against someone for which there is absolutely no evidence?
Not as worrying as your assertion that the testimony of women doesn't qualify as "evidence". I can understand the position that it's insufficient evidence, but the idea that it's not evidence of any sort seems downright dismissive.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
It's difficult when someone you admire is accused of behaviour that you don't. This week there have been reports that a person who heads an agency in my city has sexually harassed one of the workers and he admitted to it at a press conference and apologised. The employing agency said it was serious, but they decided not to fire him, whereupon he resigned.
Support for him is running strongly here, and I understand that, he is a charismatic figure, and did achieve a lot of good, (including giving many of us our first laugh after the Feb 2011 quake), however there is a strong element of victim blaming going of too - How dare this woman ruin the life of someone who has done so much for our city?
Despite being sexually harassed at work myself, I initially didn't want to believe it either, but now I do. The trouble is that just because a person is admirable in some things doesn't mean they are totally without flaws.
I hope he gets some help in dealing with his behaviour now he no longer has the stress of his job, but even more I hope the woman who made the complaint gets whatever help she needs.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Whatever the truth about the accusations against Bill Cosby, I assume that we can all agree that Don Lemon's little riff on "if you didn't want him to rape your mouth, why didn't you just bite him" on CNN is completely unacceptable.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
From Luther's Small Catechism: (Smith Translation)
You must not tell lies about your neighbor.
Q. What does this mean?
A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not deceive by lying, betraying, slandering or ruining our neighbor's reputation, but will defend him, say good things about him, and see the best side of everything he does.
I can remember Bill Cosby doing stand up comedy when I was a teenager back in the 60's. People have talked about his show, but his stand up routines were hilarious. There is the Noah routine, the time he went to Seattle (where they have rain tans) and the time he went out to play football, just to name three of them. There is also the early TV Series "I Spy." And his Fat Albert stories (though some would wonder if they would be considered politically correct."
Does he have clay feet? I don't know. Many people do, though.
If and when these allegations can be addressed in a court of law, we have to presume a person is innocent until proven guilty.
But it is difficult to see the reputation of such a great man be tarnished at the end of his life.
I love you Gramps for the first part of your post. If only the world were as Jesus wanted it to be. We can only try and try try try again.
The second part is the problematic one specifically in cases of sexual assault. In the words of a lawyer in the link I post above in this thread "cut the head off [of the complainant]". In my words: make the complainant sorry she ever reported anything, and make her relive everything traumatic about her experience. The outcome thus is an example to all: women shouldn't come forward with sexual assault and abuse allegations because there is only trauma, and very limited support. My family's experience with Victim's Services is that they are underfunded, incompetent and self-centred, wanting to move along to a better job. I can only say thank God for honest and decent police officers (4 of them for us).
Lamb Chopped - your story is awful. My lawsuit was in a totally different area than the Cosby allegations as well. The stress of such things is unimaginable.
Back to Gramps: I really like honest and decent people and I wish for all of us that we could move things that direction.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re settling out of court: it may be better in certain ways--but ISTM it makes the person look guilty.
I think there are cases where, if the person is wealthy enough, and the evidence suggestive enough, they'd pay the settlement just to avoid the hassle of having to explain embarrassing details, even if they're not guilty.
For reasons I won't get into, I personally think that Michael Jackson, while having highly irregular relationships with children, never crossed the line into outright molestation. But I think he paid off that one kid in the 90s because the details the kid could recount for the press would have been so off-the-wall that they would done serious damage to Jackson's reputation, possibly providing fodder for criminal charges.
Since Jackson was already a billionaire by that time, the money he paid out, while astronomical by most standards, was a drop in the bucket for him, a small price to pay for avoiding some serious hassles.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
You're right. My feelings about this issue are not important in the great scheme of things and your feelings about my feelings are not very important in the great scheme of things, either. I'm surprised you bother with discussion boards at all considering the vast meaninglessness of it all.
Think of me as your own personal Total Perspective Vortex.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
I think what is unsettling in this case is that we are dealing with a new kind of unfairness.
We are used to the old kind of unfairness - that which put the burden of these events on women. Buck up, wipe yourself off, avoid him, get a different job. Some measures of legal and then workplace processes were put in place to address these, but still, the focus and social burden remained on the (alleged?) victim's reaction.
Now the spotlight has turned on the (alleged?) male perpetrators. They now find themselves in the role where victims of the old unfairness used to be: the subject of gossip, subject to workplace ramifications without any investigative process having taken place, stuck in the old "he said, she said" but with now more credibility attached to the "she said" part of the equation.
Both kinds of unfairness suck. We're just used to the older model and don't quite know what to do with the new. Interesting that some people choose to revert to the older unfairness as a default response.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Now the spotlight has turned on the (alleged?) male perpetrators. They now find themselves in the role where victims of the old unfairness used to be: the subject of gossip, subject to workplace ramifications without any investigative process having taken place, stuck in the old "he said, she said" but with now more credibility attached to the "she said" part of the equation.
Has Bill Cosby suffered any "workplace ramifications"? My understanding is that he was able to effectively silence or sideline his accusers until he's reached an age where most people are retired. He's even still getting job offers.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Not sure about the "job offers." His scheduled appearance on the David Letterman show was cancelled.
Yes, I understand that the victims of a sexual assault find it very difficult to come forward to tell their story. It would appear that the thirty four women who claim Cosby assaulted them until now did not want to go through that trauma. I certainly feel for them.
But this goes to show if someone does not speak up, the alleged perpetrator will continue the behavior. I see this so many times on the local college campus.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
His wholesome approachable image went a long way toward easing feelings, on both sides, that we were all so very different from each other.
We loved Bill Cosby as much as we can love someone we never actually met.
So, in answer to Barbara Bowman's question of why we didn't believe her. Well, lacking any forensic evidence, it's her word against his and we don't "know," her as well as we think we know him. Thoughts?
Exactly the same as one Jimmy Savile here in the UK. No one thought he could possibly be guilty ... yet the evidence now proves otherwise: at least 30 hospitals were the places where he groomed and abused.
There will always be little evidence years down the line. 30 - even 20 perhaps 10 years ago - stuff went on that even if it was reported remained ignored, especially with the bigger stars.
Recent cases in the UK seem to suggest that the bigger the star, the greater the abuse. It may be that these people consider themselves untouchable - and it seems from current stuff in the UK that some people in high places actually are. Perhaps more significant is the "love" (more adulation) people afford celebrities in a vicarious relationship. It gives them a superhero complex which some exploit through abuse.
I'm always concerned when I hear "of course everyone loves [person]" No, they don't - and, it's not healthy to see them in that way. You don't know them.
[ 19. November 2014, 18:28: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
We loved Bill Cosby as much as we can love someone we never actually met.
I'm always concerned when I hear "of course everyone loves [person]" No, they don't - and, it's not healthy to see them in that way. You don't know them.
You're about the fifth person here to jump on that statement of "love," which I did qualify. I said we loved him in the same way I might say I loved Emma Thompson's acting or I loved Art Garfunkel. Of course, I don't really love him, I never even watched his sit-com, but we really enjoyed (is that better?) his stand-up routines and comedy records.
I have also said from the beginning that he may well be guilty and it looks more like it all the time, so people can quit saying I'm dismissive of the women's stories. There is no hard forensic evidence, like DNA, so it's difficult to say with absolute certainty.
Leaf is right. We've gone to the other extreme from the "she was asking for it," days. These days it seems that we are required to believe any woman who accuses a man of rape or else be accused ourselves of "blaming the victim." I'm reminded of the members of the Duke Lacrosse team whose young lives were ruined because of this new rule.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Has Bill Cosby suffered any "workplace ramifications"?
Netflix canceled his planned comedy special. NBC has dropped his new sit-com which was supposed to begin this month. TVLand cable network has dropped re-runs of his old show.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Well, if nothing else, this culture will teach men to take responsibility. Ironically, it could lead to more people practicing old fashioned courtship rituals, but for the protection of the men as well as the women.
Don't know about Cosby, honestly, though I find it unlikely that a woman would fake this kind of accusation when there's basically no return.
And as someone said on an article I read, the plaintiffs must be incredibly naive if they think they've got anything to gain by this.
[ 20. November 2014, 00:46: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Wouldn't it be more worrying if we were all ready to believe accusations against someone for which there is absolutely no evidence?
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I have also said from the beginning that he may well be guilty and it looks more like it all the time, so people can quit saying I'm dismissive of the women's stories. There is no hard forensic evidence, like DNA, so it's difficult to say with absolute certainty.
These are not remotely the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Leaf is right. We've gone to the other extreme from the "she was asking for it," days. These days it seems that we are required to believe any woman who accuses a man of rape or else be accused ourselves of "blaming the victim."
Right. It's just a simple case of he said / she & she & she & she & she & she & she & she & she & she & she & she said. Why attribute to bias what is much more easily explained by what seems to be a preponderance of circumstantial evidence?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Don't know about Cosby, honestly, though I find it unlikely that a woman would fake this kind of accusation when there's basically no return.
And as someone said on an article I read, the plaintiffs must be incredibly naive if they think they've got anything to gain by this.
And yet they seem to have gotten revenge (job offers being pulled, etc.). "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and all.
Having been on the receiving end of sexual rumors (of the 'I slept with her' and 'We both had sex with her at the same time and there's two of us and only one of her' variety), I'm wary of accepting a thing as true simply because a bunch of people said it. Particularly as we seem to be in a distinctly odd moment in our cultural gender war.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Leaf is right. We've gone to the other extreme from the "she was asking for it," days. These days it seems that we are required to believe any woman who accuses a man of rape or else be accused ourselves of "blaming the victim." I'm reminded of the members of the Duke Lacrosse team whose young lives were ruined because of this new rule.
That's not quite what I meant. I wouldn't say we've gone from one extreme to another, as if we've abandoned the old unfairness. Some people are very fond of it as the go-to narrative.
I meant that we've added another layer of unfairness to the pre-existing one. Both are equally supported by stereotypes and proverbs (gold-digger, no smoke without fire). It's just that the newer one now has more cultural significance.
I hasten to repeat that they are both unfair.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Things have hardly changed. It is merely suggestion that things move. Interesting that the suggestions provoke as they do.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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