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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I am curious, however, about people who wear stocks/rabats/waistcoats. When the priest puts a cassock/cassock-alb on, does the stock/rabat/waistcoat come off? It doesn't seem to me that it would be terribly comfortable, and I understand that stocks &c. were designed as a sort of mini-cassock, and you wouldn't wear two cassocks...
I have no idea what various people would declare as correct, but practically speaking you can do it either way. I don't wear a stock often (and then usually on occasions like formal dinners where I'm in suit and stock) but if I do and wear a cassock then it's a matter of weighing up the faff of taking the stock off against losing a layer if it's warm.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Basilica quote:
...stocks &c. were designed as a sort of mini-cassock...
Don't think we're speaking of the same thing: IME a stock is a clerical collar on a piece of black material that can be tucked into a jacket to give the appearance that the wearer has on a full clerical shirt.
Some stocks are slightly longer and can be tucked in trousers.
They are jolly useful when its hot and you don't want to wear a long-sleeved shirt, so I'm told.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Basilica quote:
...stocks &c. were designed as a sort of mini-cassock...
Don't think we're speaking of the same thing: IME a stock is a clerical collar on a piece of black material that can be tucked into a jacket to give the appearance that the wearer has on a full clerical shirt.
Some stocks are slightly longer and can be tucked in trousers.
They are jolly useful when its hot and you don't want to wear a long-sleeved shirt, so I'm told.
I'm talking about this kind of thing: http://www.wippell.com/p-502-style-178-black-persian-cord-and-black-all-wool-panama.aspx
AIUI, this was "normal" clerical dress in the first half of the twentieth century. Modern clerical shirts are a simplification, while "bib" stocks such as you describe have taken the whole thing full circle!
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I see that the medium weight is a mix of cotton and wool. Not cotton and linen, but still a mix. Any comments please.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Does anyone know if there are different "rules" for how you tie a cincture for different groups? I know that some people just improvise, but whenever I have heard of a "rule" for how you tie it it has been something pretty simple. I have attended a church where all servers and the priest have a pretty complicated getup with loops and knots (it looks) on both sides of them. It is so complicated that it looks intentional and not just like an improvisation on how to tie it securely. Plus it's that way every week. Anyone know about any variation in cincture tying? Is there only one prescribed way?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Up In Smoke
Shipmate
# 10971
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Posted
At our Anglo-Catholic place, the priest ties the cincture with a loop on either side, through which the ends of the stole go. Those serving in other roles simply tie a knot and leave the ends of the cincture hanging to one side. Some have suggested that the looped method is somehow "reserved" to priests, though I suspect its origins are entirely practical, not symbolic of anything. Then again, when it comes to vesture, something as practical as a knot can and will be infused with symbolic meaning by someone, somewhere, it appears.
Posts: 109 | From: The Left Coast | Registered: Feb 2006
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
There is an instructional thingy on the Almy (clericals) site. It even has a PRINT option. It lay around the vestry for a few weeks till RevC got the hang of it.
[ 13. March 2014, 04:12: Message edited by: Galilit ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Enter: "cincture knot" in the "search" box.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
Both priests and deacons use the ends of the cincture to secure the ends of their stoles, the priest's crossed on his breast and the deacon's on his right hip, more or less in the same way, by creating loops either side of the knot through which pass the ends of the stole.
Neither Fortescue nor Ritual Notes mention anything about how the subdeacon or anyone else who does not wear a stole should tie their girdles, so any custom one encounters is just that: pious and worthy, doubtless, but not necessarily prescribed.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Interesting...it seems that since Vatican II the norm in RC parishes has been for both the priest and the lay servers to tie cinctures in the "monastic" way (ie, the way that people in religious habits tied them traditionally when they were not wearing a stole). The stole for the priest (which is no longer crossed) then goes over the cincture.
The parish I was talking about is Episcopal, not RC. The priest is relatively low-Church but the rest of the parish is relatively Anglo-Catholic. The priest does not cross his stole but he ties his cincture as if it would have been crossed and inserts the sides of the stole, not crossed, in the loops of the knot. The servers in albs also tie their cinctures this way, although they are not wearing stoles.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Crossed stoles went out with Vatican 2
That's an accurate description of the post-V2 tendency, but I feel I should note that neither the rubrics of the Ordinary Form nor the GIRM prohibit crossing the stole, and that I've seen priests celebrating the Ordinary Form with their stoles crossed. And with maniples in the bargain!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
A bit of liturgical history:
The earliest descriptions/depictions would seem to be of the bishop wearing his stole uncrossed and wearing a pectoral cross (not 'abdominal' as so many modern bishops wear their crosses). As the church grew and bishops deputed priests to celebrate the eucharist, the priest, having no cross, 'crossed' the stole.
This is far earlier than either gothic or fiddleback chasubles, it dates from the conical period.
And regarding the maniples (which seem to upset Leo), they are the only piece of vesture which is peculiarly eucharistic, never worn elsewhere, unlike the chasuble which may be encountered in certain non-eucharist situations.
At least, so my liturgics prof told us.
And BTW, it's no more a museum piece than the remaining bits of ancient (dead?) languages, such as 'Kyrie eleison' or 'Gloria in excelsis,' heard from time to time in lots of places. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I find a maniple adds a bit of spice and danger to the celebration of Mass. Having to be careful not to accidentally sweep the hosts off the paten adds an element of unpredictability that livens up the stuffy proceedings--at least in my home museum, er, parish.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But why be in a museum?
And what was the point of crossing stoles anyway?
Something to do with fiddlebacks? If so, why do it when wearing gothic?
To distinguish priest and bishop? If so, the pectoral cross already distinguishes them.
As for maniples. Grrr.
As far as I can tell, you've made no arguments against maniples and crossed stoles which are not equally applicable to every other vestment: viz. they're old and have no utilitarian point.
Every N.O. Mass we celebrate is celebrated by ap riest in crossed stole and maniple. The GIRM nowhere forbids this, and indeed it should be seen as an encouraging example of the 'mutual enrichment' of which +++Benedict XVI was so keen.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Anglican clerics began to uncross their stoles in the 1970s as they noticed that their RC counterparts were doing so. The few who seemed able to ascribe significance did the sharing in the bishop's eucharistic ministry routine.
Maniples began to disappear at the same time. One of my now departed clerical friends said that it reminded too many of his self-absorbed colleagues of their diaconal servant role, but he may have only been joking. Only one of my deacon friends knows what maniples are for, and she not only happily wears one to the perplexity of her rector, but has them specially run up by a textile artist.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
In my experience very few people know what a maniple is about and therefore all sorts of fetishes spring up around it.
Quite simply, it is the vestment of the subdeacon. If one has not been ordained subdeacon, one should not wear it.
As to how to wear a stole, in fact GIRM does make this clear:
quote:
340. The stole is worn by the priest around his neck and hanging down in front. It is worn by the deacon over his left shoulder and drawn diagonally across the chest to the right side, where it is fastened.
Nothing about crossing it.
So the principle for an RC should be - do as the missal and rubrics instruct, the much celebrated "say the black, do the red". This avoids fetishism and "Spirit of Vatican 2ism"
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Those who celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (a couple hundred locations in North America alone) continue to cross the stole, because the rubrics call for it. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
[ 14. March 2014, 15:06: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
In my experience very few people know what a maniple is about and therefore all sorts of fetishes spring up around it.
Quite simply, it is the vestment of the subdeacon. If one has not been ordained subdeacon, one should not wear it.
As to how to wear a stole, in fact GIRM does make this clear:
quote:
340. The stole is worn by the priest around his neck and hanging down in front. It is worn by the deacon over his left shoulder and drawn diagonally across the chest to the right side, where it is fastened.
Nothing about crossing it.
So the principle for an RC should be - do as the missal and rubrics instruct, the much celebrated "say the black, do the red". This avoids fetishism and "Spirit of Vatican 2ism"
But wouldn't the 'greater' order (to use an old fashioned phrase) include the less?
It is possible for someone to be ordained straight to the order of bishop, without receiving the other orders. In such a case, the person would wear stole (and maniple) surely?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The late Msgr Graham Leonard was (re)ordained priest without having been (re)ordained deacon-- does anyone know if he ever used a maniple in his RC days?
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I observed GL use a maniple at a Mass in Westminster Cathedral.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Casineb
Apprentice
# 15588
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Posted
Is there a name for the short, shoulder-length stole that this United Methodist pastor is wearing? He's been in the news a lot for officiating at his son's same-sex wedding (a topic for another thread), and he's always wearing this same item of clothing. Is it a variation of the stole designed to be worn over a suit?
Posts: 25 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Apr 2010
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I don't know of a particular name for them, but short stoles are very useful to me in two circumstances: when hearing confessions, it's nice to have a stole that ends at your waist and doesn't dangle all over the floor; for confession and/or anointing in hospitals a small pocket sized purple / white reversible stole is very convenient.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Casineb:
Is there a name for the short, shoulder-length stole that this United Methodist pastor is wearing? He's been in the news a lot for officiating at his son's same-sex wedding (a topic for another thread), and he's always wearing this same item of clothing. Is it a variation of the stole designed to be worn over a suit?
Google tells me it’s a Reconciling Stole, and there’s a pattern here. It seems to come from the Reconciling Ministries Network.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Only one of my deacon friends knows what maniples are for, and she not only happily wears one to the perplexity of her rector, but has them specially run up by a textile artist.
As I'm sure everyone is thoroughly tired of me mentioning every time it comes up, (distinctive/permanent/vocational/non-priestly) Anglican deacons in the Diocese of Montréal must wear a maniple of some description, even if they just tie a small towel on their arm, when vested for Mass in alb and stole.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Only one of my deacon friends knows what maniples are for, and she not only happily wears one to the perplexity of her rector, but has them specially run up by a textile artist.
As I'm sure everyone is thoroughly tired of me mentioning every time it comes up, (distinctive/permanent/vocational/non-priestly) Anglican deacons in the Diocese of Montréal must wear a maniple of some description, even if they just tie a small towel on their arm, when vested for Mass in alb and stole.
One does not tire of this, LQ, and if our seminaries and theological schools were only doing their job (as well as bishops and MCs), it would not be necessary.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Richard M
Apprentice
# 16447
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Posted
Hi - does anyone know where I could buy a clerical waistcoat that fits a 'tonsure' collar? I want to wear a smart, white, collarless shirt underneath it, so the waistcoat must be able to take a collar.
Thanks,
R
Posts: 13 | Registered: May 2011
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I would have thought any ecclesial outfitter would have those. Here would be the range at Watra's. Where are you ordering from? Presumably, you would want recommendations of a supplier in your country.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
How do you properly pin or tie a stole for a Deacon>
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
You tie the stole loosely at the hip and then secure the overlap behind with a nappy pin - available from good haberdashers.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
How do you properly pin or tie a stole for a Deacon>
Two pins to gather the two 'legs' together near the right hip are all you need.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Whatever you do, don't rely on velcro. It's noisy and is liable to give way at the wrong time. If the strips aren't lined up correctly the spiky side can catch all sorts of things it should not, as well.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Insufficient discussion of Geneva Gowns, particularly those with frilled cuffs.
THREAD STRANGLED TO DEATH
Hmm, that invokes Double Predestination. This thread really gets up my nostrils, and * 've been working soooo hard to get [* ]that smell[/* ] out of Eccles.
Thread transferred to Hull.
[ 20. September 2014, 01:46: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
You know, * did see a very nice pitchfork being carried by a subarchon of the 6th Hell the other day—the usual fire-blasted black tines had been replaced with a very fetching radioactive green, with a more subtle inward curve than is usual for devils of the Sixth Tier. Does anyone know where this practice developed, and is this practice authorized by the Beelzebub Accords or is more of a, shall we say, local innovation?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
*sigh*
I suppose I have to return my new, shiny toy. Get back, cotta-carrier, back to the fouler place than this from whence thou wast spawned.
whipPOW!
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
For those who hanker for traditional attire among the hierarchy of the church, this might be of interest.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
I was recently back in the UK on leave and attended a family wedding in a rural parish at which a well known bishop presided.
He was in a rush to leave for another engagement and managed to leave his mitre behind in the vestry.
A family member (who was ordained by him) was charged with wrapping it up in a series of plastic bags, looking after it during the reception and then returning it to him the following week.
My daughter also left her hat behind but that didn't seem to cause the same amount of comment.....
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
It would be unfortunate if he were scheduled for a confirmation in Ilkley in the meanwhile.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It would be unfortunate if he were scheduled for a confirmation in Ilkley in the meanwhile.
Am I the only one to spot that this is by way of a joke ... rather than actually calling the validity of a Sacrament into question? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[bad host, should learn to proof-read...]
[ 29. September 2014, 12:36: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yes. Not that my remark was particularly funny, but I thought the link between lack of hats and Ilkley would be obvious (to Brits anyway).
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Casineb:
Is there a name for the short, shoulder-length stole that this United Methodist pastor is wearing? He's been in the news a lot for officiating at his son's same-sex wedding (a topic for another thread), and he's always wearing this same item of clothing. Is it a variation of the stole designed to be worn over a suit?
The pattern looks like a virus.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Casineb:
Is there a name for the short, shoulder-length stole that this United Methodist pastor is wearing? He's been in the news a lot for officiating at his son's same-sex wedding (a topic for another thread), and he's always wearing this same item of clothing. Is it a variation of the stole designed to be worn over a suit?
The pattern looks like a virus.
... or a technicolour pollen grain ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
It may be a truncated stole, but I have also seen Roman Catholic lay eucharistic ministers don something similar (usually in white, Deo Gratias!) before distributing Holy Communion. Not sure if that helps, or what such an item would be called, if indeed it has an 'official' name...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
How's about an eyesore?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
*gentle tap with a sanctuary slipper*
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Canute the Holy
Shipmate
# 9394
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Posted
Does anyone know of a good, and hopefully not too expensive, supplier of shirts which will take a detachable (clerical) collar, but also comes with a detachable soft collar in the same material?
Posts: 183 | From: Sweden | Registered: Apr 2005
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Canute the Holy:
Does anyone know of a good, and hopefully not too expensive, supplier of shirts which will take a detachable (clerical) collar, but also comes with a detachable soft collar in the same material?
I use TM Lewin shirts in exactly the way you describe - sometimes they are clerical shirts; other times they are conventional shirts. When I'm feeling super-trendy, I wear a collar that doesn't match the shirt.
http://www.tmlewin.co.uk/on/demandware.store/Sites-tmlgbp-Site/en_GB/Search-Show?q=tunic+shirts
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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