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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "The Wages of Sin is death." Why?
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
As someone has said " We are not punished for our sins. We are punished by our sins".
This alters our perspective.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
God will reveal all, in His good time.
"Revealing all" includes describing to you just what effects your sins had upon you and those around you. This illumination is probably more terrifying than the threat of mere death, since you will feel the need to accept responsibility for all of that baggage.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
You and God may forgive me for taking a rock and crowning your noggin. You will still have a busted head, though.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Mere Nick quote:
You and God may forgive me for taking a rock and crowning your noggin. You will still have a busted head, though.
Good to see that muscular Christianity is still alive and cracking! Thanks for the warning, though,- I'll stay clear of Dixie.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Mere Nick quote:
You and God may forgive me for taking a rock and crowning your noggin. You will still have a busted head, though.
Good to see that muscular Christianity is still alive and cracking! Thanks for the warning, though,- I'll stay clear of Dixie.
Nah, come on down and have a brew. If I step out of line my wife would put one on me that even bleach couldn't take off.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Yo, Nick! Thy rod and staff will comfort me.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
What is sin, and what kind of death?
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
As someone has said " We are not punished for our sins. We are punished by our sins".
This alters our perspective.
Yes. There are three theories within Christianity of what's wrong w/ humanity or "why we need a Savior"-- one, as the OP suggests, is that God's wrath vs. human sinfulness puts us in danger of eternal punishment, annihilation, or separation. But there are others: Another is that we cannot comprehend, on the deepest level, the reality of God's love. And another is that our sin puts us in bondage-- much as Jesus says in John's gospel. We have, thru our sin, figuratively "sold our soul to the devil"-- placed our trust in something other than God, whether that's pleasure, selfishness, accomplishment, whatever. And ultimately that becomes bondage. I like the analogy of addiction because you can see it so clearly-- the first time the addict takes a hit of whatever substance floats his or her boat, it was a choice. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd or 4th time it was a choice. But at some point (that point depending on the nature of the addictive substance) it's no longer a choice-- you are no longer choosing the drug, the drug is choosing you. It has become your master.
I believe something similar is happening not just with addiction, but with all sin. We begin by choosing the sin-- whether it's a lie, an attitude, bitterness, whatever-- but at some point we no longer choose, it has become so engrained in our character and habits that overcoming it is not unlike overcoming addiction. In some cases this leads to literal death, more often it is a figurative death-- the destruction of relationships, freedom, well-being, whatever.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Dang. I was hoping this thread would address the obvious grammatical error. Wages is plural; 'of sin' is a subordinate clause. Therefore the line should run, "The wages of sin are death."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Or wages (or wage) is a reward for what we do. So it is with sin.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Dang. I was hoping this thread would address the obvious grammatical error. Wages is plural; 'of sin' is a subordinate clause. Therefore the line should run, "The wages of sin are death."
Not according to these 20 or so translations.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
"of sin" is not a clause. It has no predicate. It's a prepositional phrase that is serving as an adjective.
[ 12. November 2014, 02:11: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts?
Yes. quote:
When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
And, yes.
Neither of the apparent poles in these two statements is exclusive to the other, though I, myself, incline toward the second of the two in each case.
[ 12. November 2014, 05:03: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
AIUI, wages is about consequences. We work, we get paid (at least in the environment it was written in - they never envisions such an oppressive regime as we have today), you sin, you die.
Of course "die" is not a single event. I think the English translations here are problematic (not saying they are technically wrong, just that they convey slightly different ideas today). As you sin, you die more. As you accept Jesus, you live more.
As you live as a Christian, as you stop sinning, you live more. So we are saved from the spiritual consequences of our sin, as we seek to be less sinful.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts?
Yes. quote:
When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
And, yes.
Neither of the apparent poles in these two statements is exclusive to the other, though I, myself, incline toward the second of the two in each case.
Ditto that.
Chanced upon a bit from Wisdom chapter 1 today that I thought might be pertinent.
quote:
Do not invite death by the error of your life,
or bring on destruction by the works of your hands;
13 because God did not make death,
and he does not delight in the death of the living.
14 For he created all things so that they might exist;
the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them,
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
15 For righteousness is immortal.
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a theological scrapbook
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is this not really a silly trope? Get people scared into surrendering themselves for the persuasive evangelical story that if you don't get that personal relationship conversion blood of the lamb idea as paying for all your sins, God will beat it out of your soul after sorting you out on the train platform with those who go one way getting the good reward, and those going the other, torture and burnt. God's trusty workers will even tear your mother, sister, child or spouse from your arms in the sorting, but because he loves you, kindly not asking you a Sophie's Choice question. God being a mean son of a bitch, but it you got Jesus, he's your mean son of a bitch.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
At the time the AV was produced, "wages" was often treated as a singular noun. There is therefore no mistake.
Similarly, in the UK the choir sing, while here in the USA the choir sings. No grammatical mistakes there, just different conceptions of the noun's number.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
Well, the death referred to isn't necessarily physical death. I tend to read it as spiritual death.
Sin is, simply, rebellion against God's commandments. We know better than he does. So sin ineluctably leads to separation from God, a rift in our relationship with him. But as the second part of that passage reads, "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"--meaning that we can be forgiven our sins, that the separation from our Creator need not be final.
I suppose if I had to plunk down on one side or the other, I'd say it was God's judgment. That seems most in accord with the revelation of God in Scripture. The second option you give is unsatisfactory to me, not least because it suggests that God doesn't have the right and authority to judge human beings.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
I believe something similar is happening not just with addiction, but with all sin. We begin by choosing the sin-- whether it's a lie, an attitude, bitterness, whatever-- but at some point we no longer choose, it has become so engrained in our character and habits that overcoming it is not unlike overcoming addiction. In some cases this leads to literal death, more often it is a figurative death-- the destruction of relationships, freedom, well-being, whatever.
Cliffdweller says it well. Here seems a good point to apologise to shipmate jbohn (I think) for nicking his sig some time ago - this was such a helpful revelation to me, I thought it good to get it out there whenever I post some forgettable shite or other of my own.
I take Paul's 'sin, when it is full-grown, leads to death' as a good guide for spotting what sin is. Ultimately leads to death? That'll be sin, then. The death comes as part of the deal - you don't get to chop your head off just for the experience, without the old corollary coming along with it. There is no 'why' - it all goes together as some kind of paired thing which exists by definition - someone else, help me put this better - my engineer's head doesn't hold the terms.
Talking of engineering and sin, the 7 deadlies (or Cassian's 8 thoughts) work as a rather nice set of orthogonal basis functions, by which one can decompose some-new-nasty into its familiar-old cardinal components, and thereby skewer it to some degree. A bit like RGB colour decomposition, or the 5 dimensions of (food) taste. But then I think Laplace transforms are rather neat...
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, the death referred to isn't necessarily physical death. I tend to read it as spiritual death.
I tend to read it a physical, but not eternal. The next verse though promises a free gift - new life in Christ Jesus. Without this second point the first part is meaningless.
So the wages of sin makes us no worse off, we die. It isn't God being vindictive, it is the natural order of things. But there is an offer to any who will accept it of new life.
Call me an annihilationist if you like.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Fr Weber quote:
The second option you give is unsatisfactory to me, not least because it suggests that God doesn't have the right and authority to judge human beings.
I didn't intend to mean that God has no right or authority to judge human beings. What I am suggesting, however, is that God's judgement, because of his nature, is not condemnatory of the sinner, but is a necessary diagnosis opening the possibility of healing and restoration. God's judgement, in other words, is not a death sentence but of hope for a new life. In this sense I agree with Origen that judgement should not be avoided but sought. The wages of sin are not paid by God.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
That's a sweet quote, Evensong.
Sweet? SWEET? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Is that like in sickly sweet or like awesome sweet? If it was the latter, I thought that was an Australianism!
[ 13. November 2014, 09:19: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To the OP: Dunno, but the hours are good! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Love wins
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Here seems a good point to apologise to shipmate jbohn (I think) for nicking his sig some time ago - this was such a helpful revelation to me, I thought it good to get it out there whenever I post some forgettable shite or other of my own
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
That was my reason, more or less, for choosing it in the first place.
It's something I wholly concur with - the damage we do to ourselves (physical/emotional/guilt/etc.) is the real punishment, it seems, for the sins we commit.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
A similar quote, this one from Frederick Buechner:
quote:
“To repent is to come to your senses. It is not so much something you do as something that happens. True repentance spends less time looking at the past and saying, ‘I’m sorry,’ than to the future and saying, ‘Wow!’”
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
jBohn quote:
....the damage we do to ourselves (physical/emotional/guilt/etc.) is the real punishment, it seems, for the sins we commit.
Thanks for focussing on "punishment". I suppose that's what I'm trying to get at. Does God punish us for our sins? If so, what kind of punishment does he hand out- is it a sliding scale? Does the punishment include "death" in the conventional sense and eternal death in a religious one. When I look at these issues in the gospels there appear to be conflicting messages e.g. in the parable of the Prodigal Son there is no question of punishment on the part of the father, but elsewhere there is "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth", sheep and goats, and a pretty fierce dies irae. I find it difficult to reconcile these strands.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
So I'm up to the end of chapter 3 of Wisdom now and I think it really speaks to this topic. Even has the "wages" idea!
quote:
and they did not know the secret purposes of God,
nor hoped for the wages of holiness ,
nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;
Wonder if Paul got the term from this scripture?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
When I look at these issues in the gospels there appear to be conflicting messages e.g. in the parable of the Prodigal Son there is no question of punishment on the part of the father
But he had his punishment for his own sins didn't he? Miserable life looking after pigs.
And was there no "eternal" punishment because he returned?
But I take your point. Hard stuff
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I think Swedenborg had it - we are here to reconnect to God, having disconnected - when spirits face God, they see light, but they also see the spirits/souls who are looking away from God - but the ones looking away only see what they have chosen to look at. Augustine tried to impose heavenly "rules" but only served to confuse, because the "rules" follow from being fully with the light and all actions deriving from that presence/connection. In which case, they are not rules, they are blindingly obvious and anything else feels wrong. The 7 commandments are a baseline - a bit like true Laws of our society. "You have free will, and can look whichever way you desire, and there is always forgiveness, but if you pass this line you are definitely well out of order, buddy, and there will be consequences regardless of forgiveness". I think the deaths are "little" deaths (if "little" is the right word) - they are deaths to Gods presence.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
jBohn quote:
....the damage we do to ourselves (physical/emotional/guilt/etc.) is the real punishment, it seems, for the sins we commit.
Thanks for focussing on "punishment". I suppose that's what I'm trying to get at. Does God punish us for our sins? If so, what kind of punishment does he hand out- is it a sliding scale? Does the punishment include "death" in the conventional sense and eternal death in a religious one. When I look at these issues in the gospels there appear to be conflicting messages e.g. in the parable of the Prodigal Son there is no question of punishment on the part of the father, but elsewhere there is "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth", sheep and goats, and a pretty fierce dies irae. I find it difficult to reconcile these strands.
I don't see the conflict; the son repents, pre-empting any fatherly punishment. Of course, the son's prior sufferings are caused entirely by his poor choices, and not necessarily by the father's agency, which I think aligns well with what you were getting at earlier.
The goats, and those who wind up in the outer darkness, are unrepentant. I think that's a key point to remember. If the prodigal son had never repented, he'd still be miserably slopping pigs for the Gentiles.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Fr Weber: I don't see the conflict; the son repents, pre-empting any fatherly punishment.
Punishment for what? I don't see the father wanting to punish the son.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
No, we don't. But the father seems perfectly willing to allow the son to suffer the consequences of his decisions.
On the other hand, that's only one parable. We also have the parable of the wicked servant who owes his lord some money, and the lord is preparing to throw him in debtors' prison at the beginning of the story (and indeed, when he learns of the servant's wickedness, hands him over to the tormentors at the end).
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Fr Weber: On the other hand, that's only one parable. We also have the parable of the wicked servant who owes his lord some money, and the lord is preparing to throw him in debtors' prison at the beginning of the story (and indeed, when he learns of the servant's wickedness, hands him over to the tormentors at the end).
Interestingly, that one has to do with money.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
I don't think the reception of the younger son is contingent on the prodigal's repentance because the father makes the first move and is motivated by pity.
But FrWeber is correct to refer to other parables in which there is punishment. ISTM that such parables are not directed against humanity in general but are aimed at the religious leaders who have kept the many apart from God with their heavy burdens. The NT anathemas seem particularly targeted.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Are the wages of sin death as a consequence of God's judgement, or a consequence of the negativity that arises from the commitment of sinful acts? When we pray that God will exercise mercy is it to save us from his wrath or from the consequences of sins committed by ourselves and others?
There's a lot of metaphors you can read this concept through--the money one, the court one, etc. etc. etc. And here Paul seems to be using the money one, at least for the moment. But the one that works best for me is considering that sin by its very nature cuts me off from the source of life himself, God. If you turn your back on the sun, you get shadows. It's a built-in consequence.
Asking for mercy in that situation is asking God to rescue us from the consequences of our own stupidity. As anyone knows who has ever owned a cat, there are traps you can get into by yourself that you can't get out of by yourself.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
I don't think the reception of the younger son is contingent on the prodigal's repentance because the father makes the first move and is motivated by pity.
But FrWeber is correct to refer to other parables in which there is punishment. ISTM that such parables are not directed against humanity in general but are aimed at the religious leaders who have kept the many apart from God with their heavy burdens. The NT anathemas seem particularly targeted.
There is a lot of detail in that one parable. Pity is a rather different emotion from compassion or love or happiness or peace after years of patience and waiting. If God pities us, then He pities his own creation. Not sure that works for me personally.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
The parable of the wicked servant is about a person who is forgiven a crushing debt, but who demands that a colleague pay his paltry debt on pain of being thrown into prison.
It's not about religious leaders particularly, more an illustration of "forgive as you hope to be forgiven."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Fr Weber quote:
The parable of the wicked servant is about a person who is forgiven a crushing debt, but who demands that a colleague pay his paltry debt on pain of being thrown into prison.
It's not about religious leaders particularly, more an illustration of "forgive as you hope to
Fr Weber, of course you are correct in this instance, though there are parables where the anathema is directed towards religious leaders eg. the parable of the owners of the vineyard and the parable of the talents.
I suppose what I ought to do is go through the gospels identifying those instances where punishment by God is mentioned and then to identify who the objects of condemnation are.
I get the impression that as far as St Paul is concerned the wages of sin are potentially paid out by God to the whole of humanity for its complicity in sin.
I also get the impression that most respondents to this post are reluctant to accept that over and above any negative consequences a sinner might bring upon himself/herself God hands out additional punishment. I, too, tend to lean towards that sentiment, but it is somewhat in defiance of some of the actions and teachings of Jesus. Perhaps the gospels are a problem for systematic theology!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I know what my sins have done to me. And others.
Killed. Killed me. Killed innocence. Killed potential.
All will be well.
In Christ.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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