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Source: (consider it) Thread: Angel of Justice?
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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A clear out of our church basement has unearthed a bronze (we think) statue, approx 18 inches high, very heavy. It is like the statue of justice, blindfolded and carrying a sword in its right hand. Whatever was in the left hand has been snapped off, but was obviously something hanging down, so presumably scales. And, unlike the statue of justice, it has an impressive set of wings.

We have no idea how old it is, but no-one recalls seeing it before, so it's presumably been tucked away for a few decades.

Does a blindfolded angel with a sword and scales have some significance or meaning? We are Presbyterians and baffled to find a bronze angel in our basement.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Sounds somewhat like Nike (winged Victory) except for the blindfold, and the thing in the downward hand would be a wreath.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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There's a couple of inches of downwards vertical rod in the left hand, which would fit with it being a set of scales. Though we don't know for sure.
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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There's a picture on this page (http://rattler.tamucc.edu/dept/special/Anthony.html) of a winged Justice, blindfold, sword and scales. So the wings are apparently rare but not unheard of.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
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Well it will not be the only example of justice with wings!

Jengie

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Thank you! So is Justice-with-wings supposed to be an angel? Is there some religious significance?
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dj_ordinaire
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It sounds like a symbol of God's Justice of some sort...

But I suppose that leaves unanswered the bigger question, viz. why do you have a statue of it?!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Indeed. I've been asked to figure out where it came from, and when, which might be easier if I knew what it was and what the significance of an angel of justice was.
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Lamb Chopped
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Well, I've run across a distinction between earthly justice (what you usually see) and heavenly justice (usually shown un-blindfolded, as this justice is in no danger of screwing up). But yours is still blindfolded, so it doesn't fit that tradition.

It could simply be that the artist managed to cross Justice and Victory, using both sets of symbolism on one statue. The wings would come from Victory (Nike), and the rest from Justice. It's a very easy thing to do, and may account for the winged examples we found up thread.

Alternately, they took a Greco-Roman symbol and attempted to lightly Christianize it by putting angels' wings on it.

[ 30. November 2014, 21:59: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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What I'm hoping is that a Shipmate will say "oh, we've got one of those in our church" and tell me a) what it is
b) how old it is
c) whether it's worth anything.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:
Alternately, they took a Greco-Roman symbol and attempted to lightly Christianize it by putting angels' wings on it.
That sounds likely. Given that it's in our church, albeit a dark corner of the basement, it must be, or have been thought to be, of religious significance.
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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
What I'm hoping is that a Shipmate will say "oh, we've got one of those in our church" and tell me a) what it is
b) how old it is
c) whether it's worth anything.

I think that to answer those questions you would have to get an actual specialist to look at it. Not even the late Arthur Negus could value a statue based on the description in the OP.

In the meantime: DON'T BLINK!

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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If your church building is anything like ours was, random items found in dark corners are just as likely to be missed leftovers from the rummage sale.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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True, LC. However, it's solid metal, and heavy. I can't lift it, which I think reduces the chances of it being a left-over from a church sale.

Callan:
quote:
In the meantime: DON'T BLINK!
Good advice!
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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
What I'm hoping is that a Shipmate will say "oh, we've got one of those in our church" and tell me a) what it is
b) how old it is
c) whether it's worth anything.

I think that to answer those questions you would have to get an actual specialist to look at it. Not even the late Arthur Negus could value a statue based on the description in the OP.

I'll rephrase. What I'm hoping is that a Shipmate will tell me that they have one (i.e. a blindfolded, sword carrying, winged figure) in their church (or have seen one in another church) and give me some context about their one, which might help me to research our one.
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L'organist
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Its likely to have been in the churchyard at some time.

The symbolism could be interpreted as follows:

The winged figure = an angel
The scales = weighing or balancing: good over evil, sin over virtue.
The sword = the sword of virtue and truth.
The blindfold = the weighing will be impartial since the angels won't be able to see the owner of the soul to be weighed.

So, likely to be an angel who decides on the merits of a soul whether or not the owner shall enter the heavenly kingdom.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Another strand for your enquiries, perhaps, would be to contact local foundries (or if they have closed search local archives for their records) to see if the figure is listed as having been cast by one of them.

I know Glasgow has pretty complete records for the Gray and Macfarlane foundries so you may be lucky.

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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This seems to cover some of the Lady Justice statue issues quite nicely. Though sadly nothing about why the figure might've been transformed into an angel. Interesting to see that the Old Bailey Lady Justice is not blindfolded. Explains a lot.

The Recording Angel is a Bible-based concept, I think? But I don't recall anything about blindfolded angels specifically with a sword in one hand and scales in the other. It would appear to be a Christianized form of a Pagan tradition.

Of course, weighing a person's worth in heavenly scales is a very ancient myth. The Ancient Egyptians had that thing where the heart of the dead Pharoah was reputedly weighed against the weight of a feather in a pair of scales to see how pure he was, eg.

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Adeodatus
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The combination of wings, sword and scales is sometimes also seen in depictions of St Michael. No blindfold usually, though (you can't slay dragons blindfolded). Pardon the indelicate question, but are we sure this is a female figure? - Victorian angels could sometimes be very androgynous.

Another - probably remote - possibility is that it may have once adorned a court building, and when it was no longer needed, given to the church for safe keeping. People sometimes don't like destroying statues, even in Presbyterian Scotland!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
Pardon the indelicate question, but are we sure this is a female figure? - Victorian angels could sometimes be very androgynous.
In profile it does appear to have breasts, though it has a small breastplate / large pendant which covers up the cleavage area.

Facially, the blindfold makes it hard to say whether it's male or female. Its hair is a bit longer than shoulder length, and it's got a sort of military Roman-style helmet on.

I'm sure it's female, though "androgynous female" would be accurate.

The wings are outspread. Each one measures 12 inches / 30cm, and there's 6 in / 15 cm between them, so at the widest point it's 2ft 6in /75cm across.

It's flat at the back, so presumably designed to stand flush with a wall.

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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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I googled for "angel of justice" and found a number of statues of St. Michael that seem to meet your description as well. Not sure why one of those would be in a Presbyterian basement, though!

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Here is a scenario that is totally in keeping with the culture. In the early twentieth century probably just carrying on from the 19th Century it was not uncommon for households to have statues of virtues and such around the house. My Grandparents had a couple that could sit on a mantle shelf (one male, one female).

So Great Aunt Desdemona has one of these; when she bought it, it was quite valuable. However, when she needs to move into a nursing home, it is too large and in pretty poor repair. Nobody in the family wants it so they donate it to the church; as the building is big enough to take the statue (no thoughts of suitability crosses the donors minds). The church does not like to throw something out as that might offend the family. So puts it in the cellar and tries to forget about it.

Jengie

[ 01. December 2014, 18:09: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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Unless the sculptor was an idiot (which is not impossible), it's very unlikely that the statue is intended to be St Michael. He doesn't wear a blindfold.

Ten to one it's a depiction of Justice, and the scenario Jengie Jon details is perfectly plausible. Between Presbyterian iconoclasm and the fact that the depiction isn't of any Christian or Biblical personage, it's not surprising that the church would decline to display it. Lord knows it's easy enough to mistake Presbyterian churches for courthouses. [Biased]

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L'organist
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posted by Adeodatus
quote:
Pardon the indelicate question, but are we sure this is a female figure? - Victorian angels could sometimes be very androgynous.
Err... Angels are MALE!

Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Gabriel - MALE.

If it has wings and is female then its a fairy.

Even the victorians got this - don't take my word for it, listen to the words of one of their favourite carols
quote:
The Angel Gabriel from heaven came,
His wings as drifted snow, his eyes as flame;
'All hail' said he, thou lonely maiden Mary...
etc.

That paraphrase is by Sabine Baring-Gould.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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I think Jengie is right - Aunt Desdemona's Justice-with-wings is currently lurking in our basement. It's too large and too heavy to have been a mantleplace ornament but no doubt in a previous life it was a trip-hazard in Aunt Desdemona's house.

Now we've found it, we'll have to decide what to do with it. We already have an embarrassing marble plaque in the basement we've been offering to museums, to no avail. Perhaps we could try a take-one-get-one-free offer - have our embarrassing marble plaque and get a Justice-with-wings too!

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Err... Angels are MALE!

Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Gabriel - MALE.

I've always heard that Angels are genderless.

(The four you mention are all Archangels.)

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Do you suppose it might have once been donated for a jumble sale/bring & buy, but didn't sell and got tucked away in the basement for a future sale but was then forgotten?
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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Adeodatus
quote:
Pardon the indelicate question, but are we sure this is a female figure? - Victorian angels could sometimes be very androgynous.
Err... Angels are MALE!

Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Gabriel - MALE.

If it has wings and is female then its a fairy.


Not being embodied, angels have no gender. Their names are grammatically masculine (as is the word 'angel' in both Hebrew and Greek), but that doesn't mean they are.

The difference between angels and fairies is not gender but existence.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Do you suppose it might have once been donated for a jumble sale/bring & buy, but didn't sell and got tucked away in the basement for a future sale but was then forgotten?

I think it's too big and heavy for that. I can't lift it, and I don't see something which takes two men to lift being a jumble sale item. But I could be wrong.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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It's not that unusual in my experience for people/groups/organizations that are going out of existence to donate their treasured-but-frankly-a-bit-weird items to the church, rather as some other people try to do with museums. I think it's sort of a equal-levels-of-solemnity thing. So if there once was a courthouse or such in the area and it closed down (or I suppose some kind of lawyers' organization), I could see the person tasked with getting rid of the effects saying to him/herself, "Hmmmm, what to do with this? Well, it looks like an angel, and it's got a lot of symbolic meaning, so to the church it goes."

It's in a slightly similar way that our old parish ended up holding items as diverse as an RC sacred heart painting and the photos and mementos of someone's stillborn baby.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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We're a village church so no courtroom or lawyer's organisation, but we do have an eclectic collection of stuff. The next closest church burned down in the 1950s, so we have a couple of memorial plaques which were salvaged from there, for example. Although since we had a graveyard round our church and they didn't, they buried their ministers in our graveyard, so having the memorials in our church doesn't seem odd.

But they were Free church i.e. even more Presbyterian than us, so justice-with-wings wouldn't have been theirs.

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's not that unusual in my experience for people/groups/organizations that are going out of existence to donate their treasured-but-frankly-a-bit-weird items to the church, rather as some other people try to do with museums.

You can say that again. I have to admit that whenever someone tells me they have something to donate and it isn't cash or food (sometimes even when it is food...), I proceed skeptically. I have been proved wrong on occasion, but only on occasion.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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[Killing me]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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I found a drawing of a winged, blindfolded justice but sculptures seem rare (though ebay has several 8" high made in China winged Themis). I would assume there is some sort of foundry mark somewhere.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Right on people giving churches their junk.

A church I know once gained a massive linen press that someone manhandled into the vestry one Sunday afternoon. No one owned up to dumping it so, after notice in local paper and magazine it was decided to sell it - made over £350 in the 1980s.

Our churchyard in the last year has gained 3 benches - no one owns up to putting them there, but since they're useful we'll keep them.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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american piskie
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How lucky is NEQ to be in Scotland!

South of the Border I am sure that the lawyers would want their fees for a retrospective faculty to permit the introduction of the unauthorised object into the parish church, and another set of fees for a faculty to dispose of it.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
How lucky is NEQ to be in Scotland!

South of the Border I am sure that the lawyers would want their fees for a retrospective faculty to permit the introduction of the unauthorised object into the parish church, and another set of fees for a faculty to dispose of it.

Are you thinking of the depressing saga of this derivative piece of tat from Cheltenham? It's frightened a lot of people. Nobody, except for the Chancellor, comes out of it with much credit. Possibly the person who ends up with the most egg on their face is the person from the Church Buildings Council. One gets the impression that until quite late on, he thought he was going to be commended for being zealous in the cause of righteousness. He ends up being forced to admit that it had never occurred to the CBC that it should consider the pastoral and mission needs of the church as having any relevance.

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Albertus
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# 13356

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The CBC did behave ridiculously there. But the Vicar and Churchwardens seemed not to understand their responsibilities as the people in whom the church and its contents were vested. They might not have liked having those responsibilities, but that's no excuse.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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That is scary! I've been trying to offload a late C18th marble memorial (currently propped against a wall in the basement) to any museum that wants it. I was asked verbally if I could get rid of it, and I've been acting off my own bat contacting people. We're not looking for money though.

Looks like we're stuck with it, as no one else wants it.

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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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I don't know what the law of the CoS is, but in that Cheltenham case (leaving aside the officious interference of the CBC) it would have been perfectly possible for the Vicar and Wardens to have got rid of the piece in question if they had followed the proper process. The Chancellor emphasised that the support and advice required to do this were freely available, but the parish authorities did not think that due process was important.

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Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

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# 13049

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I haven't the faintest idea if we have a process or not.

Our late C18th memorial wouldn't have any financial value, and would be far better in a museum than our basement.

It's a memorial to someone from our parish who made his fortune in the Caribbean, and who owned slaves there. He was killed during a slave uprising. Our church in the late C18th / early C19th was benefiting financially from slavery.

There are details of the memorial in some academic paper somewhere, but AFAIK, the memorial itself is listed as having been "lost" during church renovations. It's not "lost," it's propped against a wall in our basement.

I haven't a scooby if there are regulations about this sort of object.

Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
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# 13356

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Best to boot it up the line, then, just to cover your back: I'm sure that if nothing else there'd be someone at the Church's head office in Edinburgh who might be able to advise. Must be worth a phone call.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
venbede
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# 16669

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What I find depressing is the utter contempt shown for those, like me or millions of working class women, who find the place of Mary in the Christian faith very important.

That church was indeed not the best place for the picture, but they could have some respect towards those who would appreciate it. Or "her".

Or indeed some idea that a C19 painting could have any value.

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Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Oh, you need to meet the incumbent of the parish where I live, who informed me 'I've no time for the Virgin Mary, the church would be better off without her'.

I know, where to start? [Killing me]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Err... Angels are MALE!

Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Gabriel - MALE.

If it has wings and is female then its a fairy.

Even the victorians got this - don't take my word for it, listen to the words of one of their favourite carols
quote:
The Angel Gabriel from heaven came,
His wings as drifted snow, his eyes as flame;
'All hail' said he, thou lonely maiden Mary...
etc.

That paraphrase is by Sabine Baring-Gould.
Have you seen any Preraphaelite paintings lately? If some of those angels are male, they're the kind of male who likes nothing better of an evening than to relax with a manicure while there's show tunes playing on the hi-fi.

(Adeodatus wanders off, thinking about his cuticles and humming "What good is sitting alone in your room....")

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Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know what the law of the CoS is, but in that Cheltenham case (leaving aside the officious interference of the CBC) it would have been perfectly possible for the Vicar and Wardens to have got rid of the piece in question if they had followed the proper process. The Chancellor emphasised that the support and advice required to do this were freely available, but the parish authorities did not think that due process was important.

Possibly, though I suspect if the CBC had butted itself in earlier, they'd have ended up either being told they'd got to keep it or expected to give it to a museum in stead of getting away with treating it as a piece of endowment which had unexpectedly gone up in value. After all, if a bit of glebe or part of the vicarage garden suddenly becomes suitable for building, nobody ever seems to suggest that this should be preserved as part of the history of the church.

Nobody now knows or is likely to find out, but from what one knows of the history of artistic taste, the painting in question is likely to have been picked up in the 1930s in a shop in Camden or somewhere for £3-4. The owners would have thought, 'we're downsizing and don't know what to do with it. Let's give it to the church' much like NEQ's bronze statue.

If it's mysteriously in fashion, and temporarily fetches more than it's worth, it's better that it was sold at the top of the market. It's nowhere been suggested it was wonder-working.

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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Don't be do biased Adeodatus: any angel with well-manicured hands, a fondness for Judy Garland and in-depth knowledge of Michael Wilding-Anna Neagle musicals would fit right into many all-male clergy houses I can think of... [Biased]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Possibly, though I suspect if the CBC had butted itself in earlier, they'd have ended up either being told they'd got to keep it or expected to give it to a museum in stead of getting away with treating it as a piece of endowment which had unexpectedly gone up in value.

As they apparently wanted to get rid of it and only later thought that it might be of value, I don't see why they didn't offer it to the museum. If any of them were familiar with Cheltenham Art Gallery and Museum (or whatever it calls itself these days), they should have known that it would have fitted in very well with the existing collection. [Razz]

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Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Err... Angels are MALE!

Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Gabriel - MALE.

If it has wings and is female then it's a fairy.

Or, alternatively, the Archangel Haniel, though Gabriel is also said to have taken female form on occasion.

Admittedly most of the well-known bright angels have names/roles that are classed as male. Haniel is one notable exception. Not surprisingly perhaps, you'll find rather more female angels in the ranks of the dark angels than in the heavenly hosts. The female dark angels tend to be described as very beautiful and there are no prizes for guessing what their role is supposed to be.

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:


Our late C18th memorial wouldn't have any financial value, and would be far better in a museum than our basement.

It's a memorial to someone from our parish who made his fortune in the Caribbean, and who owned slaves there. He was killed during a slave uprising. Our church in the late C18th / early C19th was benefiting financially from slavery.

There are details of the memorial in some academic paper somewhere, but AFAIK, the memorial itself is listed as having been "lost" during church renovations. It's not "lost," it's propped against a wall in our basement.


Quite a bit of academic work has recently gone into studying Scottish connections to the slave trade, so the memorial might be better off going to a university that's known for this kind of research rather than a random museum. The academic who listed the item as lost would surely love to be informed of its existence.

A local university might also be able to help you with your strange statue.

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