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Source: (consider it) Thread: What historical information could make you lose faith?
seekingsister
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CNN reports that the Mormon church has quietly published some articles on its website addressing some historical controversies in the church. The one making waves is an admission that Joseph Smith had 30-40 wives in total, including at least one teenager and several who were already married to other men. Also that his first wife was not happy with it and did not consent to most of them, contrary to previous claims. The article is here.

The reaction among Mormons seems to be mostly that A) they kind of already knew this and B) they're still going to stay part of the LDS church.

To critics of the church it confirms some of their accusations - that Joseph Smith invented polygamy to indulge in his own desires, that the church lied and covered up the truth about its early history.

It makes me wonder what I would have to learn about the founders of Christianity (or a specific denomination) that would cause me to lose my faith. Does it matter that Christianity's founders lived 2000 years ago, while Joseph Smith's behavior was out of line with contemporary standards in the 1800s when he engaged in these actions? I'd like to think that it does - but then I wonder if it's just the same sort of rationalization that Mormons are doing.

So - is there anything you could learn (or that the church could reveal) that would make you lose faith?

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

So - is there anything you could learn (or that the church could reveal) that would make you lose faith?

Faith in what? The Church? I don't have any faith in the Church anyway.

In God? No, I don't think so, I have tried to lose my faith in God, tried hard and not succeeded.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Faith in what? The Church?

That depends on one's denomination I suppose. For an RC loss of faith in their church might be equivalent to loss of faith in Christianity entirely.

It could be either.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I have tried to lose my faith in God, tried hard and not succeeded.

My best friend, a Jew whose parents escaped Nazi Germany, cannot reconcile God and the Holocaust.

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Sipech
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It seems right that there has to be some falsification criteria, otherwise one falls foul of Antony Flew's critique. For me, I would take Paul's view as espoused in 1 Corinthians 15:
quote:
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised.
If Jesus remains dead, then one is left with a choice: 1) Jesus is not, and never was, God incarnate; or 2) Nietzsche was right and God is dead. If either of these is right, then there may be some remnant of a faith left, but I couldn't call it christianity.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I suppose that if there were some definitive proof - purely a hypothetical, since I don't think there could be - that Jesus of Nazareth never lived (i.e., is pure mythology), it would make my sacramental Christianity rather pointless, as well as more broadly my prayer life as a Christian. What it wouldn't do, however, is change my intellectual subscription to theism itself, in terms of believing in an ultimate source possessing agency that gives rise to all that is. I suppose I would quit trying, though, to commune with this Ground of Being via any sort of faith in, or prayer to, a God that can at all be apprehended at a personal level. But who knows?

Also, it wouldn't affect my belief in the value of much of the teaching and vision put forth in the New Testament.

[ 11. November 2014, 16:06: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

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Gamaliel
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If they found the grave of Jesus of Nazareth with his remains in it and proof positive that this was the Jesus of the Gospels.

Then we'd be finished.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Gamaliel: If they found the grave of Jesus of Nazareth with his remains in it and proof positive that this was the Jesus of the Gospels.

Then we'd be finished.

Why?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If they found the grave of Jesus of Nazareth with his remains in it and proof positive that this was the Jesus of the Gospels.

Then we'd be finished.

Or some theologians would be challenged by this proof that Jesus actually existed.

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SvitlanaV2
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I don't know how you'd be able to convince the world that this 'proof' wasn't simply some sort of Illuminati con.

Most of us have to take the word of specialists when it comes to all sorts of things, but religion is perhaps resistant to being killed in this way. It usually just transforms itself gradually into something else.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Or some theologians would be challenged by this proof that Jesus actually existed.

HAH! What's sad is that I can see that actually happening in such a situation...

I might as well throw my thoughts in, since I started the discussion. What would make me lose faith?

- the verified remains of Jesus

- evidence that the Apostles never themselves believed in the Resurrection (i.e. they were selling what they knew to be a scam)

I think I could find a way around most anything else. But the first would mean what I believe about Jesus isn't true, and the second would mean that the church is based on a lie that invalidates it entirely.

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Brenda Clough
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The Jews have wrestled with similar issues from time to time. The way there is little archaeological proof of King David, that kind of thing.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
What would make me lose faith?

- the verified remains of Jesus

- evidence that the Apostles never themselves believed in the Resurrection (i.e. they were selling what they knew to be a scam)

I think I could find a way around most anything else. But the first would mean what I believe about Jesus isn't true, and the second would mean that the church is based on a lie that invalidates it entirely.

That sums it up for me, seekingsister.

I don't believe the apostles were peddling a scam because they don't appear to have been getting what I would associate with scammers: money, chicks and worldly power. It's why I have zero use for Muhammad and what he was peddling. That, and Matthew being one of them because he was a tax collector. I can't think of anything short of a miracle that would want the others to do anything with him except have a fist fight.

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Amanda in the South Bay
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Evidence of Jesus' physical remains might invalidate the resurrection, but is it possible to still have a more or less Ebionite Christianity that conforms with that? Its entirely possible to imagine a Jewish Christianity with a very low Christology and that views Pauline Christianity as going off the deep end.
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LeRoc

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quote:
Amanda in the South Bay: Evidence of Jesus' physical remains might invalidate the resurrection
I thought it would invalidate the Ascension.

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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I grew up in a church that taught that Jesus' body is still in the grave, the "resurrection" was the memory of him inspiring the apostles. (TEC, 1950s). One of the few sermons I remember specified that any good person, theist or atheist, goes to heaven. (Good, of course, meant middle class values.)

That church turned me into an agnostic (maybe there's a God maybe there isn't, but it doesn't matter) because I saw no point spending a morning sitting on uncomfortable benches and enduring a boring program if whatever God might (or might not) exist didn't care.

Later God came to me in what I guess people call visions. So my faith is not at all based on the historical story, nor on the church program, but on experience.

The story helps keep us focused on what god are we talking about, what personality characteristics and values and goals and nature of broader reality. But don't most people who keep going to church feel personally touched by the experience - even if just a hint of peace or that somehow it will all make sense? The story is a vehicle that gets them into some sort of connecting with God, but the connection is what matters. (Just thinking out loud here.)

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Horseman Bree
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There are quite a few ideas that could wipe out my faith.

- A firm proof that God intended for women to be mere possessions, or some form of inferior human.

- A clear proof that, although God created LGBT people*, He thinks they are not His "children" in the same way that the rest of us are.

- That priests, ministers or other humans in authority are in some way defined as so special that they can do no wrong, and that they are allowed to act as they see fit.

- That large parts of the OT are actually instructions, not stories about what NOT to do.

* God obviously created the situation in which LGBTs could exist, since even Satan doesn't have the power to create. If there is a second Creator floating around, then the mess becomes untenable.

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Doublethink.
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All those things entail there being a God though, just one you don't feel is worth worshipping.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Autenrieth Road

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I appreciate the Antony Flew link from Sipech. Flew mentions these as examples of religious assertions: "God has a plan," "God created the world," "God loves us as a father loves his children."

To all three I'm a "no." So maybe I've already lost my faith. And yet there are things that I retain that seem important. That leaves me with an entirely internally contradictory set of beliefs, which I've given up trying to reconcile, and just accept that that's what I have.

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Truth

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Moo

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Would someone please explain exactly how a 2000-year-old body could be definitely identified as that of Jesus?

Even if it really were, how could anyone be sure?

Moo

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Autenrieth Road

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Well, there you have it. No historical information could ever make anyone lose faith, because they'd just say "how can you be sure?" And, "that's not what my tradition says, so I don't believe it." And so on. Not even for the sake of a thought experiment about if such-and-such historical fact could be surely known, etc., can it be contemplated that anything could be known that would challenge faith.

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Doublethink.
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Well they have reliably identified King Richard and Tutenkhamun, I suppose it would be just about possible - a crucified body, with a stab wound and a geneology buried with it maybe ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Well they have reliably identified King Richard and Tutenkhamun, I suppose it would be just about possible - a crucified body, with a stab wound and a geneology buried with it maybe ?

AIUI, Richard was identified by comparing the DNA of the skeleton with the DNA of known modern-day relatives.

I know less about King Tut, but I assumed that there was some sort of identification within the tomb.

Moo

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Doublethink.
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Yes, inscriptions - though latterly they have also done dna comparisons to other royal burials in the area.

But Jesus being buried with a genology, a scroll of his lineage back to David or something, would have a similar sort of evidential weight to an inscription - provided it could be carbon dated or otherwise authenticated as going into the grave at the same time as the body.

Because after all faking Jesus death like that with a random stolen body, would have been totally pointless if no one was ever alerted to his death.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Moo

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Was it customary among Jews at the time to bury a body with a genealogy? I have never heard of this.

Moo

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Doublethink.
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I have no idea, but I imagine you might if you thought you were burying the messiah.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have several bishops and others professing to be Christians whilst denying some of the basic generally accepted historical tenets of Christianity, like Jesus' divinity and all the miraculous goings on with his life and death?

It seems to me that while faith has a positive correlation with historical facts, it does not rely upon them. The alleged "facts" Christianity relies on are like those games of "telephone" or Chinese Whispers, where a story is told and retold before being written down. We really don't have a consistent factual record as it stands, and we cannot have one, so the details are not so important. Stories necessarily change as they are retold, with details invented, characters changes, settings and timing altered. The content is made to fit the teller's perspective and situation, and response to audience. We don't know that the bible and history of the faith as received is reliable history, thus, new historical info makes little difference. The main thrust and message remain intact.

Thus, my response to the OP is that there really isn't any historical info that would cause loss of my faith. Only alteration and adaptation. Unless something completely ridiculous was proposed, like God is really Satan, and Satan is masquerading as God, who is imprisoned somewhere. (isn't this in a graphic novel or comic somewhere, since the gnostics invented such ideas so long ago, and we never actually write new stories?)

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Moo

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AIUI the customary burial practice was to lay the body on a shelf in a tomb and leave it there until there was nothing left but bones. Then the bones were put into a jar called an ossuary.

I believe the ossuary was labelled with the name of the dead person and the name of his father.

Moo

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Martin60
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But Horseman Bree! That would make you orthodox!!

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Jay-Emm
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And of course there's the Tardis (A Clarke has a lens that happens to confirm his view).

And I think that's enough for us to conceptually imagine the evidence.

I don't think there's much barring a really bizzare set of circumstances that would come up realistically.

So I think it's one of the things that is so foundational it ought to be on the list. But so unevidentional that it ought to be pointed ought that it's Theoretical not Practical.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There are quite a few ideas that could wipe out my faith.

- A firm proof that God intended for women to be mere possessions, or some form of inferior human.

- A clear proof that, although God created LGBT people*, He thinks they are not His "children" in the same way that the rest of us are.

- That priests, ministers or other humans in authority are in some way defined as so special that they can do no wrong, and that they are allowed to act as they see fit.

- That large parts of the OT are actually instructions, not stories about what NOT to do.

* God obviously created the situation in which LGBTs could exist, since even Satan doesn't have the power to create. If there is a second Creator floating around, then the mess becomes untenable.

This is a remarkably personal list, I must say. Why are gender/sexuality the only forms of discrimination or actions in the Bible that, if proven to actually be the will of God, would make you give up on Christianity? Not slavery or racism? Not violent war and conflicts in the OT?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
There are quite a few ideas that could wipe out my faith.

- A firm proof that God intended for women to be mere possessions, or some form of inferior human.

- A clear proof that, although God created LGBT people*, He thinks they are not His "children" in the same way that the rest of us are.

- That priests, ministers or other humans in authority are in some way defined as so special that they can do no wrong, and that they are allowed to act as they see fit.

- That large parts of the OT are actually instructions, not stories about what NOT to do.

* God obviously created the situation in which LGBTs could exist, since even Satan doesn't have the power to create. If there is a second Creator floating around, then the mess becomes untenable.

This is a remarkably personal list, I must say. Why are gender/sexuality the only forms of discrimination or actions in the Bible that, if proven to actually be the will of God, would make you give up on Christianity? Not slavery or racism? Not violent war and conflicts in the OT?
Aren't those covered in point 4?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
All those things entail there being a God though, just one you don't feel is worth worshipping.

If faith is covenantal and relational rather than propositional, then that is loss of faith.

It's a loss of faith I fear as much as the simple propositional one, to be honest. More, perhaps - no God and after death I'm back as I was before birth - a God who's a right git and I've got to spend eternity with him or being tormented at his behest, apparently.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:

This is a remarkably personal list, I must say. Why are gender/sexuality the only forms of discrimination or actions in the Bible that, if proven to actually be the will of God, would make you give up on Christianity? Not slavery or racism? Not violent war and conflicts in the OT?

Aren't those covered in point 4?
There's slavery in the New Testament.

[code]

[ 12. November 2014, 10:14: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have several bishops and others professing to be Christians whilst denying some of the basic generally accepted historical tenets of Christianity, like Jesus' divinity and all the miraculous goings on with his life and death? [...]

Sure, TEC bishops Pike & Spong come immediately to mind, along with Robinson in England, and Richard Holloway in Scotland.

Plenty more bishops undoubtedly think it, but lack the guts to say so in public. Their yellowbellied silence makes things so much harder for Christians who share their doubts, Christians who should feel confident and secure in their beliefs, and who should be able to expect their fellow believers to treat them with warmth and respect.

Setting aside miracles and a physical resurrection is a thoroughly mainstream view in theological circles. Getting it accepted in the public consciousness is gonna take much longer, but with the information revolution, I'm hopeful it'll happen.

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Al Eluia

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# 864

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda in the South Bay:
Evidence of Jesus' physical remains might invalidate the resurrection, but is it possible to still have a more or less Ebionite Christianity that conforms with that? Its entirely possible to imagine a Jewish Christianity with a very low Christology and that views Pauline Christianity as going off the deep end.

That's sort of what I was thinking. I might still label myself some kind of Jesus-follower in that case. Unless it were proven that Jesus never existed. I think that would do it for me.

And if it were proven that Henry VIII just broke with Rome to divorce his wife, goodbye Episcopal Church! [Smile]

[ 12. November 2014, 20:39: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
But Horseman Bree! That would make you orthodox!!

There are many parts of Orthodox thought that leave me cold, not just those I cited.

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It's Not That Simple

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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I think you'll find that many Anglicans (Episcopalians) would agree that Henry VIII broke with Rome just so that he could divorce his wife.

If Rome had sanctioned the divorce I don't think Henry would have broken from Rome at all ... which isn't to say that some kind of split from Rome wouldn't have developed at some time or other.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Meanwhile, I think it would be possible to have an Ebionite form of Christianity - or some kind of 'truncated' form of the faith - if I can be cheeky and put it that way - if Christ's remains were dug up in Palestine.

In fact, such a position already exists. It's the one that Byron and other liberals hold.

It's pretty much a spongy Spong position and it's been a view in some quarters for many a long day - as Belle Ringer has indicated it was the 'norm' in the Episcopalian church of her childhood and had probably been so for a long time before that.

I must admit, though, I do find it a bit condescending to be told that thanks to the wonder of modern communication methods and technology the benighted beliefs of those of us who still hold to some kind of supernaturalist faith and a belief in the Resurrection will soon be replaced by a Spongoid apprehension of the truth ...

[Paranoid]

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think you'll find that many Anglicans (Episcopalians) would agree that Henry VIII broke with Rome just so that he could divorce his wife.

If Rome had sanctioned the divorce I don't think Henry would have broken from Rome at all ... which isn't to say that some kind of split from Rome wouldn't have developed at some time or other.

Henry VIII breaking with Rome was a bit more complicated than that! The Sack of Rome by the Holy Roman Emperor's troops and the Pope being completely under the HRE's thumb was you know, fairly important too.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Or some theologians would be challenged by this proof that Jesus actually existed.

HAH! What's sad is that I can see that actually happening in such a situation...

I might as well throw my thoughts in, since I started the discussion. What would make me lose faith?

- the verified remains of Jesus

- evidence that the Apostles never themselves believed in the Resurrection (i.e. they were selling what they knew to be a scam)

I think I could find a way around most anything else. But the first would mean what I believe about Jesus isn't true, and the second would mean that the church is based on a lie that invalidates it entirely.

The second would cause me to lose my faith. The first probably wouldn't. The question then becomes what evidence would convince me that the apostles knew the resurrection was a scam and they were selling a lie. Honestly, I can't imagine any evidence coming to light that would convince me the apostles knowingly lied. What would it be? Why would such evidence have ever existed in the first place? Why would it still exist and yet be unknown?

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
originally posted by Byron:
Plenty more bishops undoubtedly think it, but lack the guts to say so in public. Their yellowbellied silence makes things so much harder for Christians who share their doubts, Christians who should feel confident and secure in their beliefs, and who should be able to expect their fellow believers to treat them with warmth and respect.

Oh...I respect Unitarians just not the ones carrying around a crozier.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think you'll find that many Anglicans (Episcopalians) would agree that Henry VIII broke with Rome just so that he could divorce his wife.

If Rome had sanctioned the divorce I don't think Henry would have broken from Rome at all ... which isn't to say that some kind of split from Rome wouldn't have developed at some time or other.

Henry VIII breaking with Rome was a bit more complicated than that! The Sack of Rome by the Holy Roman Emperor's troops and the Pope being completely under the HRE's thumb was you know, fairly important too.
That explains why it ended up being a break at all, rather than a minor spat that was later mended, but doesn't change Henry's motivation.

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The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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What historical information could make you lose faith?

What a sterile parlor game this question is!

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Meanwhile, I think it would be possible to have an Ebionite form of Christianity - or some kind of 'truncated' form of the faith - if I can be cheeky and put it that way - if Christ's remains were dug up in Palestine.

In fact, such a position already exists. It's the one that Byron and other liberals hold.

It's pretty much a spongy Spong position and it's been a view in some quarters for many a long day - as Belle Ringer has indicated it was the 'norm' in the Episcopalian church of her childhood and had probably been so for a long time before that.

I must admit, though, I do find it a bit condescending to be told that thanks to the wonder of modern communication methods and technology the benighted beliefs of those of us who still hold to some kind of supernaturalist faith and a belief in the Resurrection will soon be replaced by a Spongoid apprehension of the truth ...

[Paranoid]

That's not what I said: I said I hoped that such a view would come to be treated with respect.

Liberals have, IMO, been far too meek in response to abuse and sneering from so many fellow Christians. Probably 'cause many dislike confrontation, and want to be tolerant.

Hey, I'm all for tolerance, but it's gotta be mutual. If a person shows me no respect, they get none back. [Cool]

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh...I respect Unitarians just not the ones carrying around a crozier.

I trust you were as forthright with your professors in seminary? [Devil]
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
And if it were proven that Henry VIII just broke with Rome to divorce his wife, goodbye Episcopal Church! [Smile]

Hardly. If for no other reason than that TEC is only connected to Henry's split from Rome in about the same degree that the Methodists are. Once you posit an alternate history it's hard to be certain of anything. Without reformation in England (and Scotland?), would the Lutherans have been wiped out by a united Roman Catholic opposition?
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Setting aside miracles and a physical resurrection is a thoroughly mainstream view in theological circles.

That's why it's best to avoid such circles like the plague.
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An die Freude
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# 14794

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Without reformation in England (and Scotland?), would the Lutherans have been wiped out by a united Roman Catholic opposition?

In the 30 years' war the French bought your asses off with Swedish-led German mercenaries, so I'm not really sure the Catholics were ever either united or modern enough to take out the Lutherans in the North.

"We kicked ass at Breitenfeld,
We kicked ass in Prague.
We kicked the ass out of the Catholic League,
in a race where we had no dog!

We've kicked the ass of Poland
and we'll kick that of the French!
and as for Mother Russia,
we'll just kick until they're quenched!"
- Ode to old Swedish military victories, to be sung to the "There ain't but one way song" melody, and preferably before 1709.

[ 13. November 2014, 07:06: Message edited by: An die Freude ]

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Setting aside miracles and a physical resurrection is a thoroughly mainstream view in theological circles.

That's why it's best to avoid such circles like the plague.
And to think religion's gotten itself a rep for anti-intellectualism. [Snigger]
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Gamaliel
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# 812

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And which is why, Byron, I'm more respectful towards liberals than my previous post might suggest ...

Because as soon as Ad Orientem slags anyone off it creates an equal and opposite reaction in me that wants to embrace whoever he's having a go at with both arms ...

[Big Grin]

More seriously, is it necessarily a sign of anti-intellectualism to take a more 'supernaturalist' approach?

I've got to be honest - I'm in a cleft stick here.

For whilst, on one level, I can appreciate Belle Ringer's position re the TEC parish of her childhood, her talk of 'visions' and so on is enough to send me running to my local branch of the Secular Society ...

[Help]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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