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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: christmas for the faith-free
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
I’ve been rather disconnected from christmas for some time but this year it seems more ‘foreign’ somehow. I find myself having to deconstruct it all – when I see stuff in the shops or when people wish me a happy Christmas or carols are sung on the box.
Don’t get me wrong – I approve of the partying (‘though I am not a party person) and the sharing of simple gifts and the joining together for meals.
Do I miss-out because of my non-belief? I don’t think so, I let the religious stuff go by me so far as I can.
Is christmas less significant for you as a result of being faith-free?
And to get you going – don’t say I didn’t warn you – this morning I received this
silly song
from a member of my family. I don’t totally understand it, perhaps because it seems to be American humour, but for me it is YUK.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Oddly enough, Christmas means more to me being church-free. I am able to avoid the sentimental crap around it - I don't do carol services, twee kids services, all of the religious junk around the festival. I can instead focus on what it actually means to me. It is a celebration, and I love to celebrate.
I suppose I celebrate it as a mid-winter festival - it is the bringing of light into the world, and that is epitomised by Jesus birth. In the darkest time, God comes to save - and that is fantastic, something to be celebrated. But I do that individually, not corporately, because my perspective on what I am celebrating is rather different from most other people.
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Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
I suspect you're far from alone, SC. This short piece by Milton Jones caught Mrs Snags' eye the other day. I'd quite like to see him expand on what he's hinting at, as it leaves too much room to read in my own assumptions, but I think it's intended as more a thoughtful stance then a grumpy separatist one.
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Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Snags - I am sure there are others. But not everyone. And Milton Jones is ALWAYS good - I do tend to agree with him on stuff. He has a very well thought out theology, even if he might not consider it "theology".
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Personally as the years go by I find it harder and harder to be anything other than grumpy about Christmas.
Clients all use it as an arbitrary but somehow immovable deadline for projects of all sorts. Usually ones only communicated a few weeks previously. So that's a load of un-looked for pressure.
The clients that don't use it as a deadline usually manage to drop in "Can you do X?", "Yes, but there'll be some downtime", "Couldn't you do it over Christmas whilst we're all off?", "Do you want to think about that statement?".
Then you get church. It's Christmas, so there are extra services. And everyone wants them to be extra special. So all of a sudden on top of keeping the normal stuff ticking over, there's a load of additional requirement to organise, rehearse, smooth feathers etc.
By the time it gets to Christmas Eve I count it a major victory if I haven't actively and seriously threatened to kill someone (and in person I am a total wimp), or said "Fuck" in church at a point where people who don't know me well enough to cope actually overhear.
(For the record, I failed the last goal last night at a carol service rehearsal, so I may as well just move to the physical violence now).
[===============ETA================]
Oops, that turned into a bit of a Hellish rant.
What I meant to also say is that I normally manage to take a few moments the day after Boxing Day to actually reflect more positively on the Incarnation, and the gift of a small but loving and relatively sane family, something I am profoundly grateful for.
[ 18. December 2014, 14:10: Message edited by: Snags ]
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
On Sunday me and some of my equally faith-free mates will go down the pub and celebrate the winter solstice. This is as near to a Christmas celebration as we get these days. It is a real thing that we can all hold on to, from Sunday the days are getting longer and we are back on the way to spring. Christmas can then come and go without anyone feeling they are missing anything.
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Funny to see this thread.
I commented to my nearly die-hard Athiest friend only yesterday that this was my first 'angry Christmas'. I've been pretty much out of churches for about seven years now but had always felt pushed out rather than voluntarily out. I always loved Christmas (and Easter, and Lent) and clung quite tightly to the rituals around it.
This year, in the face of being old kindly that I didn't need to live my gay lifestyle anymore, by a Catholic priest I am in a red vitriolic rage at everything authoritarian and dogmatic about Christianity. I went to a carol service the other week because I wanted to and of course there was Bible reading there and I just again got ANGRY at the hypocrisy and smugness of all the 'we welcome and value all'. I of course expect and support the right of churches to 'do Christianity' at these things but I fear my anger is stopping me from going near it.
I am sad about that.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I was amused to read in this autobiography that a woman who abandoned the Plymouth Brethren for atheism was finally free to celebrate Christmas!
In the UK, Christmas belongs to everyone who wants it. It needn't carry any religious connotations whatsoever.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
Funny to see this thread.
This year, in the face of being old kindly that I didn't need to live my gay lifestyle anymore, by a Catholic priest I am in a red vitriolic rage at everything authoritarian and dogmatic about Christianity. I went to a carol service the other week because I wanted to and of course there was Bible reading there and I just again got ANGRY at the hypocrisy and smugness of all the 'we welcome and value all'. I of course expect and support the right of churches to 'do Christianity' at these things but I fear my anger is stopping me from going near it.
I am sad about that.
Oh dear.
Personally I went to the local Unitarian Universalist church's 3rd day of Hanukkah meal (potato latkes and apple sauce which I helped prepare) last night, good fun (though as usual there were miscalculations in amount of food). I may go to a Christmas Eve service (not UU) though I'm a bit unsure of the minister (she'll likely be fine on LGBT issues given her background but I think she is a bit wary of atheists).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
There is the christmas that is around us in shops, television, etc which we can ignore or deconstruct as we wish. Then there is the christmas that is thrust upon us by people who know we are faith-free but who still, as happened to me this morning, send stupid religious video cards, soppy, sentimental stuff that even some decent Christians would find silly. I made it clear to this person that I no longer believe and here they are trying to influence me by rehearsing the sweet little baby in a manger / shepherds / wise men etc story. Argghh, it makes me angry. Why can't they leave me alone? Perhaps, as someone said, they don't want me to go to hell.
No apology for the hellish rant. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
On the other hand, I had occasion to meet with a research doctor and his secretary this morning - what a difference - kindred spirits I discovered. Respect and openness - so refreshing.
I know which experience I will take with me through the christmas season.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Net Spinster:
quote:
I may go to a Christmas Eve service (not UU) though I'm a bit unsure of the minister (she'll likely be fine on LGBT issues given her background but I think she is a bit wary of atheists).
Exactly what goes on at Christmas Eve services around your way?!
I've been to a fairly wide variety in my time, and I don't remember ever getting in to any situation where my sexuality, religious belief, or views thereon would have come into play. Obviously midnight communions tend to have a teensy bit of a Jesus theme, but no special expectation on the congregation, surely?
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
There is the christmas that is around us in shops, television, etc which we can ignore or deconstruct as we wish. Then there is the christmas that is thrust upon us by people who know we are faith-free but who still, as happened to me this morning, send stupid religious video cards, soppy, sentimental stuff that even some decent Christians would find silly.
First world problems! (As the kids would say.)
In the UK there are relatively few religious Christmas cards available, and the ones with Santa Claus, reindeer and fires burning on the hearth are far more likely to be 'soppy' and 'sentimental', than their religious counterparts, I'd say. The only exception to that is cards that represent cartoon images of little children in Nativity plays.
However, it's hard for me to understand how a Nativity scene (sentimental or not) on a card would really work as evangelism. I don't think most people spend much time analysing Christmas cards once they've received them and put them on display.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Totally agree! Except us angry heretics who haven't yet quite come to terms with the past.
BTW I don't see the efforts of my friend as evangelism - I was in but now am out. (I refrain from saying 'I once was blind but now I see'
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Oh, I thought your complaint was that these people were hoping to bring you back into the fold by way of soppy Nativity scenes. If you don't think they were trying to do that then what were they doing? Were they simply trying to get on your nerves?
Or perhaps they had a bumper box of religious Christmas cards for all their church friends, and weren't going to buy a single (and more expensive) non-religious card just for you!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 19. December 2014, 19:27: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
The card didn't cost them a penny - it was an email video card!
And it did get on my nerves. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Sorry about 'evangelism' - I was over-reacting to the use of the word in what I saw as a very narrow sense: obviously you weren't using it in that way.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Net Spinster:
quote:
I may go to a Christmas Eve service (not UU) though I'm a bit unsure of the minister (she'll likely be fine on LGBT issues given her background but I think she is a bit wary of atheists).
Exactly what goes on at Christmas Eve services around your way?!
I've been to a fairly wide variety in my time, and I don't remember ever getting in to any situation where my sexuality, religious belief, or views thereon would have come into play. Obviously midnight communions tend to have a teensy bit of a Jesus theme, but no special expectation on the congregation, surely?
My concern is perhaps more over the long run than Christmas Eve itself.
The church is the University chapel which I attend fairly regularly (there is a small contingent of atheists attending, though I suspect most are in the choir, as well as other non-Christians, a rabbi preaches about once a month or so). It tends to be progressive (the sermon last week by the rabbi on Hanukkah very much emphasized lighting "eight flames flickering against ignorance, racism, injustice and fear"). It would not surprise me at all if both services (family and more formal) mentioned inclusiveness of all types of families even if subtly. It will also be the first big occasion for the new Dean for Religious Life to speak to the greater community (both services tend to be packed, she is preaching in the second and will have perhaps 1200 plus people listening in the church, traditionally the offerings will be split among several local charities). So what topic will she choose?
BTW didn't the Archbishop of Westminster have a rather anti-same sex marriage sermon for Christmas Eve 2012?
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
OIC. I would never expect someone to play the controversy card at that king of occasion. It seems I'm more naive than I thought, although it's no surprise that there are crass clergy out there (only need to think about how a previous pastor at our place attempted to walk the loving conservative line totally unaware that he was failing categorically).
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Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
<snip> Then there is the christmas that is thrust upon us by people who know we are faith-free but who still, as happened to me this morning, send stupid religious video cards, soppy, sentimental stuff that even some decent Christians would find silly. I made it clear to this person that I no longer believe and here they are trying to influence me by rehearsing the sweet little baby in a manger / shepherds / wise men etc story. <snip>
Far more entertaining, I find, if in a bloody-minded enough mood, is discussing said Christmas story. That the only a nativity narratives are found in Matthew and Luke, and not in Mark, which is recognised as the oldest Gospel story, and isn't that interesting? And did they know that the two stories are definitely giving different messages:
- the Matthew being addressed to the Jews and showing that Jesus came to be King of the Jews (hence the story of the magi and the escape to Egypt following Herod's fury and the massacre of the innocents, lots of repetition three times, lots of triplets);
- Luke is addressed to the marginalised and poor, showing that Jesus came to save us all. (All the women and the first showing to the shepherds)
I'll continue with "Isn't it fascinating how we've managed to make something so sentimental by merging two such different stories?" I'll also wonder about the fabulous nature of the stories - and wonder aloud if they could be fables like Genesis proving in retrospect the different prophecies in the Old Testament.
You have to be a little bit careful quite who you do this too, but most people who try to be mawkish about the lovely, lovely nativity story don't know their Bibles well enough to argue this one back and this fairly well known bit of scholarship is usually new to them.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I like the idea but cannot see me trying it. Many of the people who I know and meet are from what I would loosely call 'African independent church' background. No way would they listen. And I would get a fierce condemnation and a call to get back with GOD.
Referring to my last post - the couple who sent me the video card would understand the arguments, I'm sure. It baffles me why they sent it (except that they are the ones who spoke to Mrs Wuntoo but not to me about my giving-up on GOD) and I am inclined to think that they thought it might have some hidden / subliminal message that might influence me. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) I am certain that if this was the intention they will be praying hard. And equally certain that they are wasting their time.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If you're an African ex-Christian it might be interesting for you to write about your experience in a book or some other form, because it's not a subject that's been well-explored.
Conversely, if you're a Western atheist who's worked with African Christians it would be interesting for you to consider exploring the possibilities of de-conversion in African terms. Loss of faith tends to be framed in very a Western/European context, which may be why it's often unable to address or to challenge African spirituality adequately.
[end of tangent!]
[ 21. December 2014, 20:49: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Curiosity killed ...
quote:
You have to be a little bit careful quite who you do this too,...
Just a little bit? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I received this in a Christmas round-robin this morning: "Thousands have testified since (the birth) to God's light shining in their hearts to reveal their need of a Saviour although sadly many still 'love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil'".
This from a dear, now very elderly, lady who was very good to me during my National Service oveseas. I could not hurt her and I have no courage to tell her of my pilgrimage. Her words do not upset me because I understand where she is at and they are not directed at me specifically. For information she is a Plymouth 'sister'.
At least I know where I stand! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
BTW I am neither African nor a member of an African independent church: I have such friends and I have MW'd a number of such churches. My academic research has included a few such churches, although I was 'covert' and therefore unable to 'get underneath the skin'. Part of this story is about my daughter who has to cope with workmates trying to influence her (she is another member of my family who has rejected Christian ideas).
(edited to ass last para)
[ 22. December 2014, 10:52: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Hmmm. I was thinking more of working with African spirituality the better to help some African Christians to understand atheism. Judging from your posts above, you've found it frustrating not to be able to get through to your African friends.
One approach, as you may know, is to posit Christianity as the white coloniser's religion - or, in the Americas, as the slave master's religion. Islam could be condemned for similar reasons.
Going back to Christmas, some black theologians would no doubt be highly critical of black people sending sentimental Christmas cards that promote Jesus as a blue-eyed blond character, seeing it as a sign of psychological dislocation. Christmas as we know it in the West is very 'white', with only one Wise Man standing in for the rest of humanity. Santa and his elves are all white too. I believe that some African Americans avoid Christmas altogether because of these issues, celebrating Kwanzaa instead.
Sociological and demographic arguments might highlight that some parts of Africa are becoming more secular, or that there's a strain of utilitarianism in African religion that inevitably leads to atheism (or to magic rather than piety), or that by immigrating to western countries Africans will themselves probably become more western and more secular in their approach to religion. There's little sign as yet that African Christians in Western Europe are having much evangelistic success with the indigenous population, despite talk of 'reverse missionaries'.
These aren't arguments based on logic and objective assessments of religious 'truth'. Such assessments don't normally bring people into religion, and I'm not sure they generally drive people away either. They certainly don't apply during an 'irrational' Winter festival that hovers between the religious and the secular!
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