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Source: (consider it) Thread: 2813: St Mary the Virgin, Hamilton ON
Knopwood
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My thanks to Pewgilist, ever faithful on the Hamilton beat, for the illuminating report on St Mary the Virgin Independent Anglican. I previously reported on the opening service at their pro-cathedral in Niagara Falls NY, and have also been to a service at their Toronto church, which I suspect is now defunct.

Pewgilist is right to note the differences (if relatively minor) between their in-house BCP of 1991 and the prayer book of Elizabeth II. While they describe it as being based on 1549, it's really closer IIRC to the American BCP of 1928. I'm a little envious: I should have thought to ask to borrow a copy myself!

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dj_ordinaire
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Sounds rather lovely but I rather at what point Archbishop Cranmer was envisaging the use of the aspergillium during his services? [Ultra confused]

One assumes the Absolution but still... If it happened to me at an advertised 'Prayer Book' service I'd be surprised to say the least.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Knopwood
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My comments elsewhere may be germane. In Canada, many (though not all) Anglo-Catholic parishes where one would be likely to see the Asperges use the prayer book and would not see a conflict. I gather that in England the "Prayer Book" in "Prayer Book Catholic" qualifies the "Catholic" in a way it doesn't here. Here, it just tends to mean "not the BAS" rather than "not expanded with the English Missal" as it is very likely to be.

At our place, we only do it from Septuagesima through Passion Sunday. (On Palm Sunday and Easter, it's bumped by the procession, and then we get the Vidi Aquam on Low Sunday). Apart from the use of "complementary" Old Testament lessons to precede the Epistles and Gospels, there's nothing in our regular Sunday services that isn't in the BCP or the English Hymnal.

Then again, the Canadian BCP (with its patched-up Canon, provision for introits and graduals - though we use the ones in the hymnal - and restored Sanctus-Benedictus and Agnus Dei) needs rather less tinkering to be fit-for-purpose in an Anglo-Catholic setting. I can understand why "prayer book" would contrast with "Anglo-Catholic" more in a context where the prayer book in question is 1662!

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Oblatus
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I was pleased to be part of a small choir from Michigan some years ago that was invited to sing the Sunday morning service at this denomination's St Matthew's Cathedral (no longer used as such) in Cambridge, Ontario. Archbishop Peter Goodrich was our host and the celebrant for the service.

It was the first of March, and the Sunday plus all the commemorations added up to four collects, and the archbishop explained he had to add one (a BVM one, I think) to make an odd number. Sounds like flower arranging. [Smile]

As one of the commemorations was that of St David, we were asked to sing the Welsh anthem (by William Williams) before the opening hymn. I could sing it in Welsh now, but back then we were very glad we were handed an English version. We sang the propers from the English Gradual, the Ordinary to Willan's Missa Brevis No. 1, and Byrd's Ave Verum Corpus for the Communion motet, which had the archbishop in tears by the end.

The archbishop (who had introduced himself as "My name is Peter, and I'm 64 years old, which is 49 in American") and congregation treated us to a delightful homemade lunch in the undercroft afterwards. I later wrote a personal thank-you note to the archbishop and praised the denomination's Anglican chant psalter and their BCP. I asked him how one might purchase a copy of any of their books, and his reply consisted of a copy of the psalter with no comment nor invoice. [Yipee] It's a very solid psalter for congregational use with no fanciness nor choral shenanigans.

I do have a soft spot for that group after this experience. They've changed and moved a bit since then, but I'd love to visit them sometime, probably at SMV Hamilton, also to meet Mr Renwick, whom I know from some online fora.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
It was the first of March, and the Sunday plus all the commemorations added up to four collects, and the archbishop explained he had to add one (a BVM one, I think) to make an odd number. Sounds like flower arranging. [Smile]

Well that all sounds very nice - and yes I understood the traditional use has been to always have an odd number of Collects, adding that of the BVM if need be (though again not oaccording to Abp Cranmer!)

I recall our priest needing an extra collect for such a purpose and discovering that he could commemorate All Martyrs of the Franciscan Order or something similarly obscure [Big Grin]

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Flinging wide the gates...

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stonespring
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In many provinces of the Anglican Communion, "Prayer Book Catholic" does not mean 1662 prayer book - here in the US it means 1979 or 1928, which have all kinds of changes from Cranmer in them. It also does not necessarily mean a Dearmer or "Sarum" way of doing things - it just means that the Province's own prayer book is used rather than the English Missal or some other Roman Catholic Liturgy with Anglican bits added (which is increasingly rare at least in the US).
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Enoch
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This is really confusing from here. To us Prayer Book means the BCP of 1662.

Although there are a very, very few sort of freelance, disconnected denominations that claim to be 'the true Anglicans' but have split off from the CofE, they really are very fringe. The chances are you could go a lifetime and never hear of any, yet alone meet someone who belonged to one.

The 1662 BCP was a recension of one from 1552. So it's pretty odd to hear of a communion that founds its tradition on faithfulness to a prayer book that only existed for three years more than 450 years ago.

For consistency, rather than being KJV only, shouldn't they insist on the Great Bible of 1539?

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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
This is really confusing from here. To us Prayer Book means the BCP of 1662.

FAir enough, I suppose, but 1662 hasn't been used in Canada for well over 100 years, or in the US since shortly after that unpleasentness nearly 250 years ago. 1662 simply wouldn't be in the picture, unless the rector was a very conservative English import who totally disregarded the canons of the church in which s/he was ministering.

John

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although there are a very, very few sort of freelance, disconnected denominations that claim to be 'the true Anglicans' but have split off from the CofE, they really are very fringe.

It's a fair observation. Since the CofE is the established church - and since it has managed to a greater degree to institutionalize dissent within itself - there is less incentive to bunk off and set up one's own Anglican church. In the United States, where the Episcopal Church is not bound up in national identity in any similar way and there a plethora of denominational options caters to the seeker, there has understandably been more of a market for such ventures. In Canada, they are rather less prominent than in the US (especially with the advent of the Ordinariate deanery), but more so than in England

Now, having said that, the IACCS predates by some decades the Congress of St Louis which gave birth to the "Continuing Anglican" churches properly so-called. It's a project I've been working on for some time, but the origins of the dispute which led to its creation are obscure.

It began when a father-and-son duo of priests were turfed from a parish in Hamilton called St John the Evangelist, though I am not clear on whether this is the same parish by that dedication in Hamilton today (the "Rock on Locke"). They formed an independent "St Francis of Assisi Anglican Church." The ostensible reason for the dispute had to do with ceremonial, but even at the time the press reported scepticism about this explanation on the part of the Anglo-Catholic clergy in neighbouring Toronto. (It was a front-page story in the Star and lingered for some weeks as the court case continued: those really were the days).

The young curate, Harry Daw, eventually took episcopal orders from the Liberal Catholics, and created a small communion of parishes in the Niagara region, though at one point they had a parish, St Mark's, in Toronto as well. A second parish in Hamilton was called Blessed Trinity. Of the sites it occupied, one is still standing as a functioning church: the German Catholic parish of St Boniface. In those days, as now, there was a cathedral in Niagara Falls, NY. I believe it was dedicated to Holy Saviour or something like that.

Bishop Daw passed through Anglo-Catholic, Old Catholic, and Liberal Catholic phases, and the various Independent Catholic or "vagantes" groups active in Canada for the most part trace their respective origins to him under one or more these guises. When I was a child, there was still a listing in the Yellow Pages under "Churches - Liberal Catholic" for a St Jude's on Lakeshore Boulevard. This would have been descended from Daw through another branch of the family tree.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
This is really confusing from here. To us Prayer Book means the BCP of 1662.

FAir enough, I suppose, but 1662 hasn't been used in Canada for well over 100 years, or in the US since shortly after that unpleasentness nearly 250 years ago. 1662 simply wouldn't be in the picture, unless the rector was a very conservative English import who totally disregarded the canons of the church in which s/he was ministering.

John

I recall how surprised I was at the (to me) sparseness of the 1662 when I encountered it, after years of the Canadian 1959. It is perhaps one of these YMMV issues-- prayerbook catholic is totally understandable to me.
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Knopwood
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Yes, I came into the Anglican Church of Canada largely via the Prayer Book Society's summer camps, where the party line was that 1662 was the benchmark, and late 20th century volumes entitled "Book of Common Prayer" were impostors. There might be some national variation, under this view, but the "classical" books differed from 1662 only in minor respects. It was therefore quite a shock to experience 1662 liturgies at seminary, seeing just how different they were from "the" prayer book defended by the PBSC - and to learn that the equally "classical" prayer book championed by their American comrades had developed on a totally different track.

Once, at a Society event, the webmaster of an Anglo-Catholic parish brandished a 1918 prayer book (which can be said to be more or less a 1662 "clone," certainly as far as HC is concerned) and declared "This is what we should really be using." By then I was savvy enough (thanks in part to Ecclesiantics!) to know that this man - who painstakingly ensured every week that the Latin incipits from the Graduale for each Sunday were noted in the schedules on his parish's website - would change churches in a heartbeat if the prayer book of George V were ever introduced, and the Anglo-Catholic "goodies" made possible by 1959 taken away.

[ 04. February 2015, 03:21: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

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