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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Stupid or Mean or Both?
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Surely I’m not the only shipmate who has known someone stupid. Someone you once tried to argue with or explain things to who just couldn’t get it. Someone who eventually caused you to think you know, it’s not really their fault, they’re just not the brightest bulb in the box, I should be patient with them.
Surely shipmates have also known someone who was just mean. Someone who didn’t make the slightest effort to avoid doing things that clearly bothered you, or worse, the kind of bully who seemed to deliberately do those things because they bothered you.
Am I the only one who sometimes has trouble telling the difference?
Today’s candidate for stupid or mean or both: cliffdweller
In the Men and Women thread, after shutting down Doc Tor’s valid points about class (and what might have developed into an interesting discussion of the intersections between class and gender or even race, class and gender) with an example that doesn’t demonstrate what she seems to think it demonstrates (unless I’m being unusually obtuse), we had this exchange:
quote:
cliffdweller: What is it you're so afraid of???
(Note the triple question marks for emphasis).
quote:
saysay: You regularly misrepresent my positions and accuse me of thinking and feeling things that I do not think and feel and of having motivations that I do not have.
quote:
In complete and genuine honesty, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to in any of the above. If I misrepresented your positions, I assure you it is entirely unintentional. Possibly I genuinely misunderstood. To my knowledge I have never accused you of thinking or feeling anything in particular as I don't really know you all that well.
So, to her knowledge she’s never accused me of feeling anything in particular, right after I pointed out that she had just done that.
At this point, I assumed she was just stupid.
I’ve been known to misrepresent someone’s position because I was struggling to understand it and couldn’t see how what I was saying was inaccurate. It happens.
But then, after acknowledging that I didn’t think it would be productive if we continued the conversation, she picked apart one of my posts. I admit it, I took the bait and responded. Which resulted in the following exchange:
quote:
saysay: I also didn't say that they found dressing as women advantageous in society as a whole, only that they didn't find dressing and acting as men advantageous.
quote:
cliffdweller: Really? The context of a gay bar for your anecdote about men finding it advantageous to dress as a woman is entirely irrelevant? Really? C'mon, you know better than that.
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Fuck you, you stupid spoiled bitch. You misrepresent my posts in order to argue with them and tell me that I think and feel things that I don’t think and feel all the time and I’m fucking sick of it. You regularly interpret my experience the way you would interpret it and tell me your interpretation is correct. You’re reaching croesus levels here, although I haven’t noticed you jumping into random threads just to be mean and nasty to whoever is posting the way he does.
You want to know why college students afford less automatic respect to their female professors than their male professors? I doubt it’s because of any preconceived notions of what college professors are like and whether the person in front of them looks like their idea of a college professor (most people I know didn’t have any - and the ones that did would have discounted anyone not wearing a tweed jacket with leather patches on the elbows). My guess it’s because of their actual experience with college professors and the fact that some of the women leave them with the impression that they shouldn’t have been able to graduate high school much less managed to con someplace out of a phD.
This isn’t a proper Hell call as I’ve dealt with people like cliffdweller before and I doubt she’s going to change. Rather, it’s a place for people to rant about shipmates or people they know IRL who leave them wondering ‘are you stupid or mean or both?’ (Though of course cliffdweller is free to respond - and it's not that I’m dictating thread rules in Hell or anything).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
unless I’m being unusually obtuse
I wouldn't say it is unusual.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
(and it's not that I’m dictating thread rules in Hell or anything).
At the very least, this thread is novel because we don't often get Serving Suggestions.
I applaud you for recognizing what you're doing. Guess we'll just see if this new Hell Call / general grievance hybrid flies, or if it becomes a cautionary tale in laboratories everywhere.
orfeo
Benevolent Overseer of the Infernal Realms and Purveyor of Popcorn
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
saysay--
Within the last couple of months or so, you mentioned (on a Hell thread?) that sometimes you have a hard time realizing the way you come across to other people.
FWIW, many of us have understood your posts on "Men & Women" (Purg.) and the "Offenderati" thread (Purg.) in roughly the same way as cliffdweller.
Example #1: Your story, on the "Men & Wonen" thread that initially sounded like it was about men protest-dressing in the workplace, and turned out to be about cross-dressing men at a gay bar. As far as I could tell, you didn't understand why the context made a difference.
Example #2: Your "Offenderati" thread OP asked for practical suggestions for handling a stated situation. We participants dug into the news story you presented, had a really interesting convo about it...and came up with a totally different view than yours. And ISTM you got very angry. We tried to talk that out, and you said the same sorts of things as in the OP for this Hell call. Then it turned out, as far as I could understand, that your real issue on "Offenderati" wasn't the story you put in that OP, and you cited Title 9 (campus gender equality) and accusations of on-campus sexual assault as the real problem.
IMHO, you seem really angry about a lot of things, mostly real-life things you believe to be unjust. But it seems to take many posts to get to the heart of that.
As far as I can tell, no one is purposely misrepresenting you. We're working with our perception of your posts. Somehow, there seems to be a lot of miscommunication. Maybe our experiences don't match up, so we need to find some kind of common ground before we can understand each other.
Do you want to try?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I don't think Saysay seems "really angry about a lot of things," at least not more than any of us seem in Hell and Purgatory where we come specifically to thrash out things that have been bothering us.
Saysay lives her life in an academic world. Contrary to the mind expanding promise of higher learning, the reality is often a world of lock stepped group-think that would make the suburbs of the 1950's seem Bohemian. Of course she's often frustrated.
To me, she sometimes seems like the young voice of reason in a world gone mad.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Meh. Get on to anything to do female dress or behaviour and watch saysay decide it's all about rich white bitches. She projects her grievances so hard you can hear the sprockets whirring.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
What Golden Key said.
I give saysay points for fierce efforts at establishing and maintaining a determined independence of thought.
Unfortunately, the "independence" aspect of her posts seems at war with the "thought" aspect. She's apparently entered a learning environment IRL (and in SoF, online) with the idea that thoughtfully considering and/or possibly agreeing with others' ideas is to surrender her independence, perhaps even to betray some aspect of her identity.
Rightly or wrongly, I end up reading her output here as one long statement of the following points:
1. You can't possibly understand me/my experience.
2. My experience trumps yours because you've failed to include mine.
3. Since it's wrong of you to exclude me, I need not take your ideas seriously (but you are required to deeply consider mine).
4. Taking your ideas seriously constitutes a profound betrayal of my self, or identity, or race, or class, or gender, or . . . ?
Simply put, saysay seems to place all her trust in her own experience. She recognizes the limitations this behavior imposes on others, but has yet to see how this may apply to her own situation.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Meh. Get on to anything to do female dress or behaviour and watch saysay decide it's all about rich white bitches. She projects her grievances so hard you can hear the sprockets whirring.
Full House! I have a Full House! As per this section of the OP:
quote:
You want to know why college students afford less automatic respect to their female professors than their male professors? I doubt it’s because of any preconceived notions of what college professors are like and whether the person in front of them looks like their idea of a college professor (most people I know didn’t have any - and the ones that did would have discounted anyone not wearing a tweed jacket with leather patches on the elbows). My guess it’s because of their actual experience with college professors and the fact that some of the women leave them with the impression that they shouldn’t have been able to graduate high school much less managed to con someplace out of a phD.
My emphasis ... Of course the reason that people disrespect female professors is because they seem so stupid that they must have "conned their way" into a phD. Nothing to do with sexism. Nothing at all ... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Oh, and what Porridge said.
Tubbs
"conned their way into" must be a code word for something as they couldn't have got their academic qualifications by doing the actual work and being GOOD ENOUGH!
[ 24. February 2015, 13:48: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Surely I’m not the only shipmate who has known someone stupid. Someone you once tried to argue with or explain things to who just couldn’t get it. Someone who eventually caused you to think you know, it’s not really their fault, they’re just not the brightest bulb in the box, I should be patient with them.
It seems to be human nature to figure that if someone is stupid, it's the other person. Everyone I've ever met is stupid or, at least, functionally stupid in various realms of life due to ignorance.
quote:
Surely shipmates have also known someone who was just mean. Someone who didn’t make the slightest effort to avoid doing things that clearly bothered you, or worse, the kind of bully who seemed to deliberately do those things because they bothered you.
Yes.
quote:
Today’s candidate for stupid or mean or both: cliffdweller
Well, maybe so. You have two choices: a case of the red ass or a beer. Go with the beer.
Take the very worst things said here. So what? Are the people who say them actually in your life?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Well, maybe so. You have two choices: a case of the red ass or a beer. Go with the beer.
Take the very worst things said here. So what? Are the people who say them actually in your life?
I think it less about particular people than it is about emotional investment is one's view of self.
I know in myself, there are issues which draw an automatic and very strong reaction which can be out of proportion to what has been said in a particular situation. I try hard to let experience inform, but not blind. But it is difficult and I do fail at times. For that, I do feel my first post less charitable than it could have been.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
. . .
Saysay lives her life in an academic world. Contrary to the mind expanding promise of higher learning, the reality is often a world of lock stepped group-think that would make the suburbs of the 1950's seem Bohemian. Of course she's often frustrated.
To me, she sometimes seems like the young voice of reason in a world gone mad.
I can't agree that saysay "lives her life in an academic world." I believe she claims to work in that environment (though if she's ever explained her professional role within it, I missed that, though I think she's also mentioned being a student). But to me, "living" in an environment means a broad (though not necessarily complete) acceptance of its basic premises and working with the possibilities and limitations that environment presents.
It's fairly plain from what saysay posts about her academic environment that she does neither.
My own experience of the academic world has been mostly as a student, plus a one-semester stint as an adjunct instructor.
Did I find mind-expanding possibilities? Yes, especially among learners and teachers (and we're mostly both). Did I also encounter lock-step group-think? Yes, especially among administrators and their support staff.
Did I see a fair amount of frustration? Absolutely. Here's who gets most frustrated, in my experience:
1. Binary thinkers, who reject "grey area" thinking on principle. If your starting premise is that there are yes-no, black-white, right-wrong answers to human dilemmas, and the goal is to get to a quick, definitive answer, higher education will likely frustrate you.
2. Those who rely on "received wisdom" in its various guises rather than acquiring an assortment of perspectives on a human dilemma, then sitting down and thinking through what actually goes on in those dilemmas, and why, and what actions we've taken in response and what assumptions those actions seem predicated on, and where that leads us, and how this is or isn't helpful in resolving the dilemma, are likely to find higher education frustrating.
3. People unable or unwilling to engage in self-reflection/examination, particularly as this relates to learning processes. It's painfully easy to write off a course or a professor as "stupid," "irrelevant," etc. It's much harder to challenge one's own reactions, e.g., "Why am I having such a hard time dealing with this material/course/professor? How could I approach this material/course/professor more effectively? Are there underlying biases/preconceptions/beliefs which are getting in my way? What are my own expectations, and do I need to adjust these?" People unwilling or unable to do this work will likely find higher education frustrating.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Today’s candidate for stupid or mean or both: cliffdweller
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Look in the mirror, saysay, look in the mirror.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I don't think it's always a matter of "they disagree with me so they must be stupid."
One of my husband's sisters used to do this sort of thing to me all the time:
Looking at an actress on TV saying, "I think she's so ugly, her face is too thin."
A few minutes later, all surprised: "She looks like you, Twilight!"
This went on all the time and I would ask myself if she was just stupid, because she was clearly no Alan Turing. Now that I've known her thirty years, I know it was meanness but she's mellowed a lot now that she's more secure.
I think the answer to the OP question is usually, "Mean," because the innocently stupid may say insulting things from time to time, but unless they're really impaired in some way, it's probably not going to happen too often.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
My mum used to say (often SHOUT!) "How can anyone be so intelligent and act so stupid?"
Intelligence is no bar to stupidity. Everyone's dumb about something.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
True dat.
Also, some apparent "meanness" is not intended; some people simply allow whatever pops into their heads to pop immediately out of their mouths. What sounds like a deliberate dig at Twilight's appearance might be merely an accident of timing. Some people don't "process" their thoughts pre-utterance and hence see no connection between Statement A and Statement B. (Sadly, I have been there, done that.)
On the other hand, Twilight's SIL might just be a rancid bitch now in recession.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Well, look at what happens when I'm off all day perverting the minds of those poor young college students: I get my very first hell-call. Just wish I coulda lost my hell virginity with something I really care about like marriage equality or the superiority of California wines over French. Ah, well, too late for morning after regrets, time to begin the walk of shame.
As per the OP: much like I said on the original purgatory thread, I still find saysay's accusations completely incomprehensible. So I guess that means the answer is "stupid". All those years of high-priced education gone to waste, drat it all.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
the superiority of California wines over French.
Eat shit and die, vile heretic. May your line be wiped from the earth. May your house be burned down and the land salted so that nothing good may ever grow there again.
French wines are clearly better than that Californian crap.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
the superiority of California wines over French.
Eat shit and die, vile heretic. May your line be wiped from the earth. May your house be burned down and the land salted so that nothing good may ever grow there again.
French wines are clearly better than that Californian crap.
See, now this is worthy of a good hell chat!
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think Saysay seems "really angry about a lot of things," at least not more than any of us seem in Hell and Purgatory where we come specifically to thrash out things that have been bothering us.
Saysay lives her life in an academic world. Contrary to the mind expanding promise of higher learning, the reality is often a world of lock stepped group-think that would make the suburbs of the 1950's seem Bohemian. Of course she's often frustrated.
To me, she sometimes seems like the young voice of reason in a world gone mad.
Actually I had to leave academia. I could justify being a glorified babysitter to spoiled brats (I worked in administration) for a while, even though it meant doing a lot of fighting against programs that were more indoctrination than education.
But they want me to do things that are straight up immoral in order to comply with federal Title IX requirements.
Also, I got tired of trying to decide what should happen to the idiots who follow advice like this.. (I just know a lot of people still working in the field so I hear a lot of war stories.)
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Brazil produces some remarkably good wines. I especially like the ones from the São Francisco region.
(I have no idea what this thread is about.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Brazil produces some remarkably good wines. I especially like the ones from the São Francisco region.
(I have no idea what this thread is about.)
No one does. That's why we've moved on to cocktail hour.
I'm going to stand by my choice of a good California wine. And, to further mark my descent into heterodoxy, I'm going to argue for, yes, that tritest of all wines, so 1980s-- a good Calif. white zin. Sweet, fruity, delicious (and only $2 at TJs!). Nothing like that bitter vinegary swill you get elsewhere, including that snooty place across the pond.
[ 24. February 2015, 23:54: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
the superiority of California wines over French.
Eat shit and die, vile heretic. May your line be wiped from the earth. May your house be burned down and the land salted so that nothing good may ever grow there again.
French wines are clearly better than that Californian crap.
Not according to the Judgment of Paris.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No one does. That's why we've moved on to cocktail hour.
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
You regularly attribute emotions I'm not having to my posts. I want you to stop. If you must comment, try something more along the lines of 'you're coming across as afraid' or 'this post sounds angry.' NOT 'now, now, there's no reason for you to be angry.'
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
the superiority of California wines over French.
Eat shit and die, vile heretic. May your line be wiped from the earth. May your house be burned down and the land salted so that nothing good may ever grow there again.
French wines are clearly better than that Californian crap.
Not according to the Judgment of Paris.
Thank you, Dave. THANK YOU.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
the superiority of California wines over French.
Eat shit and die, vile heretic. May your line be wiped from the earth. May your house be burned down and the land salted so that nothing good may ever grow there again.
French wines are clearly better than that Californian crap.
If you like super-crisp clean whites,I understand NZ scores quite high on your side of the pond, Marvin. Though of course it's a frost-rimed pond at the moment, so I recommend a really gutsy South Australian red. I've loved some French whites, but I just can't get enthused about any of the reds I have tried so far. Perhaps I should try harder - or more. Yes, certainly - more. [hic]
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Would you all shut the fuck up about wine. Thank you.
orfeo
Now somewhat annoyed and less benevolent Hellhost
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I've given up on French wines (except for Rhone) as price does not guarantee quality. It varies too much.
Never had a poor Chilean though.
[ 25. February 2015, 00:56: Message edited by: balaam ]
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No one does. That's why we've moved on to cocktail hour.
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
You regularly attribute emotions I'm not having to my posts. I want you to stop. If you must comment, try something more along the lines of 'you're coming across as afraid' or 'this post sounds angry.' NOT 'now, now, there's no reason for you to be angry.'
Now that she knows how you would like her to address such situations, and how important it is to you, my guess is that she'll oblige you. Problem solved. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Personally I find cliffdweller neither stupid nor mean. Mostly I see her get frustrated in communicating with you. Then she spouts something uncharacteristically caustic and it all ends in tears. Or, as now, in Hell.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Except that cliffdweller began reasonably, saysay began the accusatory and heated responses. cliffdweller began with apologies and kept trying reason even afterword.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No one does. That's why we've moved on to cocktail hour.
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
You regularly attribute emotions I'm not having to my posts. I want you to stop. If you must comment, try something more along the lines of 'you're coming across as afraid' or 'this post sounds angry.' NOT 'now, now, there's no reason for you to be angry.'
Now that she knows how you would like her to address such situations, and how important it is to you, my guess is that she'll oblige you. Problem solved.
If anyone can provide me with a halfway reliable means of divining the emotional state of another poster, in Purgatory, Hell, All Saints or even Heaven, do let me know.
I can't be the only person here who isn't a mind-reader and I'm buggered if I'm going to spend my online existence walking on eggshells for fear of upsetting some precious dahling.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
Well, obviously we see these things quite differently, because for me those two statements are not even close to equivalent. I can think of far, far worse things someone could accuse me of than "being afraid"-- domestic abuse being at the top of the list. fwiw, "What are you so afraid of?" just isn't an insult in my world.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
You regularly attribute emotions I'm not having to my posts. I want you to stop. If you must comment, try something more along the lines of 'you're coming across as afraid' or 'this post sounds angry.' NOT 'now, now, there's no reason for you to be angry.'
Much as I would love to share Lyda Rose's confidence that I'll be able to avoid this in the future (yes, I know I can be quite snarky from time to time, but I honestly don't enjoy pissing people off)-- I'm just not all that optimistic. We don't seem to communicate well, to say the least.
Your specific complaint here (only one of a laundry list that appeared out of the blue on the "men and women" thread) serves to illustrate precisely that. Here's the entire conversation (that "context" thing you seem to find "irrelevant"):
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
That's not a [whatever you're going to accuse me of], it's a statement of fact.
Wasn't really planning to accuse you of much of anything. What is it you're so afraid of???
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I didn't mean to suggest you were "afraid" in the literal, shaking-in-your boots, riddled with fear sense. I was attempting to address your comment that was-- as I read it-- a pre-emptive attempt to ward off an anticipated but unspecified accusation by assuring you I wasn't going to accuse you of anything. I was wondering what the unspecified thing you're referring to: i.e. what is the "[whatever you're going to accuse me of]" that you are afraid I'm going to accuse you of? Or, iow, why do you think I'm about to accuse you of something and what would it be? Up until then we were having a very normal, purgatorial discussion-- not particularly heated, not exclusively you and I, just a whole host of people talking back and forth. So the whole comment was sort of odd to me.
So that's the sort of thing we're talking about. I seem to find context much more important to these discussions than you do, and the lack of context in our discussions seems to create a LOT of misunderstandings.
So, while I will certainly attempt to avoid causing any additional distress by attributing (or what you believe to be my attributing) any emotion to you, I can't make any promises, because, again, honestly, I didn't realize I was doing that. So it could happen again.
[ 25. February 2015, 05:16: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Sounds like you were using the word "afraid" in a non-literal sense, similar to the way one might say "I'm afraid we may not have enough bread to make toast for breakfast". The sense being to do with prediction of what might happen in the future, rather than any significant emotional tone.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No one does. That's why we've moved on to cocktail hour.
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
You regularly attribute emotions I'm not having to my posts. I want you to stop. If you must comment, try something more along the lines of 'you're coming across as afraid' or 'this post sounds angry.' NOT 'now, now, there's no reason for you to be angry.'
Now that she knows how you would like her to address such situations, and how important it is to you, my guess is that she'll oblige you. Problem solved.
If anyone can provide me with a halfway reliable means of divining the emotional state of another poster, in Purgatory, Hell, All Saints or even Heaven, do let me know.
I can't be the only person here who isn't a mind-reader and I'm buggered if I'm going to spend my online existence walking on eggshells for fear of upsetting some precious dahling.
I’m not convinced that such an attempt to set the terms of engagement – “Address me like this, not like that because I don’t like it– is ever going to work.
You may as well add, and, “And if you don’t, I’ll scream and scream until I make myself sick”.
Don't easily offend, don't be easily offended. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
OK, I'll bite. Let's compare:
One of these questions implicitly accuses the questionee of an illegal (at least in many places) and morally vile act.
The other question asks for information about the cause of the questionee’s expressed concern.
The questionee, rather than providing the requested information, flies off the handle. Of course, perhaps she should be forgiven, as the requested information appears, very plainly put, in the questionee’s sig:
"When I wake up I’m afraid, somebody else might take my place
When I wake up I’m afraid, somebody else might end up being me"
[ 25. February 2015, 11:56: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Sounds like you were using the word "afraid" in a non-literal sense, similar to the way one might say "I'm afraid we may not have enough bread to make toast for breakfast". The sense being to do with prediction of what might happen in the future, rather than any significant emotional tone.
Exactly, yes. Thank you.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
OK, I'll bite. Let's compare:
One of these questions implicitly accuses the questionee of an illegal (at least in many places) and morally vile act.
The other question asks for information about the cause of the questionee’s expressed concern.
That's one comparison (actually it's a contrast but we'll let that slide). Here's another:
They both assume something the askee believes is not true and believes is shameful to admit were it true, and neither can be answered with a simple answer but need to be "unasked" because they assume something that's not true.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Tubs: quote:
I’m not convinced that such an attempt to set the terms of engagement – “Address me like this, not like that because I don’t like it– is ever going to work.
You definitely have a point (and so does everyone else on this). I withdraw the suggestion.
I hadn't noticed saysay's sig. Compare and contrast to mine.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Porridge: The other question asks for information about the cause of the questionee’s expressed concern.
I do believe that the question "what are you afraid of?" puts the other person a bit on the defensive. Yes, perhaps cliffdweller meant 'afraid' in a non-literal sense, but I can understand that this nuance didn't go over well.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I do believe that the question "what are you afraid of?" puts the other person a bit on the defensive.
In this particular case, the other person had already made a pre-emptive defensive denial.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: In this particular case, the other person had already made a pre-emptive defensive denial.
My, we use some advanced debating techniques here.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: In this particular case, the other person had already made a pre-emptive defensive denial.
My, we use some advanced debating techniques here.
Whatever. The point, in this case, is that saysay started the antagonism. cliffdweller's response, however you wish to interpret it, was just that. And order makes a difference.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Porridge: The other question asks for information about the cause of the questionee’s expressed concern.
I do believe that the question "what are you afraid of?" puts the other person a bit on the defensive. Yes, perhaps cliffdweller meant 'afraid' in a non-literal sense, but I can understand that this nuance didn't go over well.
Sure. Context is everything (ironically, my point at the time). And, as we all know, it's easy to misinterpret nuance and intent in this nonverbal medium. It's difficult to correct for those misunderstandings when the first response is to go to Defcon 5. Bottom line: to state the incredibly obvious, saysay and I have communication issues. I will certainly make every attempt to comply with her emphatically stated "requests" but, realistically, I don't expect those communication issues to disappear any time soon. So give me a space over there in the corner for my comfy chair and a couple of good books since it looks like I'm gonna become a regular down here.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Tubs: quote:
I’m not convinced that such an attempt to set the terms of engagement – “Address me like this, not like that because I don’t like it– is ever going to work.
You definitely have a point (and so does everyone else on this). I withdraw the suggestion.
I hadn't noticed saysay's sig. Compare and contrast to mine.
It can work in face to face conversation as most people can read other's reactions and alter their language accordingly. But in online ones it's a complete non-starter as there are too many people involved! All you can do is put your words out there and hope for the best.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: In this particular case, the other person had already made a pre-emptive defensive denial.
My, we use some advanced debating techniques here.
Well, the thread was already discussing mind-reading, we might as well also mention time travel.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Bottom line: to state the incredibly obvious, saysay and I have communication issues.
It's decent of you to share ownership of the "communication issues" with saysay; communication issues often do require at least two owners to exist. Frankly, though, I doubt that much of this one is on you.
Here, I think it's worth looking at the gay-men-dressing-as-women anecdote saysay brought up in the men-women Purg thread, which is where (at least from my perspective) the thread pretty much derailed.
Maybe I'm to be numbered among the stupid and mean, but for what it's worth, I failed to grasp the relevance of that anecdote to the thread. I suspect I'm not alone in this. As saysay, at the request of others, tried to explain the relevance she apparently saw, I grew even more bewildered, and it seemed to me she was, in addition, moving the relevance goalposts around almost at random. I have a similar reaction to the link she offered in this thread where she explains that she's no longer working in academia. I just don't grasp what that David Horowitz link, or what the cross-dressing anecdote, has to do with anything. Nor do I understand the explanation saysay offered on the men/women thread. Neither I nor anyone else has asked for explanation of the Horowitz link, though I composed (but ultimately did not post) such a request. Apparently saysay and I also have communication issues.
On the other hand, when I read what you have to say on various topics, I generally see, or think I see, the connections between your offerings and the topic under discussion.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: Bottom line: to state the incredibly obvious, saysay and I have communication issues.
Just a question, out of curiosity, I'm not trying to trick you. What did those three question marks mean? Where they expressing your exasperation with her communication method?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: Bottom line: to state the incredibly obvious, saysay and I have communication issues.
Just a question, out of curiosity, I'm not trying to trick you. What did those three question marks mean? Where they expressing your exasperation with her communication method?
No they expressed my bewilderment re what she was talking about with her anticipated accusation-- which is why it was followed by the "confused" smilie. See my earlier post where I give the context for the "what are you afraid of???" remark. As I mentioned, the pre-emptive defense-against-accusation came at the end of a laundry list of complaints that, from my pov, came completely out of the blue so the whole interaction just left me... befuddled. Hence the multiple questions marks. As in, "what the heck are you talking about???"
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Compare "what are you so afraid of?" with "when did you stop beating your husband and child?"
OK, I'll bite. Let's compare:
One of these questions implicitly accuses the questionee of an illegal (at least in many places) and morally vile act.
One of these is also the most commonly used example of a loaded question.
quote:
The other question asks for information about the cause of the questionee’s expressed concern.
The other is tone policing. Which she did immediately after I said it was clear we weren't communicating and asked for the conversation to be dropped.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Sure. Context is everything (ironically, my point at the time). And, as we all know, it's easy to misinterpret nuance and intent in this nonverbal medium. It's difficult to correct for those misunderstandings when the first response is to go to Defcon 5.
It's difficult to correct for misunderstandings when the first response is to go to a normal peacetime readiness level?
It's true, when we start miscommunicating I tend to start talking more the way I would normally talk rather than the way I talk to white women... Or did you mean the opposite of what you actually typed?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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