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Source: (consider it) Thread: Just Giving
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
Luke 6:30New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

A friend of mine is a new Christian, he is housing-vulnerable, and someone in the scheme where he lives is exploiting his soft heart to the point where all his pawn-able possessions (which amounts really to one cheap guitar after another - he doesn't own anything else) are lost to him.

He is furious with the 'friend' and with himself, and wants to throw his keys in and 'escape'. We've lost touch with him once or twice in the past, I think when he has been ashamed that things folks have given him have ended up in pawn. The more of this story slowly comes out, the more I think it has not been his fault.

I realise I had forgotten what a life like his is really like, though I once lived much closer to it [Hot and Hormonal] .

Yesterday I tried to advise him, badly I thought and in a way which might wash with my young kids ('you really need to look after yourself too...') but which sounded like platitudes to me as I said them. They didn't wash with me as I spoke, and I realised that in his position I'd be defensive and aggressive - a middle-class twat - to retain some control and perhaps my sanity.

I can buy my mate a guitar and make it un-pawn-able; a thick coat of green house paint, perhaps. But Jesus' words are tough, and I can't think of a context outside a monastery in which I could live them. How can I counsel my mate?

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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This passage scares me too.

One way I've tried to deal with it without rationalizing it away is to try to look at it in the context of broader Scripture. In particular, all the bits that say we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Now, it is clearly loving your neighbor when you share with him when he is truly in need. The guy is starving, you feed him, even if you go hungry yourself for a meal, fine. No problem.

But it is also equally clear that giving your malicious, greedy, or mentally ill neighbor any damn thing he demands regardless of need is NOT loving him as yourself. If you make it easy for other people to commit sins, you become a walking temptation to them. That is not a nice thing to do.

We can see this principle most clearly when it comes to parents raising children. We all know it is disastrous to give a child anything he wants, any time, anywhere, regardless of circumstances. That results in a spoiled brat, and later a ruined human being. No parent who truly loves his/her children is going to follow Jesus' instructions here in their most literal, wooden-headed sense. The art of being a good parent involves REALLY loving your children by paying attention to their needs, and saying Yes when, and only when, "Yes" is going to be a good thing for them in the long run.

The same is true for adult neighbors. We may not be their parents, but as their fellow human beings we are still responsible for whatever traps and temptations we leave in their path. To give in a way that ultimately harms others is not love, it is a sin.

Since your friend is a new Christian, he is probably not used to thinking through these passages in the light of the rest of Scripture. You might try asking him if he thinks it's a good idea to help someone else sin--and when he answers No, gently pointing out that this is exactly what he is doing by his current behavior (aiding and abetting greed, covetousness, etc.)

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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If your friend is a new Christian, he needs to learn more about the Bible and how we should use it to guide our daily lives.

Can you help him with this? The best thing would be a Bible study group where there is no agenda beyond a sincere desire for understanding. Unfortunately it is not always easy to find such a group.

I think it would be better now to focus on interpreting the Bible rather than hashing over what he has done and should do.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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LC - that's really sane - thank you. I think my friend looks on me as being decidedly lukewarm (perhaps he's right - I was not knowingly involved in his conversion) - maybe all this will give us a chance to talk frankly about God, if we can find a quiet moment away from the project where we usually meet.

I think my difficulty thinking clearly here reflects my own guilt at my own wealth. Rather than fantasising about being a monk, I guess as usual I need to pray. And again.

Meanwhile ebay has now provided a guitar of such riotous decreptitude, that (especially once the holes in it are bunged with car body filler and the missing metalwork is bodged from the most misshapen rusty scrap to be found on the floor of the shed) then pawn-shop owners all over the North West of England will be phoning each other in forewarning.

Unless one of them thinks it's art.

(I do play, so at least I can avoid discouraging him further with the 'loan' of an unplayable lemon!)

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Moo - thanks too. He's involved in a charismatic church which I don't know, but they seem active and he 'takes part in things'. Whether he joins in bible study, I don't know - I need to try to find a way to talk to him about all this, away from the 5 or 6 other blokes who comprise our music project at which I volunteer. The other fellas are supportive - it's a nice community - but not Christians.

I wish I knew his pastor. From what I know it's even possible the 'friend' has gone to church with my mate, and is using these verses (or the thrust that 'you're not a Christian unless you help me') against him. Ugg.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Perhaps I might have mentioned that both my mate and the 'friend' are long-term unemployed, and that the 'friend' has a separated partner and (as I hear it) neglected kid with which to play on my mate's guilt-strings. Ugg again.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:


Meanwhile ebay has now provided a guitar of such riotous decreptitude, that (especially once the holes in it are bunged with car body filler and the missing metalwork is bodged from the most misshapen rusty scrap to be found on the floor of the shed) then pawn-shop owners all over the North West of England will be phoning each other in forewarning.

Unless one of them thinks it's art.

[Snigger] Oh, this is awesome. [Killing me]

Possibly you might point him to the verse about being wise as serpents and innocent as doves? Doing one without the other is not recommended by Jesus.

There's also the bit about how "the children of this world are wiser in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light," where I think Jesus is implying we need to wise up in a dangerous world.

And the parable where the lord (and the Lord, by implication!) commends the cheating manager for his shrewdness, even though it came at the lord's own expense!

Do you have any old Christians (as in, elderly and wise in the faith) that he might get along with well? If you could introduce them (maybe he could help them out with a minor chore or something?) they might hit it off and become friends he could consult for guidance in these babyhood days.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Dumb question of the moment--is it possible you could "lend" him the guitar, with the understanding that ownership remains with you (and therefore he can quite honestly tell the scrounger that the guitar isn't his to give away?)?

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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Yes - that was the response from the other guys in the class 'aarrggghhh, why didn't you tell him it was a lend?'.

Cue sheepish-my-mate-H 'he was with me in the shop when I bought it'. But H reminds me of me when I was younger - he just doesn't like to lie, and he lacks the confidence to say 'no'.

So yes, this monster will remain 'mine'. Although I don't want to set him up for feeling responsible when the apparently fragile neck joint lets go and it folds in half under string tension. There could be a nice comedy act in the instrument, but you could only perform it once.

Older Christians - nice idea, but I am completely out of his circle except for the (non-church) project where I volunteer. But I'll need to go to see him to deliver the guitar when it's done as it will be summer holidays, so there's scope for a chat and time perhaps to prepare some short texts - I don't think he likes to read much, though he's able.

cheers
Mark

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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...and thanks for those verses. The ones which normally are hard to take, and jar with our (my) nice middle-class lives, when we forget that we bought our way out of living amongst wolves. Well, white collar wolves don't make you pawn your guitar.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Ya think? [Snigger]

Well, if he's that isolated, his best bet is going to be regular Bible reading and your prayers. The more exposure he gets to the Bible (Gospels and NT first) the less opportunity there is for someone to distort it, and hopefully he'll grow up the sooner. I was isolated just like that, and look how I turned out. On second hand, maybe I shouldn't have said that... [Snigger]

You could maybe point out the neck problem and assure him ahead of time that you won't freak if and when it happens?

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged


 
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