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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why do we call Abraham our father?
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Why do we not trace our religious origins back to some ancient Norse god?
Why is Christian worship still structured as though the Garden of Eden was in the middle east and Jerusalem is still the centre of the universe?
Why have the insights of ancient peoples in China, South America, Iceland, Canada and Australia had so little impact on Christian thought.
Is it just because, at crucial historical moments, Christians had more effective weapons of both individual and mass destruction, or jusy louder voices?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Sorry to double-post straight away, but I missed out Africa. Possibly the cradle of humanity? Did God not reveal Himself to the first hominids? Perhaps he did. Or perhaps they weren't ready for Him - not clever enough. Or perhaps God is white?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
According to Scripture, because God called Abraham and gave him the promise to bless all nations through him, Abraham believed him, and God counted him righteous due to his faith.
The fact that the promise is to all nations should be a clue that God isn't into racial superiority, but if part of his modus operandi is to call individuals, not just humanity en masse, then he had to start somewhere.
As to the hominids, well, without getting into Dead Horse territory, Genesis tells us that men started calling on the name of the LORD* right after Eden.
==
*And the first person to whom the "Angel of the LORD" (YHWH) is said to reveal himself is... Hagar.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Are you suggesting that there were no religious writings/experiences/traditions before the OT?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Are you suggesting that there were no religious writings/experiences/traditions before the OT?
Are you suggesting that all religious writings/experiences that have ever existed are equally relevant to Christians?
I'm not a Christian in the sense of believing that Jesus was divine, but even I understand why Christians would privilege the Old Testament over, say, religious traditions originating among the Cree people of pre-Columbian North America. As far as I know, Jesus himself situated his ethics and message within the context of Old Testament theology, and no other.
[ 16. April 2015, 21:16: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
According to Scripture, because God called Abraham and gave him the promise to bless all nations through him, Abraham believed him, and God counted him righteous due to his faith.
The scripture was written by unbiased people who really understood that everyone was actually chosen (and all must have prizes), and that their claim to being the exclusive chosen people was a story told just for comfort as they wandered in the wonderland of the desert.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Yes, but that originated in his own country - not in mine. And you quoted my question but didn't answer it; instead interpreting it as a rather fatuous remark (or appearinbg to - forgive me if I got you wrong).
[Cross-posted - answering a reply further up]
[ 16. April 2015, 21:35: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Where in Norse religion or anywhere else can one see the divine light stirring the Bronze Age mud so clearly?
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Love wins
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Why is Christian worship still structured as though the Garden of Eden was in the middle east and Jerusalem is still the centre of the universe?
Maybe I've misunderstood your question, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the Christian religion would take its cues from its origins, which are in Judaism. All other longstanding religions prioritise their origins, I would expect.
OTOH, I believe there are theologians and historians who've tried to find the connections between pre-Judaic religions, Judaism and hence Christianity. Various Christian intellectuals have explored the influence of African spirituality on black and ultimately on global Christianity, particularly through the birth and burgeoning growth of Pentecostalism.
There's also been some interest in, for example, Celtic influences in North European Christianity, and in the influences of Native American and Dalit spirituality on the Christianities lived in the areas where those cultures have been significant.
AFAIK, none of these influences has been a systematic attempt to downplay the importance of the OT in the worshipping or devotional lives of ordinary Christians (although I'm sure there are some theologians who might like to despatch the OT entirely). Indeed, I think the OT provides a strong narrative of trials, failures and successes that still has a rich resonance for Christians around the world. I don't see the benefit in losing these stories in order to look for the same thing elsewhere.
I understand that the Unitarian Universalists like to incorporate aspects from different religions in their worship, but I don't know to what extent they consider themselves, or are considered by others, to be Christians.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Are you suggesting that there were no religious writings/experiences/traditions before the OT?
No, and neither does Scripture.
If you dismiss Scripture altogether, then you're under no compunction to call Abraham your father, by the way.
[ 17. April 2015, 05:18: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I love Abraham because he bargained with God for Sodom. What a man! What a God! To inspire such a myth.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Why do we not trace our religious origins back to some ancient Norse god?
Because the Christian faith has its roots embedded in the Hebrew Scriptures and because we believe that God chose to privilege an obscure little nomad race in the Middle East rather than the other, great civilisations around at the time. Our belief that God chose an obscure bunch of desert travellers through which His purposes for the human race could be known, points to a God who doesn't privilege empire and who seems to show a distinct bias towards the anawim - the poor, the humble and the insignificant. This pattern of choosing the powerless over the powerful repeats itself throughout Scripture, e.g. God chooses a shepherd boy to become King, a peasant girl to become mother to the Messiah, two women with dodgy sexual reputations (according to the patriarchal culture around them) get inserted into Jesus's genealogy, etc., etc., etc.
quote:
Why is Christian worship still structured as though the Garden of Eden was in the middle east and Jerusalem is still the centre of the universe?
Because whether Genesis is interpreted literally or metaphorically, the basic story about our faith origins is what powers up the foundations.
And Israel was always meant to be a light to the nations and a blessing to the Gentiles.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Where in Norse religion or anywhere else can one see the divine light stirring the Bronze Age mud so clearly?
Nicely put. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Abraham is our father because he starts the unbroken line of faith that continues to this day. The Abrahamic faith has been developed/reformed/improved/distorted/whatever since then, of course, but it's a living tradition that began with an ancestor of the Jewish people who held to faith in one God, conventionally (and, for all I know to the contrary, quite possibly accurately) known as Abraham.
That's not to say that God hasn't revealed himself to all sorts of other people, before and since Abraham, but the specifically Jewish/Christian/Muslim conception of God traces its origin to him. So he's the father of those who share his faith.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
According to Scripture, because God called Abraham and gave him the promise to bless all nations through him, Abraham believed him, and God counted him righteous due to his faith.
Well, all nations except the ones God told Abraham's descendents to wipe out. That seems like the kind of "blessing" most nations would refuse, if given the choice.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Svitlana wrote:
quote:
I understand that the Unitarian Universalists like to incorporate aspects from different religions in their worship, but I don't know to what extent they consider themselves, or are considered by others, to be Christians.
There are people within Unitarian Universalism who identify as Christian, but it would be pretty inaccurate to call the religion as a whole Christian. And I strongly suspect(though couldn't prove) that the people who are most enthusiastic about embracing non-Christian practices would be among those least likely to identify as Christian.
The above is about UUs in North America, with whom I have had some passing involvement. The impression I get is that Unitarians in the UK might be keep the Christian aspects of their faith a little more up-front.
[ 17. April 2015, 15:47: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
The question in the thread title does not make sense to me. I can see that if I were a Jew, I might claim Abraham as an ancestor through Isaac, and if I were an Arab, I might claim ancestry from Abraham through Ishmael. I don't see how anyone else would claim to be a descendant of Abraham.
It would make more sense to me to claim Noah as an ancestor.
None of this seems very important.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Like HCH I have never heard any Christian seriously talk about Abraham as their father (outside of the context of a very cheesy children's song).
[ 17. April 2015, 16:48: Message edited by: balaam ]
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Like HCH I have never heard any Christian seriously talk about Abraham as their father (outside of the context of a very cheesy children's song).
Well, Paul says Abraham "is the father of us all" in Romans 4:16. Though I guess the questions then turns on whether you consider Paul and his audience as Christians, or just members of a newfangled Jewish sect.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Paul does go off on a prety long tangent about the Jews in Romans, doesn't he.
"Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh." (4:1)
"According to the flesh" sounds like he is writing to direct descendants, the Jews, doesn't it?
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Paul does go off on a prety long tangent about the Jews in Romans, doesn't he.
"Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh." (4:1)
"According to the flesh" sounds like he is writing to direct descendants, the Jews, doesn't it?
It does indeed. Interesting, though, that that would mean at least a few passages in the New Testament are completely irrelevant to almost all of the Christians who ever lived.
[ 17. April 2015, 17:28: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Not totally irrelevant. But care should be taken that we take the context into account when applying the teaching.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, Paul says Abraham "is the father of us all" in Romans 4:16. Though I guess the questions then turns on whether you consider Paul and his audience as Christians, or just members of a newfangled Jewish sect.
The context makes it clear, I think, that Paul is arguing that Abraham is the father of all who trust in God and are thus justified by faith rather than by their ethnicity.
(Which might also serve as a quick'n dirty answer to Croesos).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
The question in the thread title does not make sense to me. I can see that if I were a Jew, I might claim Abraham as an ancestor through Isaac, and if I were an Arab, I might claim ancestry from Abraham through Ishmael. I don't see how anyone else would claim to be a descendant of Abraham.
It would make more sense to me to claim Noah as an ancestor.
None of this seems very important.
You repeat my point exactly: "I don't see how anyone else would claim to be a descendant of Abraham." Then question the point of the OP!
Christians do call Abraham their forefather, since we have swallowed Judaism lock stock and barrel - though some Jews might say we've chewed it up and made it unrecognisable - essentially highjacked it. No so very long ago this was said or sung every day of the week by Christians in the Church of England:
"He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever." It's part of the Magnificat, and Christians claim the promise that they say the Jews rejected. Why?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I was actually reacting to the title of the thread, rather than to the rest of the original post.
It's true that as Christianity is founded on the life and work of Jesus, we necessarily pay attention to the culture and religious tradition in which he lived and worked. There is indeed a lot of lip service paid to Old Testament mythology, but I think many Christians would agree that we could get along with a lot less of it. Indeed, one of the off-putting aspects of evangelism is that if one becomes a Christian, one is supposed to pay attention to fine details of life in the Bronze age, the Iron age and the first-century Roman empire, little of which seems in any way relevant to modern life.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
It's true that as Christianity is founded on the life and work of Jesus, we necessarily pay attention to the culture and religious tradition in which he lived and worked. There is indeed a lot of lip service paid to Old Testament mythology, but I think many Christians would agree that we could get along with a lot less of it.
The interesting question is why none of the many denominations we've heard of has deliberately sought to do away with 'Old Testament mythology'.
I suspect that the challenges, stories and lifestyles of Abraham and other biblical characters of the ancient Middle East are more meaningful to Christians in many parts of the developing world than to Christians in the West.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Christians do call Abraham their forefather, since we have swallowed Judaism lock stock and barrel - though some Jews might say we've chewed it up and made it unrecognisable - essentially highjacked it.
Sure. Christians have followed the biblical pattern that the younger son inherits, rather than the older one, and so by "unconventional" means.
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
"He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever." It's part of the Magnificat, and Christians claim the promise that they say the Jews rejected. Why?
Because Abraham was a chosen man, the Jews were the chosen people, and now Christianity is the chosen global religion. Everything else is not. As far as the religious value of other persons, people or religions go, now or in the past, they are worth nothing but for the extent in which they participate in this specific means of salvation God has chosen. Full participation is possible only as Christian. So why on earth would one not want to be Christian? It is the one and only real deal out there, available to all, and all else is at best an imitation.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
To add to the above: My two paragraphs connect to each other precisely in the sense that the status of being "chosen" is what is being "inherited". We Christians say that we are Abrahams sons and daughters precisely in the sense that we have inherited the promises God made to Abraham. And in doing so we have as "younger sons" bypassed the conventional inheritance due to the elder sons, the Jews. We Christians are now the Abrahamic religion.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
"He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever." It's part of the Magnificat, and Christians claim the promise that they say the Jews rejected. Why?
Pimple, I wouldn't put it in the same terms as IngoB, but I broadly agree with him.
The argument Paul makes in Romans, and also in Galatians, is that the true descendants of Abraham are those who, like him, believed God's promise to him of blessing, and as a result are considered righteous before God. This can also be inferred from Christ's teaching.
Paul's whole point, like that of Jesus, is that this promise of blessing is not ethno-specific.
The point of referring to Abraham is to highlight the fact that while God's promise is not ethno-specific, it has a very personal dimension: God calls individuals, and does so by name.
The history of Christianity is not one of abstract ideas, but of personal, human experience. It's the history of a whole succession of individuals bearing witness to the same God that spoke to Abraham and claiming the benefit of the same promise.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
To add to the above: My two paragraphs connect to each other precisely in the sense that the status of being "chosen" is what is being "inherited". We Christians say that we are Abrahams sons and daughters precisely in the sense that we have inherited the promises God made to Abraham. And in doing so we have as "younger sons" bypassed the conventional inheritance due to the elder sons, the Jews. We Christians are now the Abrahamic religion.
Careful there mate. You'll be accused of something soon.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Accused of what? The most common interpretation of the Apostle Paul's teaching on the Jews?
Back in the day this had a lot of relevance, most early Christians were Jewish converts to the new religion of Christianity.
Today, very few are saying this outside of the writers of commentaries are saying anything much about being sons of Abraham in a Christian context, and with good reason. More emphasis is now put on what the Apostle John called the 'right to be sons of God.'
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Paul does go off on a prety long tangent about the Jews in Romans, doesn't he.
"Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh." (4:1)
"According to the flesh" sounds like he is writing to direct descendants, the Jews, doesn't it?
At that point in Romans I think he was. The Roman church was of mixed ethnicity and part of Paul's objective in Romans was to help both Jewsa and Gentiles understand their place - respectively and interconnectly - in what he describes elsewhere as "the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-6).
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Accused of what? The most common interpretation of the Apostle Paul's teaching on the Jews?
Back in the day this had a lot of relevance, most early Christians were Jewish converts to the new religion of Christianity.
Today, very few are saying this outside of the writers of commentaries are saying anything much about being sons of Abraham in a Christian context, and with good reason. More emphasis is now put on what the Apostle John called the 'right to be sons of God.'
Well, when I was essentially saying the same thing, albeit in the context of the ancient Good Friday prayers, I got accused of antisemitism.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Ad Orientem
You can get accused of antisemitism in a Hell thread and respond there. As indeed has happened. What you cannot do is import content and opinions from Hell threads into Purgatory discussions. That is a distinct "no no" on all the boards outside of Hell.
Don't do it again and don't do anything else in this thread to ignite discussions of alleged personal antisemitism demonstrated by any Shipmate. You'll get a formal warning and a reference to Admin if you do.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus: The history of Christianity is not one of abstract ideas, but of personal, human experience
Yeah, tell that to the burned heretics and the drowned witches - never mind what you think, feel the warmth...
quote:
It's the history of a whole succession of individuals bearing witness to the same God that spoke to Abraham and claiming the benefit of the same promise.
Well, not always individuals, is it? Sometimes its whole families being nice to one another, or whole tribes being driven into the river for a mass baptism, or whole sections of the community being regarded as beyond the pale and either excluded from "the promise" or required to deny their own humanity in order to qualify for it.
The history of liberal secularism isn't (exclusively) one of abstract ideas, either, but ideas are not proscribed in the face of unwarranted beliefs or promises patently not kept.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Abraham's descendants are those who ARE a blessing. Who received the blessing of BEING a blessing. Through being blessed. Loving because we're loved.
Just being loved and not responding isn't being Abraham's descendant.
The spiritual genes are expressed to the degree that we bless.
In quantitative terms I'm about 1% Abraham. You?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus: The history of Christianity is not one of abstract ideas, but of personal, human experience
Yeah, tell that to the burned heretics and the drowned witches - never mind what you think, feel the warmth...
quote:
It's the history of a whole succession of individuals bearing witness to the same God that spoke to Abraham and claiming the benefit of the same promise.
Well, not always individuals, is it? Sometimes its whole families being nice to one another, or whole tribes being driven into the river for a mass baptism, or whole sections of the community being regarded as beyond the pale and either excluded from "the promise" or required to deny their own humanity in order to qualify for it.
The history of liberal secularism isn't (exclusively) one of abstract ideas, either, but ideas are not proscribed in the face of unwarranted beliefs or promises patently not kept.
I have no idea how this rant is supposed to relate to your OP.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Nor me. Nor how your post triggered it. Sorry.
[ 19. April 2015, 18:54: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's very open of you pimple. I'm moved mate. And I say that as an orthogonal 'opponent' to the gist of the OP.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Nor me. Nor how your post triggered it. Sorry.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
Are you suggesting that there were no religious writings/experiences/traditions before the OT?
I have a hard time seeing how this could in any way be construed as a proper reading of Eutychus's post.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
k-mann. We've moved on. pimple confesses they were triggered. That's a KEY word there. We therefore understand.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
To add to the above: My two paragraphs connect to each other precisely in the sense that the status of being "chosen" is what is being "inherited". We Christians say that we are Abrahams sons and daughters precisely in the sense that we have inherited the promises God made to Abraham. And in doing so we have as "younger sons" bypassed the conventional inheritance due to the elder sons, the Jews. We Christians are now the Abrahamic religion.
Careful there mate. You'll be accused of something soon.
'Replacement' theology, perhaps? I would call it incorporation theology.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
There have been some very useful replies here. I may not be back for a while because I've just acquired a copy of Diarmid MacCullough's "History of Christianity - the first three thousand years" - should keep me out of your hair for a decade or two!
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
The question in the thread title does not make sense to me. I can see that if I were a Jew, I might claim Abraham as an ancestor through Isaac, and if I were an Arab, I might claim ancestry from Abraham through Ishmael. I don't see how anyone else would claim to be a descendant of Abraham.
It occurs to me that if Abraham's genetic descendants were indeed meant to be as numerous as grains of sand (Genesis 22:17) then many of them would now no longer be classed as Jews. After all, his descendants in the northern kingdom of Israel were eventually scattered, becoming the 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel', and they disappeared from history as a distinct racial and/or religious group. A range of peoples from around the world have claimed descent from these 'Ten Lost Tribes of Israel', and hence from Abraham.
Moreover, I see that Abraham possibly took another wife, Keturah, after Sarah's death, and she gave him several children who would have had many descendants not among the Chosen People.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jews. Turks. Arabs. 15, 200, 400 million. 600 million.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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