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Originally posted by mr cheesy:


More seriously, though, I see this as a thoroughly modern, Western thought-pattern which infects much of the church. It is easiest to see in the Charismatic protestant churches, but I maintain that it is something which is widely spread and not confined to those churches.

In some ways, I believe it is a weakened version of the "prosperity gospel". If you observe what we (in low evangelical churches of all kinds, charismatic and non-charismatic) actually articulate in our church prayers - they are frequently thanks and supplication for health, employment, safety and wealth-related issues.

The implication of this form of language is quite stark, I believe.

1. If you do the right things God will like you and come "into relationship with you".
2. If you are in "relationship with God" and provided you pray enough (in the right way) then good things will happen to you and bad things will not happen to you.
3. In fact, bad things not happening and good things happening is evidence that a) God loves you and b) you are in right relationship with you.

And this malaise extends so far that the natural end point is to suggest that those who are not wealthy, not in stable employment, not healed when sick and so on are not spiritual enough.

This is all part of the package that is being spread in many low evangelical churches of many different denominational labels - because, I believe, of the thoroughly wrong idea of a "relationship with God".

I don't believe that this language is part of any of the doctrines of the mainline protestant churches, reflects over-individual forms of religion which have developed as a response to secularisation and have very little to do with the faith we're supposed to be believing in.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Thats not discussion,

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it shows no attempt to engage,

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to listen or to understand.

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It shows a disrespect not only for what was said, but also for the person saying it.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, now I've seen your "see you in Hell" post ...

Just what is so objectionable about what he wrote that's worthy of a Hell call? Perhaps it's just that I've not read the rest of the thread, and you've seen something in the context of that post that I'm missing. But, I would (more or less) entirely agree with what he wrote. There is a strong part of evangelical thought that's "transactional" - if you get yourself in a right relationship with God then He will bless you. In the abstract I'm fine with that, but we more often than not decide that we know what "blessings" will look like. The prosperity "gospel" is an extreme end of a spectrum that has fallen well into heresy by deciding that "blessings" means health and wealth. But, we fall in that direction if we define bleesings as receiving a high during worship, seeing more people join the church, feeling confident that we're doing the right thing.

We often forget the message of Jeremiah. The prophet who looks around and all he sees is destruction, the people being led into exile, the temple plundered of the holy things of God, the city in ruins. Forget about the hymn, he didn't see new mercies morning by morning. Quite the opposite. Yet, he could still declare "Great is Thy Faithfulness". That's a right relationship with God. And, yes cheesy is right - evangelicals (of which I am one) get that wrong time after time.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Thank you Alan Cresswell. Standing alone there are points that may be picked out as having some validity in that they highlight some of the dangers. It's the line of bias that leads away from any concept of personal relationship with God, which has 'infected' the Christian church and which should be avoided as it inevitably leads to ruin - the line which disrespects anyone who claims that relationship with God is something to be desired, that I object to.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm done here.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
As you invariably are as soon as any serious opposition to your views shows up.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
As you invariably are as soon as any serious opposition to your views shows up.

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I didn't bother reading any further than this, Eutychus.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I respectfully disagree, Boogie. It's the spirituality of those whose faith involves a personal relationship with God that is under attack, istm. This is a very profound and important aspect of faith to some. It should not be trashed imv.

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I think this is because the people defending their 'in love with Jesus' position truly do feel that their lover/best friend is being attacked, and take it personally.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I respectfully disagree, Boogie. It's the spirituality of those whose faith involves a personal relationship with God that is under attack, istm. This is a very profound and important aspect of faith to some. It should not be trashed imv.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I don't think you've harmed anybody's feelings--certainly not mine! because you manage to communicate your views without saying or implying that the people on the other side of the fence are "self-grandising," "faking," and idiots to boot. That's the difference between you and mr cheesy.

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Eutychus. WHAT point?

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I didn't say there was necessarily a point in this instance, but that mr cheesy is in the habit of declaring he's "done" when it no longer suits him to engage.

(This is particularly meaningless when he then comes back on, as he has done here, when it again suits him).

Inasmuch as I have a point here, it's to do with style rather than substance - claims to have stopped reading, and much along the lines of what Lamb Chopped has posted.

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Originally posted by Russ:
Raptor Eye,

I wouldn't nominate mr cheesy as the politest and least abrasive person on the ship.

(Don't think I'm a contender for that honour either).

But taken on its own the passage quoted seems to be making an intelligent argument in a relatively calm and measured manner.

Maybe you're reacting to an impression built up over multiple posts rather than anything outrageous in this one ? I agree with Alan C that it doesn't really seem to warrant a hell call.

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Russ, it's definitely built up over multiple posts, and multiple threads as well. In the thread in question, I've pasted disclaimers and "this is my experience, no one else's" and "YMMV" on pretty much every freaking thing I say, and acknowledged that large parts of the church handle things differently. I did every damn thing I could to prevent anybody from thinking I was claiming some kind of superiority over others.

And then mr cheesy comes along, walks straight through all of that, and accuses me of self-aggrandizing and outright faking my experience. WTF?

And then goes on to connect me and others on the thread like me with prosperity gospel types. Time to

And then crawls away from THIS thread and refuses to own up to his own shit. Or even to discuss it. Safe in the knowledge that we won't cross the Purg hosts by doing it on the thread in question.

Bitter and small-minded. And ready to take a dump on anything and anyone he disagrees with, rather than discussing the matter like an adult.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I don't think you've harmed anybody's feelings--certainly not mine! because you manage to communicate your views without saying or implying that the people on the other side of the fence are "self-grandising," "faking," and idiots to boot. That's the difference between you and mr cheesy.

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If I personally attacked you, then you'd know about it, you poor poppet. It must be hard being such a fragile creature that you expect everyone to fawn over your every word when you post them in Purgatory.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

Bitter and small-minded. And ready to take a dump on anything and anyone he disagrees with, rather than discussing the matter like an adult.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
In my view it's really stupid to proclaim you're "done" (which, I submit, is in and of itself self-aggrandizing, since it assumes that your position is so obviously right it's not even worth justifying it), and then come back for more.

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And your dismissiveness doesn't make for dialogue, either.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Give me something to discuss that isn't larded with loaded language, over-generalizations, and false equivalences. As it stands, you're just taking a dump in general.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think you are entitled to your beliefs,

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And THIS is another piece of bullshit. You don't think anybody's entitled to beliefs you personally find offensive. And you will drag them through the gutter if you get the chance.

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As for climbing into your brain: It's so not necessary, when you're dripping bile on every post.

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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I'm perfectly calm. I don't disagree violently. It's your disrespect for the views of other posters that I find offensive, the confirmation bias that picks out what others say and twists it to try to reinforce your own opinion, while dismissing or trashing what you don't want to hear. That's not debate.

cross-posted. Reply to mr cheesy.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

It's also unfortunate because Mr C does in most cases have a point-- sometimes even a helpful point-- in his critique of individualistic, narcissistic Christianity. But the problems Raptor have pointed out get in the way of discussing it-- confirmation bias, over-generalizations. There's a huge blindspot in seeing the same individualistic or relationship language within other segments of Christianity outside his pet target. It doesn't help when instead of engaging those who are trying to address those areas, the response is simply "hogwash" and a further download of stereotypical rants vs. evangelicalism/Pentecostalism.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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And your dismissiveness doesn't make for dialogue, either.

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And what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

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I think you are entitled to your beliefs, but they're stark raving bonkers.

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that's utter self-grandising, over-spiritualised hogwash.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And THIS is another piece of bullshit. You don't think anybody's entitled to beliefs you personally find offensive. And you will drag them through the gutter if you get the chance.

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Not at all, everyone is entitled to believe things I find unpleasant or just plain wrong.

In Purgatory, the point is to defend your views, not to tiptoe around other people because they might find the questioning unpleasant.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

It's also unfortunate because Mr C does in most cases have a point-- sometimes even a helpful point-- in his critique of individualistic, narcissistic Christianity. But the problems Raptor have pointed out get in the way of discussing it-- confirmation bias, over-generalizations. There's a huge blindspot in seeing the same individualistic or relationship language within other segments of Christianity outside his pet target. It doesn't help when instead of engaging those who are trying to address those areas, the response is simply "hogwash" and a further download of stereotypical rants vs. evangelicalism/Pentecostalism.

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That's quite an interesting point, which would have taken the discussion further if you had posted it in Purgatory. I don't think it is correct, but there isn't a lot of point discussing it further in hell.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
On the thread in question, we're not discussing beliefs so much as experiences. It's one thing to disagree with someone's beliefs-- that, afterall, is pretty much the point of Purgatory-- to debate the reasonableness of various diverse beliefs. But it is quite another thing to question another's experiences-- which is precisely what you did with Lamb Chopped in particular,

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and pretty much every evangelical/ Tradition Not Like Yours. Someone mentions their small group Bible study and you instantly know precisely what it's like and what it does and doesn't do and why it's bad.

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Because yeah, every small group Bible study everywhere is exactly the same. When you question my or Lamb Chopped or anyone else's experiences (as opposed to beliefs) you are essentially calling them a liar, and yeah, that's worthy of a hell-call.

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Again, the most frustrating thing is there are some good points buried in the c**p, some interesting correlations that would be fruitful for discussion. But you don't seem to be up for engaging discussion but rather just pontificating on why your version of spirituality is awesome and everyone else's is-- what were your words again? "faked" "hogwash" "self-aggrandizing"

Pity.

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