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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Intercession
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
How do you stop intercessory prayer from being reduced to the mere challenge of completeness? (i.e. How well can I remember everything I've said I'll prayer for? How complete can I get the list of everything else I ought to be praying for?)
If the answer is: write it all down in a list, how do you then stop intercessory prayer from becoming a process of "dialing up" God and then "willing" the data package (the list) down the line?
Built into both these questions is the implied question: what *else* is meant to be going on here? Is the very act of assuming the attitude of prayer, and thinking "I am going to pray for X, Y, Z" pleasing to God, because it is an act of faith? Or does the quality of the "connection" matter more than what you're asking for - after all, He knows our thoughts and our hearts?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
'Quality of the connection' is meaningless. Have you read this study? The two most likely results of intercessory prayer are (1) nothing or (2) making a person worse off. Knowing that, why bother?
If you still want to persist, consider your comments about God already knowing your thoughts.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Then why pray at all?
I'm not sure these studies tell us anything - other than, perhaps, to challenge an overly mechanical approach to these things.
However we cut it, we are invited to pray.
'... And prayer is more
Than an order of worlds, the conscious occupation
Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying.'
T S Eliot, Little Gidding.
Whether we use a litany or go in for the 'Lord we really just ...' style of evangelical prayer, we are still exhorted to pray.
How it 'works', whether it 'works' and so on are secondary issues, I think. I don't pretend to know how or why any of it 'works' or not.
I'm not one for lists or for attempts to read meanings into the shadows on the wall of the cave ...
But I do pray.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Divide your prayers into those which you feel are a duty and those which you desire. You can't embrace the machine/computer metaphor for the human soul and then look down on the idea of making lists.
On the few occasions I pray, I pray repeatedly for the same things. You can't pray for all the needs and I don't think that God even expects that (even if others or your own conscience may do). By the way, the human conscience, the internal hard-drive - can be faulty (even in Christians who are using the latest faith 10.0 software).
Prayer changes things.
Perhaps you need to ask someone who is good at getting their 'downloads' installed? Many of us are still at a loading screen.
[ 19. May 2015, 10:28: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Then why pray at all?
I'm not sure these studies tell us anything - other than, perhaps, to challenge an overly mechanical approach to these things.
However we cut it, we are invited to pray.
'... And prayer is more
Than an order of worlds, the conscious occupation
Of the praying mind, or the sound of the voice praying.'
T S Eliot, Little Gidding.
Whether we use a litany or go in for the 'Lord we really just ...' style of evangelical prayer, we are still exhorted to pray.
How it 'works', whether it 'works' and so on are secondary issues, I think. I don't pretend to know how or why any of it 'works' or not.
I'm not one for lists or for attempts to read meanings into the shadows on the wall of the cave ...
But I do pray.
Whether it works is a secondary issue!!!??!!!!
Is this why Christianity is always 'user error'?
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
'Quality of the connection' is meaningless. Have you read this study? The two most likely results of intercessory prayer are (1) nothing or (2) making a person worse off. Knowing that, why bother?
I don't think the study looks at the effect on the petitioner (or the consequences of that effect).
It seems axiomatic that it would make me a more compassionate person to spend some time focused on the needs of others, and that me being more compassionate is good for society.
But utility aside, I suppose I am starting from the point that God exists and that God wants us to pray. Indeed, the gospels tell us explicitly that God wants us to petition.
Why does He want it?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Agreed about the petitioner. It's pretty clear that almost all types of contemplative prayer/meditation benefit (or at the very least do no harm) the one doing the praying/meditating.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Perhaps you need to ask someone who is good at getting their 'downloads' installed? Many of us are still at a loading screen.
That's what I'm doing. I am sure there is someone on the Ship who is better at it than me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
By the way, the study on intercessory prayer includes those who were aware of being prayed for and those who were not. The ones who fared the worst were those who were aware they were being prayed for. My caution, therefore, was against the sort of 'prayer ministry' type of intercessory prayer, rather than the "Dear Lord, please help Uncle Jack get better from his hernia operation.".
Sorry for the diversion.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Perhaps you need to ask someone who is good at getting their 'downloads' installed? Many of us are still at a loading screen.
That's what I'm doing. I am sure there is someone on the Ship who is better at it than me.
Oh, I see. Okay, well, I have had answered prayers in the past. Firstly you need to ask yourself if the specific prayers (whatever they may be) can only be answered by a miracle or if you can 'put legs under your prayers'. There are some prayers which you can play a part in and the way to get those answered is to work at them and trust that God is doing so too.
This joke contains a lot of wisdom:
'I prayed for years 'Lord, please let me win the lottery'. After 30 years of praying this prayer I finally heard a voice while I was praying. It said: 'Okay, okay, but at least buy a lottery ticket won't you!?''
However, some prayers can only be answered by a miracle and you can't 'put legs under' those prayers. So make like the persistent widow. I bet she made lists to remember what she wanted to say before the unjust judge.
Then keep praying - God likes persistence (based on this parable) so ignore those who say that prayer doesn't work. It does.
[ 19. May 2015, 11:08: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
What would you say is the rate of supernaturally answered prayer? One in a hundred? One a million? One in a billion? Is it more or less than one of these?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
What would you say is the rate of supernaturally answered prayer? One in a hundred? One a million? One in a billion? Is it more or less than one of these?
K.
Miracles? One in ten thousand? Most people say that miracles wouldn't be miracles if they were common.
[ 19. May 2015, 11:41: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Alyosha
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# 18395
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Posted
But there are going to be levels to supernaturally answered prayer. I'm not going to lie to you by saying that childbirth or a flower is a miracle, but many prayers do contain a level of supernatural involvement. To ignore that is to ignore reality.
[ 19. May 2015, 11:46: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Just a thought, having read the STEP study referred to by K.
Those who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer had a worse record of complications. However, overall mortality and recovery between the cohorts was the same.
One could argue that it was a good job that those with more complications happened to have prayer. That their mortality and recovery rates were the same as other cohorts might just suggest that
a) the prayers were needed because of the complications
b)those prayers were answered (complications not leading to worse outcomes).
Just a thought - but you can extrapolate anything from statistics.
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Or c) those who knew they were being prayed for trusted in God so much that they didn't bother to get medical help quickly and so developed complications.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
It's worth following through to read the various comments on the study in later issues of the Journal. Clearly there were various issues.
IME, the hardest thing to do is to take someone/thing off my prayer list. Somewhere I need to have faith that God goes on being concerned about people/situations even when my attention moves on from them.
I heard the other day about a book by David Wilkinson When I Pray, What Does God Do? which I really want to read on this subject.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
But there are going to be levels to supernaturally answered prayer. I'm not going to lie to you by saying that childbirth or a flower is a miracle, but many prayers do contain a level of supernatural involvement. To ignore that is to ignore reality.
I don't see how 'that' is 'to ignore reality', but let's leave that for a moment. Accepting your earlier comment about one in ten thousand prayers being answered, it would be very easy, then, to prove that God answers prayer by asking ten thousand Christians (OK, let's say one million, just to be sure we're ahead of the odds) to pray for the same thing (like a limb growing back) and see what happens.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
But utility aside, I suppose I am starting from the point that God exists and that God wants us to pray. Indeed, the gospels tell us explicitly that God wants us to petition.
Why does He want it?
Good question - especially as said God does absolutely nothing as a result ; anything that happpens will have natural causes, with no connection to any God.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
This raises an interesting question: how much evidence for the harmfulness of 'prayer ministry' would you need to stop taking part in it or condoning it?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
This raises an interesting question: how much evidence for the harmfulness of 'prayer ministry' would you need to stop taking part in it or condoning it?
K.
Very good question. To truly evidence that prayer caused worse outcomes, you'd have to have a double blind random trial, so the patients and their medical teams would have to be unaware of whether they were in the prayed-for or not-prayed-for groups.
The people praying would have to be unaware of the nature of the trial they were part of (otherwise, some or all will, in any case, pray for the control group). And at that point I think you hit issues with the ethics of the trial.
Even if you could engage a group in prayer for some specific names, without telling them it was part of a double blind trial, you'd have to assume that the effects of all other prayers for both the prayed-for group and the control group were equal.
So I think I'm arriving at the conclusion that you'd never be able to get robust evidence that prayer is harmful, any more than you get evidence that prayer is beneficial for the prayee.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I heard the other day about a book by David Wilkinson When I Pray, What Does God Do? which I really want to read on this subject.
Thanks for the suggestion - yes, it does sound interesting.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
For myself I have used a number of methods to "keep track" of people I wish to pray for, people who have asked me to pray for them, etc. None of them have worked long-term, but that may be just an artifact of my personality or neurowiring. Currently I pray for categories of people (family, coworkers, students, "people who have asked me to pray for them," etc.), add "especially so-and-so" prayers if I think of them at the time, and end with a codicil of "and anybody whom I'm not remembering right now." Probably not the best I could do, but it's where I'm at right now and I hope God can work with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
You can't embrace the machine/computer metaphor for the human soul and then look down on the idea of making lists.
Well said!
quote:
Whether it works is a secondary issue!!!??!!!!
I'd say that whether or not it works is not up to us. We're commanded to pray. We're not commanded to make our prayers "work." If we have prayed, we have done our part*. So yes, whether or not it works is a secondary issue when we're talking about our obligation to pray.
quote:
Is this why Christianity is always 'user error'?
What do you mean?
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*At least as concerns prayer; of course there's a lot more in life we're called to do than just pray.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Is this why Christianity is always 'user error'?
I was just making a passing remark on the idea that if you don't get answered prayers or are not somehow living a 'victorious Christian life' (© VCL) that it is always considered to be the fault of the individual Christian in some way. In the same way that some companies will always blame consumers for any malfunctions or breakages.
[ 19. May 2015, 15:40: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
But there are going to be levels to supernaturally answered prayer. I'm not going to lie to you by saying that childbirth or a flower is a miracle, but many prayers do contain a level of supernatural involvement. To ignore that is to ignore reality.
I don't see how 'that' is 'to ignore reality', but let's leave that for a moment. Accepting your earlier comment about one in ten thousand prayers being answered, it would be very easy, then, to prove that God answers prayer by asking ten thousand Christians (OK, let's say one million, just to be sure we're ahead of the odds) to pray for the same thing (like a limb growing back) and see what happens.
K.
I didn't mean to be rude and the figure was fairly arbitrary.
An experiment wouldn't work because you haven't factored in Sod's Law to the whole experiment. Also, would God even want the whole prayer thing to be proved?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
to the OP re keeping track of praying: a relatively simple method is simply to pray at that moment that you are asked to pray. If at all feasible/ appropriate, when someone asks you to pray, sit down with them right then and there and pray with/for them. If it's not feasible or appropriate to pray out loud, pray silently at that moment. If, for example, you are reading an email request, stop for a moment and pray before sending your response-- which then can be in the present tense (I am praying) rather than a future promise.
I find when I do this I'm more likely to remember to pray for the person later. And I feel able to trust the Spirit on the matter, to bring it to my heart/mind if it's important that I "tarry" (as my tradition tends to say) in prayer.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Agreed about the petitioner. It's pretty clear that almost all types of contemplative prayer/meditation benefit (or at the very least do no harm) the one doing the praying/meditating.
K.
Indeed it does Psalms and Coping with Uncertainty: Religious Israeli Women's Responses to the 2006 Lebanon War. Abstract available if you click on the image on the right. I've seen the article. It indicates that belief in the effectiveness of praying the psalms has little to do with tangible benefit. Comfort is gained.
My question: why isn't this enough? And if there is indeed something happening among petitioner, who/what is prayed for and God, is it okay if we avoid too much claim for it? without too much focus on it? and no miraculous anything?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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GCabot
Shipmate
# 18074
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Posted
To the OP:
Assuming God is omniscient, the purpose of prayer cannot be merely to inform Him of our problems. God could theoretically want us to pray merely because it pleases Him, but that seems implausible to me and contrary to Scripture.
I find the most likely explanation to be that prayer serves two main purposes. First, Scripture strongly supports the idea that prayer is not simply unidirectional, but has tangible effect. On the other hand, if God is just, why would He ask us to pray for something rather than just doing it regardless? The best explanation I can proffer is that to do otherwise would be to usurp the free will of Man. Thus, one purpose for prayer would be to ask Him of our own volition for His intervention.
Second, I suspect that, as you implied, prayer is also largely for our benefit, in that it helps us to care for others and remind us of their needs. This would make it spiritually helpful both individually to the prayor, and collectively to the Church and Humanity as a whole.
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The child that is born unto us is more than a prophet; for this is he of whom the Savior saith: "Among them that are born of woman, there hath not risen one greater than John the Baptist."
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I'm one of those people for whom intercessory prayer is becoming increasingly pointless. It just doesn't seem to make much sense.
- We're not telling God something He doesn't already know.
- We cannot change God's mind over what is happening (yes - I know the bits in the Bible where God 'relents', but I think that they are not meant as examples for us to follow suit)
- It doesn't make any difference how long we pray for something.
- It doesn't make any difference how much faith we have (as if that could be measured!)
Asking God for specific things seems so selfish and pointless. God is not a fruit machine, where if you pull the handle in the right way, you'll get a jackpot.
One of the best books on prayer I have read remains "Be still and know" by Michael Ramsey. I particularly value this approach to prayer:
quote:
Prayer is “the act of being in God’s presence”
To be with God for a space. To be with God wondering, that is adoration. To be with God gratefully, that is thanksgiving. To be with God ashamed, that is contrition. To be with God with others on the heart, that is intercession. The secret is the quest of God’s presence: “Thy face Lord will I seek.”
For me, that makes sense. Prayer is being consciously in God's presence. I can then bring into that presence the people and situations I am concerned about. I don't have to ask for any particular thing - I can just bring them into God's presence and know that the love of God will envelope them as it envelopes me.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I pray for wisdom. I pray to get perspective. To work things out. To express my thanks, my feelings, my concerns. How does that harm me or anyone else? And yes I pray to acknowledge my failings. My sins.
[ 19. May 2015, 19:13: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Agreed about the petitioner. It's pretty clear that almost all types of contemplative prayer/meditation benefit (or at the very least do no harm) the one doing the praying/meditating.
K.
Indeed it does Psalms and Coping with Uncertainty: Religious Israeli Women's Responses to the 2006 Lebanon War. Abstract available if you click on the image on the right. I've seen the article. It indicates that belief in the effectiveness of praying the psalms has little to do with tangible benefit. Comfort is gained.
My question: why isn't this enough? And if there is indeed something happening among petitioner, who/what is prayed for and God, is it okay if we avoid too much claim for it? without too much focus on it? and no miraculous anything?
So long as you make no claims about Christianity—because the evidence is virtually the same across religions and no religions. It's about meditation. So what ever the evidence suggests, it has nothing to do with the truth claims of Christianity being unique.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry Alyosha, I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make, probably because I didn't express myself clearly enough.
Mousethief has expressed what I was trying to say better than I did. We are exhorted to pray.That's all I know. How it works is beyond my ken.
I don't have a problem with lists or with people fasting and whatever else but I can't see how we can make our prayers more effective by screwing our faces up and going 'gggnnnnnnn ...'
You get some daft stuff when people try to quantify these things.
I had a friend in South Africa who passed around this so-called prophecy before the Iraq War saying that if God could find 100,000 women who were prepared to pray then war would be averted. Then what happened? The war came.
What went wrong? Did God fail to find 100,000 women. Was there one short? Two short? 527 short?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
I particularly value this approach to prayer:
quote:
Prayer is “the act of being in God’s presence”
To be with God for a space. To be with God wondering, that is adoration. To be with God gratefully, that is thanksgiving. To be with God ashamed, that is contrition. To be with God with others on the heart, that is intercession. The secret is the quest of God’s presence: “Thy face Lord will I seek.”
For me, that makes sense. Prayer is being consciously in God's presence. I can then bring into that presence the people and situations I am concerned about. I don't have to ask for any particular thing - I can just bring them into God's presence and know that the love of God will envelope them as it envelopes me. [/QB]
This.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
How do you stop intercessory prayer from being reduced to the mere challenge of completeness? (i.e. How well can I remember everything I've said I'll prayer for? How complete can I get the list of everything else I ought to be praying for?)
Two somewhat misdirected questions, IMHO.
1. If someone can ask me to pray, they can pray with me right then. If they don't want to take the time to pray, why should I? No list accumulated. Yes there are exceptions to anything, but prayer isn't supposed to be a chore, it's an invitation to spend time with God.
Phone call, "pray for me (or my Mom)" - you say "OK" and start praying out loud right on that phone call. Written request, pray while reading it.
Prayers don't need to be repeated again and again, God heard you the first time. No need to accumulate a long list to be prayed over again every night.
2. This really comes first but where are you getting your sense of what you "ought" to pray for? From God or from the news? Why not instead the things you personally see and hear that didn't get big publicity?
Anyway, it's God's job to save the world, not ours. Our job is to - how is it worded, love God and enjoy God forever? If approaching God - prayer - is a burden we aren't enjoying God so we aren't doing our job right.
Try putting aside the list, ask God what to pray about, and follow your nose. More relaxing and I think more effective because you are praying about things you genuinely care about, not things you couldn't even remember unless you saw the list.
YMMV
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I'm one of those people for whom intercessory prayer is becoming increasingly pointless. It just doesn't seem to make much sense.
- We're not telling God something He doesn't already know.
- We cannot change God's mind over what is happening (yes - I know the bits in the Bible where God 'relents', but I think that they are not meant as examples for us to follow suit)
- It doesn't make any difference how long we pray for something.
- It doesn't make any difference how much faith we have (as if that could be measured!)
Asking God for specific things seems so selfish and pointless. God is not a fruit machine, where if you pull the handle in the right way, you'll get a jackpot.
One of the best books on prayer I have read remains "Be still and know" by Michael Ramsey. I particularly value this approach to prayer:
quote:
Prayer is “the act of being in God’s presence”
To be with God for a space. To be with God wondering, that is adoration. To be with God gratefully, that is thanksgiving. To be with God ashamed, that is contrition. To be with God with others on the heart, that is intercession. The secret is the quest of God’s presence: “Thy face Lord will I seek.”
For me, that makes sense. Prayer is being consciously in God's presence. I can then bring into that presence the people and situations I am concerned about. I don't have to ask for any particular thing - I can just bring them into God's presence and know that the love of God will envelope them as it envelopes me.
I think this experience of God's presence is key to our entire spiritual lives. But I wouldn't discount the first part re intercessory prayer so quickly. Sure, God doesn't need our prayers to get things done. But there seems to be a pretty clear stream in Scripture that supports the notion of intercessory prayer and even seems to suggest that it is related in some sort of causal way with some sort of result-- i.e. that prayer at least sometimes, changes things.
We may not know why that is so, but we can see that being a part of that-- having the experience of things being changed thru prayer-- is a significant spiritual experience. And not unlike the latter spiritual experience you describe-- the practice of just sitting in his presence. In fact, the two fit beautifully together-- each one informs and compliments the other. It is thru our experiences that we learn-- whether we're talking simple arithmetic or scientific exploration. The same is true of God-- through our experience of prayer, including intercessory prayer-- we come to know God, to know God's heart. When we pray big-- ask for things that feel a bit scary even to articulate much less hope for-- we have a chance to see something amazing.
Of course, if we take risks in prayer-- which intercessory prayer always is-- we risk being disappointed or heartbroken. So we have to have a theology big enough to encompass both. Which is also part of the learning experience that is intercessory prayer.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I can't justify it logically, but I do pray, and I pray for things great and small which regularly gets me flamed on Ship. At the moment it's my sister's ovarian cancer, but in the same prayer it could just as easily be my nervousness at the thought of a meeting tomorrow, or the ever-scorned need for a parking place.
I figure--Jesus taught us to pray for our daily bread; he must know what he's doing; he calls us to become like little children, and we all know that they ask incessantly for anything they need and want, great or small, without any shame. I will do the same. Why should I try to be dignified before God, who knows the truth about me already?
If the need for a parking space, or a paycheck, or whatever, is weighing heavy on my mind, I might as well admit the fact and tell God--and also ask him to straighten me out when my priorities are going wrong. I won't be able to do it myself. I know, I've tried.
As for the problem of evil--why God seems to answer some (frivolous) prayers and not other vastly more serious ones, yes, it bothers me and confuses me and all that. But it's not mine to give an answer to that, it's God's (if he chooses). If I refrain from praying for a parking spot or what-have-you, will that make God any more likely to answer someone else's prayers for a life to be spared? I don't think so. God is indeed not a fruit machine, and prayer is not a zero-sum game. What he chooses to give, he gives freely. What he chooses not to give--well, here we enter into mystery. I have faced it myself like everybody else. But I'm not going to stop asking because I don't have a fully-understood theory of prayer.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What he chooses not to give--well, here we enter into mystery. I have faced it myself like everybody else. But I'm not going to stop asking because I don't have a fully-understood theory of prayer.
So, many prayers are said for someone's safety. But, nevertheless terrible things happen to them which their family and community will never recover from. And God's non-answer is 'mystery'?
I can't buy that (and still believe in God)
My only answer is that God does not give us things, or answers to any prayers. God gives us Himself.
So, I pray to ask for more of God for me and others. That we will be more open to God and His ways. So I will do Intercessions in Church - but they are all along these lines. No point asking for God to give us things, or healing, or safety, or peace or anything else.
Of course peace etc may come to each of us when we draw close to God - if we are able. But what makes some more able than others? I don't know.
I can not believe in an arbitrary God, whether the name given to that inconsistency is 'mystery' or 'omnicience' or 'sovereinty' or anything else.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Rather then pray for healing, we usually pray that those treating are blessed with skills and compassion in carrying out their tasks, and so forth. Not for a result, but that X be supported in working for it and if it does not come about. If He wishes, He can perform a miracle, but I don't think it's for me to ask.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What he chooses not to give--well, here we enter into mystery. I have faced it myself like everybody else. But I'm not going to stop asking because I don't have a fully-understood theory of prayer.
So, many prayers are said for someone's safety. But, nevertheless terrible things happen to them which their family and community will never recover from. And God's non-answer is 'mystery'?
I can't buy that (and still believe in God)
My only answer is that God does not give us things, or answers to any prayers. God gives us Himself.
So, I pray to ask for more of God for me and others. That we will be more open to God and His ways. So I will do Intercessions in Church - but they are all along these lines. No point asking for God to give us things, or healing, or safety, or peace or anything else.
Of course peace etc may come to each of us when we draw close to God - if we are able. But what makes some more able than others? I don't know.
I can not believe in an arbitrary God, whether the name given to that inconsistency is 'mystery' or 'omnicience' or 'sovereinty' or anything else.
This is excellent. I remember seeing a list of things to pray for, on a college noticeboard, and it felt as if part of me died. As you say, it raises arbitrariness to a supreme principle. It reminds me of the Dice Man.
It also seems to miss the God who is here now, complete, loving, self-giving. But then it's not so nice to compete over spiritual methods.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My only answer is that God does not give us things, or answers to any prayers. God gives us Himself.
So, I pray to ask for more of God for me and others. That we will be more open to God and His ways.
I find this a helpful idea. For me, it is still compatible with specific intercessions, because wanting specific "good" things are a child-like way of wanting "more of God". But I like the idea of wrapping up "forgotten" things in an overall longing for more of God, in the world, in me, in those who need, more than I like the idea of "....and everything else I've forgotten".
Of course, preferring one set of unspoken words to another seems, objectively, to be a bit daft. But I can accept that I'm a bit daft.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
For me, asking for stuff, has the premise that God is not here, so I want something as a comfort for that absence. But that seems like a cash machine, well, I guess this is one reason I'm not a Christian.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For me, asking for stuff, has the premise that God is not here, so I want something as a comfort for that absence. But that seems like a cash machine, well, I guess this is one reason I'm not a Christian.
Can I explore that a bit further? Are you saying you don't believe that God wants us to petition him, and that this is one reason you're not Christian - because the Gospel asserts that God does want us to ask him for things and you think that is untrue/a misunderstanding/some other kind of error?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For me, asking for stuff, has the premise that God is not here, so I want something as a comfort for that absence. But that seems like a cash machine, well, I guess this is one reason I'm not a Christian.
Can I explore that a bit further? Are you saying you don't believe that God wants us to petition him, and that this is one reason you're not Christian - because the Gospel asserts that God does want us to ask him for things and you think that is untrue/a misunderstanding/some other kind of error?
I don't want to start saying that other people are wrong. I'm just talking about something that baffles me, and Boogie's exposition makes sense to me. In a sense, nothing is in error before God.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
But there are going to be levels to supernaturally answered prayer. I'm not going to lie to you by saying that childbirth or a flower is a miracle, but many prayers do contain a level of supernatural involvement. To ignore that is to ignore reality.
I don't see how 'that' is 'to ignore reality', but let's leave that for a moment. Accepting your earlier comment about one in ten thousand prayers being answered, it would be very easy, then, to prove that God answers prayer by asking ten thousand Christians (OK, let's say one million, just to be sure we're ahead of the odds) to pray for the same thing (like a limb growing back) and see what happens.
K.
I didn't mean to be rude and the figure was fairly arbitrary.
An experiment wouldn't work because you haven't factored in Sod's Law to the whole experiment. Also, would God even want the whole prayer thing to be proved?
You seem to be changing your tune. Earlier you seemed absolutely certain that God answers prayer. If he does it should be easy to prove. The STEP study
was double blind, by the way. At present there is no evidence at all that God answers prayer. Wouldn't it be great to prove that he does, once and for all?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The point is, Komensky, that there isn't any hard and fast empirical evidence that God 'is' in the first place ... at least, not that isn't capable of being explained by other means.
'What about Creation?' people say.
'We can explain that,' say the scientists and cosmologists.
'What about ...?'
'We can explain that too ...'
I'm not saying there is no evidence or no rational basis for believing in God - there is. But the data we choose to base that belief on can be seen otherwise by those who choose not to take a theistic approach for whatever reason.
You seem to be putting a lot of weight on this STEP study, 'Look, look, it proves that intercessory prayer doesn't work ...'
I don't know why that should be such a big deal to you, unless, of course, you've been stung or been put off by rather over-egged 'prayer ministry' approaches which do indeed reduce things to a very reductionist and often crass level.
I don't pretend to 'get' it or be able to explain how these things pan out but as Cliffdweller and Lamb Chopped have said, there certainly seems to be an emphasis on some kind of causal relationship between prayer and what happens around us - at least, that's what the scriptures seem to lead us to believe.
Either we dismiss that as some kind of outmoded, pre-Enlightenment approach and mind-set or we seek to work with it - for all the conundrums and difficulties this poses.
I know several clergy and others who strongly believe that God is non-interventionist and that there's no point in undertaking intercessionary prayer in the traditional way it has been framed.
Yet they still pray ... mainly because they believe it affects change and development in ourselves rather than in our external environment.
I can see why they might go down that route but to me it begs as many questions as it apparently resolves. It also seems to fly against the whole tenor and weight of scripture and tradition (small t and Big T) which - it seems to me - holds out a both/and model. There, I've come back to that again ...
Surely it's both? We can have the kind of Michael Ramsey approach that Oscar the Grouch has brought to our attention - and a wonderful approach it is too - and we can have the kind of approach/es that Lamb Chopped and Cliff Dweller have outlined - or Belle Ringer too for that matter ... although I wouldn't be as strongly against repeated prayers as she appears to be.
I have absolutely no idea how any of this 'works'.
On one level we could dismiss a traditional litany, say, as vain repetition - does God really need to hear the same, set prayers day in day out, year in year out whether it's from the 1662 BCP or the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom ...
But to dismiss these things as such would be to miss the point, I think.
Equally, we could take a very dismissive attitude towards the way prayers are framed in evangelical settings - 'the Lord we just, we really just, Father, Lord Jesus, we just ...' type of prayers.
Yes, these irritate the pants off me but I don't doubt the sincerity or the authenticity of those who pray in this manner.
There's a balance somewhere along the line.
They have a so-called 'prayer ministry' team in our parish which operates at the 11am service - although they've recently been introduced at the end of the more traditional 9am services. I wouldn't go anywhere near them - unless I was really, really desperate and clutching at anything I could ...
They are supposed to have undergone 'training' and so on. They aren't daft, but they aren't particularly sophisticated either. They mean well, but I wouldn't let them anywhere near me and mine.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I know several clergy and others who strongly believe that God is non-interventionist and that there's no point in undertaking intercessionary prayer in the traditional way it has been framed.
Yet they still pray ... mainly because they believe it affects change and development in ourselves rather than in our external environment.
I can see why they might go down that route but to me it begs as many questions as it apparently resolves. It also seems to fly against the whole tenor and weight of scripture and tradition (small t and Big T) .
And why not do just that?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Of course, you can do that if you wish - but it strikes me that you might end up doing violence to the broad tenor and thrust of that tradition ...
If you're happy to do that, then that's up to you.
All I'm suggesting is that the teachings of Christ - as we have them in the Gospels and mediated through the teachings of the Church/es down the ages seem to suggest that God is interventionist and that there appears to be some kind of causal effect between prayer and the way things pan out around us - then that's something we have to deal with/come to terms or or work with in some way.
Setting it to one side doesn't seem an option to me - unless we are prepared to suggest that the disciples, the Church (however we define that) and the broad thrust of Christian teaching down the centuries has been wrong on this particular point and now we who are far wiser and more enlightened have finally rumbled it ...
But perhaps I'm being naive ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Sorry, I don't have time to write as much as needed here. In terms of the personal usefulness of prayer—I'm completely convinced. I'm merely trying to separate that from the claims about effecting change in some external body through prayer—that simply doesn't happen and everyone who cares to look, knows that. I'm not suggesting that prayer is a waste of time (far from it).
Fatto in freta,
K.
[ 20. May 2015, 13:45: Message edited by: Komensky ]
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Setting it to one side doesn't seem an option to me - unless we are prepared to suggest that the disciples, the Church (however we define that) and the broad thrust of Christian teaching down the centuries has been wrong on this particular point and now we who are far wiser and more enlightened have finally rumbled it ...
It's not a case of right/wrong teaching for me.
I can't compartmentalise. So I can't put scriptures/teaching/church in one box and what I know deep down to be true in another. I can't say 'oh, the Bible/Church/Scripture must be right and God is arbitrary, due to a mystery as yet unexplained (why?)
This could very well be a fault in me and probably is.
But at the same time I feel that fear is what causes most people not to ditch the teachings of the Church/es down the ages on this matter. Fear of letting go all they held dear/their livelihood/their fellowship etc.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
but it is totally reasonable to pray about something and not expect God to intervene.
I ring my parents most evenings. I will tell them about the frustrations of the day as part of the call although its main purpose is to check on their health. As they are both over eighty and not well I do not expect them to do anything but listen.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Prayer is itself valuable whether or not we "get what we asked for" in the physical.
Prayer gets us in touch with God, and through that, over time, we begin to get glimpses of God's desires and values, and begin to see how amazing God is and life (now and later) can be.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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