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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Paraclete proving the world to be wrong
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
This was part of the Whit Sunday reading at Church this morning.
John 16:8-11
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. (NIVUK)
The preacher wittered on about how the Holy Spirit could change your life so that your life would stand as a witness to the power of God. (For example, as a student he got an electric shock from a piece of lab equipment, and didn’t swear – which in turn shocked a fellow student). And also how God uses the Holy Spirit to impart the righteousness of Christ to us. There was also a bit about Christ having to return to the Father so that the Spirit could be sent.
I thought that the preacher was missing the point – and that this has nothing to do with believers, but with unbelievers.
What do shipmates think?
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
To be perfectly blunt, I don't think I have ever heard or read an interpretation of these verses that is really satisfying. They just don't seem to hang together - it's as if there is something missing. I rather think John had been eating too many magic mushrooms before he sat down to write that day.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
Agreed, and my commentary glosses over these verses as “obscure”, and doesn’t seek to explain them. But surely the Ship can do better?
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
For what it is worth (and to save others having to find it) here is a link to the pertinent portions from the verse-at-a-time thread on John.
But I tend to be with Oscar--it feels like somebody early on dropped out a line or two.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
it feels like somebody early on dropped out a line or two.
Or dropped a line or two - if you know what I mean!
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
it feels like somebody early on dropped out a line or two.
Or dropped a line or two - if you know what I mean!
I think you're mixing your pharmacological metaphors there, no? As far as I know, you drop a tab, and snort a line.
I mean, according to what I've been told. From total strangers.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
Hedgehog, thanks for the link, much to ponder, having now read the relevant parts of the John verse-at-a-time thread on this.
That thread offered Lamb Chopped’s
quote:
When he comes, the Spirit will convict the world about sin--the Spirit's doing that job because they wouldn't listen to me, didn't believe me, so now they have to deal with the Spirit; he will convict them about righteousness, because I'm going to the Father and won't be around to be the living example of righteousness for all eyes to see, so now that's the Spirit's job too; and last, he will convict them about judgement because.... because....
Or Nigel M’s
quote:
The advocate will present evidence sufficient to secure a conviction on an indictment containing three counts:
On the first count, that the world stands accused of treason (sin), in that (hoti) it did wilfully and with malice aforethought levy war against the sovereign God;
On the second count, that the world stands accused of acts contrary to God's justice, in that it did murder God's lawfully appointed representative; and
On the third count, that the world stands further accused of treason, in that it did adhere to the sovereign God's enemy who had been subject to sentence following conviction of crime.
But neither seemed to answer the question that Pimple raised, namely
quote:
Which promises have been kept? Or are being kept? Or will be kept? In the first two cases, if applicable, there must be many examples of how. Could shippies come up with one or two?
Can we take these one at a time?
Of sin:
How will/has the Spirit/advocate convict/ed the World of sin/treason?
Where will/did the Spirit present this evidence?
Is it in the mind of the believer, the mind of the unbeliever, or in front of the judgement seat of God?
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Had a Splurge on:
How will/has the Spirit/advocate convict/ed the World of sin/treason?
I think there's a question prior to that, which is: what does ἐλέγξει (elegchei) mean? You use "convict" (as does the NAB). The NIV cited in the OP uses "prove wrong" (as does the NRSV).
Gingrich gives the following options: bring to light, expose, set forth; convict, convince, point out; reprove, correct; discipline, punish.
I think the meaning "prosecute" has a lot of merit to it. That is, the Spirit will prosecute the world in the heavenly tribunal, as he defends believers.
But, the other meanings shouldn't be ignored. When a Greek word is so polymorphous, it isn't so much a case of picking a meaning as deciding how loudly each possible meaning is simultaneously sounding.
But, back to your question. With the prosecute sense, the Paraclete will prosecute the world (understood here as all that is falling away) in the heavenly tribunal for the sins of unbelievers.
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
I find it interesting that this passage is within the context of Jesus comforting his disciples. He has told them almost directly before this that they will be found guilty and put out of the synagogues because of their belief in, or loyalty to, Jesus. But here the world will be proved wrong / convinced/ prosecuted about sin because they don’t believe in or aren’t loyal to Jesus. So He’s saying that the disciples will be vindicated, and the Holy Spirit will be the agency through which that happens.
So yes, the Advocate does this in His prosecuting role at the final judgement, but does he also do this in the here and now because He convinces us that the world is wrong by the testimony He gives us?
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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Meike
Shipmate
# 3006
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Had a Splurge on:
How will/has the Spirit/advocate convict/ed the World of sin/treason?
I have also read elegxei translated as "to open their eyes" (Martin Luther). Could it maybe refer to people coming to faith, since sin in this passage is defined as unbelief in Jesus?
Then the promise would have been kept, in that there are many believers now, and here we are still discussing it on the internet.
According to John, this little pep talk was given immediately before Jesus' death (only one or two days?). At this point in time he had only a few followers left and everything could have ended there an then, and should have, by human terms.
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“A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 250 | From: I like this place | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I must say that the impression I got was that the Spirit was doing whatever he was doing with the aim that some out of the world would become believers. If so, it worked. In my case, certainly.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Frankly, i prefer referring to the Holy Spirit in the second person female pronoun. True, the Greek for Paraclete is masculine. But the Old Testament word for Spirit of God is feminine, and the Greek word for spirit is neutered, but it really Trinity more inclusive, at least in my mind.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Charles Had a Splurge on
Shipmate
# 14140
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meike:
I have also read elegxei translated as "to open their eyes" (Martin Luther). Could it maybe refer to people coming to faith, since sin in this passage is defined as unbelief in Jesus?
I'm not sure that the passage does define sin as unbelief: the world is convicted of sin/proved wrong about sin/has it eyes opened to sin because of unbelief. It's not necessarily that the sin is unbelief. If you look at this from the other side, it's rather that belief in Jesus would lead to a declaration of innocence - unbelief leads to conviction for sin because the only effective plea has been removed.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I must say that the impression I got was that the Spirit was doing whatever he was doing with the aim that some out of the world would become believers.
While I believe this to be true generally, I wouldn't have deduced that from this passage.
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" R.A. Zimmerman
Posts: 224 | From: What used to be Berkshire | Registered: Sep 2008
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Meike
Shipmate
# 3006
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Had a Splurge on:
quote:
Originally posted by Meike:
I have also read elegxei translated as "to open their eyes" (Martin Luther). Could it maybe refer to people coming to faith, since sin in this passage is defined as unbelief in Jesus?
I'm not sure that the passage does define sin as unbelief: the world is convicted of sin/proved wrong about sin/has it eyes opened to sin because of unbelief. It's not necessarily that the sin is unbelief. If you look at this from the other side, it's rather that belief in Jesus would lead to a declaration of innocence - unbelief leads to conviction for sin because the only effective plea has been removed.
I really think that in this specific passage “they don’t believe in me” is the sin.
The world (ton kosmon) refers to all people and I see no distinction here between believers and unbelievers, or that one group would be found guilty and the other innocent.
In my opinion this isn’t about declaring guilt or innocence at all but about revealing something that was previously unclear or misunderstood: The true meaning of sin, righteousness and judgment.
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“A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 250 | From: I like this place | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, i prefer referring to the Holy Spirit in the second person female pronoun. True, the Greek for Paraclete is masculine. But the Old Testament word for Spirit of God is feminine, and the Greek word for spirit is neutered, but it really Trinity more inclusive, at least in my mind.
Yeah, but, and even given that I'm of a mind with that, and even given that I'm comfortable with gender neutral and feminine pronouns for God, I don't think you can conclude more than the square root of bugger all from grammatical gender.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, i prefer referring to the Holy Spirit in the second person female pronoun. True, the Greek for Paraclete is masculine. But the Old Testament word for Spirit of God is feminine, and the Greek word for spirit is neutered, but it really Trinity more inclusive, at least in my mind.
I'm guessing you mean the third person feminine pronoun, since I'm trying to imagine the second person feminine and I don't know what that would be in English. You mean you refer to the Spirit as "she", "her," etc., right? Just clarifying.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Frankly, i prefer referring to the Holy Spirit in the second person female pronoun. True, the Greek for Paraclete is masculine. But the Old Testament word for Spirit of God is feminine, and the Greek word for spirit is neutered, but it really Trinity more inclusive, at least in my mind.
Hmmm, the problem with this, as I heard some theologian say, is that you run the risk of making the Holy Spirit subordinate in the eyes of some; i.e. if the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father, then 'she' is merely doing as she is told by the 'male'.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Had a Splurge on:
So yes, the Advocate does this in His prosecuting role at the final judgement, but does he also do this in the here and now because He convinces us that the world is wrong by the testimony He gives us?
From the emphasis given in the NT to testimony before hostile councils, I think that in addition to the final judgment there is also a work of the Spirit through the testimony of Jesus' followers then and now. The Spirit give the words to use (etc.) and in this process the world is judged.
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