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Source: (consider it) Thread: American Civl War is still being fought
Gramps49
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Even though Robert E Lee surrendered the Army of Virgina, and Jefferson Davis was captured shortly thereafter, the issue of the Confederate Battle Flag shows the war is still being fought.

Ken Burns, who did the PBS documentary on the Civil War makes the point that while formal hostilities were concluded over 150 years ago, as long as minority Americans do not have equal rights, the war is still being fought.

Did you know that in the Southern States most town squares have a monument dedicated to the traitors who lost? What other country will its largest Army base after a traitor, General Benning who convinced Georgia to secede? Then there is the Jefferson Davis highway outside of Richmond Virginia.

Take Kentucky--a border state in the civil war. 75% of the volunteers of Kentucky fought four the Union, yet all the statutes in Kentucky commemorating the Civil War are for Confederatoriate vanquished.

And this is not to say anything of the Seven Black Churches which were burned down-- or the 85 other religious institutions which were torched in the past year (most of them Jewish or Muslim).

Guess which side swears by the second amendment?

If there is one thing the Dylan Roof shooting has begun is a discourse on the state of the American civil war.

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Enoch
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If I were a US citizen, and came from the south - I am neither - having my side - being still described 150 years later as "the traitors who lost" would be sufficient to keep the issue alive, irrespective of all the other issues involved.

If that approach is normal, it isn't only the wicked south that is responsible for keeping it still a live contention.

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Tortuf
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Gramps,

Is there still racism in the South? Of course. Racism exists all over the place. It is a stain upon our souls that harms the victims and the perpetrators alike. All notions that a group of people can be judged to be inferior to one’s self is a pernicious lie.

Are there monuments in town squares? Yes. Is it all explainable by the notion that we white southerners are still fighting the Civil War? See, discussion of racism above.

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Alan Cresswell

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Monuments to the losing side in conflicts are hardly unusual. I know in the UK our civil wars are not as recent (I include not just the English civil war, but various conflicts between England and Scotland) as the US civil war. But, you will find monuments at most of the battlefields (regardless of which side won that particular war). The monument to William Wallace is a major attraction in Stirling. There are monuments to Cromwell and other Parliamentarians, and people who revere Charles I as "King and Martyr". Does that mean we're still fighting our civil wars? Of course not.

The exception is when those who associate with one side very publically celebrate victory, apparently deliberately going out of their way to proclaim this to those who associate with the other side. Which is what we still see in Northern Ireland, where one of the big issues relates to flags.

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The exception is when those who associate with one side very publically celebrate victory, apparently deliberately going out of their way to proclaim this to those who associate with the other side. Which is what we still see in Northern Ireland, where one of the big issues relates to flags.

This is the key. I am not an American and would not claim any special knowledge but I think it is quite clear in NI - although things are a world away from twenty years ago - is still fighting the civil wars of long ago, even if the violence level has dropped significantly.

I guess the question about in the US is does this parallel apply? Are there still parts refighting these issues? The confederate flag has great symbolism to some, and very little to others. How signifcant its usage is in some states I would hesitate to suggest an answer but maybe Gramps is right. Maybe, much like Northern Ireland, the sides stopped fighting but haven't really made peace?

AFZ

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Tortuf
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Having lived in the South for the better part of six decades my experience is that the vast majority of people here could not give a rats ass about the Civil War.

The hype about the war is confined chiefly to:

Old white guys who have elegies of the brave and gallant South - where a small band of gentlemen outfought those Yankees - running through their heads. Even among that set overt racism is pretty low considering the way the South was as they grew up.

Young idiots among the more tattoos than teeth set who have to look down on somebody because their squalid lives can't actually be their fault.

People who have not been to the southeast US and who like to make up shit about the region.

Is there still racism here? Of course. Not proud of it. Is it dying out? I believe and hope so. Again, my experience is the vast majority in the South are not any more racist than anyone anywhere else in the world.

But, a cosmopolitan Nashville or Atlanta where growth is rapid and where people from other parts of the country find themselves quite at home is not nearly as much fun as picturing the South as a bunch of hicks waving the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and outrunning the Sheriff in a 70's muscle car now is it?

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:

But, a cosmopolitan Nashville or Atlanta where growth is rapid and where people from other parts of the country find themselves quite at home is not nearly as much fun as picturing the South as a bunch of hicks waving the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and outrunning the Sheriff in a 70's muscle car now is it?

And Maybe the South moved on long ago but some don't want to see it that way because they're too fond of their own prejudices...

AFZ

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
People who have not been to the southeast US and who like to make up shit about the region.

Is there still racism here? Of course. Not proud of it. Is it dying out? I believe and hope so. Again, my experience is the vast majority in the South are not any more racist than anyone anywhere else in the world.

I dunno about "the world." I'm from the US north (grew up in the Boston, MA area) and have spent chunks of my working life in the south -- Florida, both Carolinas, and Georgia -- and have to agree that racism persists on all sides of the Mason-Dixon line.

It gets expressed differently in different places, though. In the north, it's generally somewhat more covert (the Boston school bussing disturbances were an important exception; that was terrorism, not just racism). People of color will hear, "The job's been filled, the apartment's been rented, the house is under contract," etc. and the discrimination will be harder to detect and even harder to prove for those who attempt it. In the south, discrimination tends to be somewhat more overt, and it's somewhat more often attached to a palpable acceptance of the notion of white supremacy. Mobile as our population is, though, this ideology can now be found anywhere.

Sincere belief in the supremacy of the so-called "white race" is (so far) somewhat less common in the North than in the South, and in my view, this belief is the core problem. In addition, belief in "white supremacy" leads more often to out-and-out terrorism, which has been a more frequent activity in the South than in the North. (I'm defining "terrorism" as activities aimed at whole groups of people -- church-burning, lynching, the passing of Jim Crow laws, etc., whereas "discrimination" is more apt to target individuals who are members of those groups.)

Until we can start having frank discussions about this white supremacy ideology, and speak frankly about the fact that whites, regardless of where they live, have been terrorizing (not just discriminating against) people of color since the collapse of southern restoration, I suspect that talking about "racism" (which so often leads to comments like, "well, that black woman doesn't hire whites in her store, and isn't THAT racist?") is nearly pointless.

It's really tough to deal with a problem whose very existence we're so loath to admit.

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Gramps49
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I lived in the Deep South (Mississippi) for 3 years. Actually lived in the only integrated neighborhood in the town. We had some troubles while I was there--a black family near the entrance to the neighborhood had their flower beds torn up one night. A garden club my wife belonged too refused accept a black woman as a member, and my wife and a number of other women immediately resigned. A rural black church was severely vandalized which prompted a number of us to help with the clean up.

Yes, I would say with the continuing influx of Northerners and even foreign immigration the Old South is slowly dying away. That is one reason why Charleston SC has avoided any black riots in the last two incidents--Charleston is very much an equal rights city, its leaders work hard to make sure everyone matters in the civil process. This next general election just may see two or three key Southern States go purple. Texas and Georgia have seen enough immigration from other areas they could go either way. Florida may also go purple.

Still there are pockets of resisters who want to keep things as they were.

Meanwhile, news item: NASCAR has now asked all participants to refrain flying the Confederate Battle Flag. Dale Ernhardt Jr--one of the leading racers in NASCAR (and a Lutheran btw) has said the flag needs to go. The Daytona race is this week. It will be interesting to see how many respect the call to refrain from flying the flag.

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Og, King of Bashan

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When I was at Sewanee (in Tennessee) 15 years ago, you still saw quite a few flags on dorm room walls, tee shirts, hats, and stickers. In general, it reflected an interesting disconnect in the mind of many young men there. There was a general awareness that the flag could be a pretty provocative symbol, and that if you walked into a black neighborhood waving a flag around, you were asking for a fight. But for some reason (probably the fact that when you are 18 to 22 you don't always think about how your actions affect others,) it wasn't supposed to be provocative when it was on your wall. It was a regional identifier and a nod to your ancestors, not unlike having "Je Me Souviens" on your license plate.

I think that disconnect is starting to fade. There are still probably more boys who grow up hearing about their ancestors fighting for the South than there are boys who grow up hearing about ancestors fighting for the North. That tends to happen at the age when you are romantic about war, and are stupid enough to think that bravery and courage can actually win a war, and that but for one little screw up at Gettysburg (152 year ago today, by the way) the South would have won. And that will probably always happen. But I have seen a lot of my friends from the South get behind the latest push to remove the flag from public life, which tells me that the disconnect is starting to wane. Maybe it is the wisdom that comes from years, or maybe it is a symptom of a changing South.

Gramps:
quote:
The Daytona race is this week. It will be interesting to see how many respect the call to refrain from flying the flag.
It may be a race that is run Daytona, but it is no more The Daytona race than a UCLA home game at the Rose Bowl is The Rose Bowl. THE Daytona race happens in February. But that's a matter for the Circus.

My feeling is that you will see a split down the line. Some people are going to be respectful, and some people are going to be resentful and even more visible. Ole Miss (The University of Mississippi, whose teams are called the Rebels) had a tradition of waiving the flag at football games that went back to the 50s or 60s, and they finally had to ban all flags from games before it stopped. Unless you start pulling tickets from anyone flying the flag, you are going to have people flying it out of spite. Gun sales spike every time the President gives a gun control speech, and flag sales have probably spiked in the last two weeks. Spite is a powerful motivator.

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Enoch
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I still say that as long as there are people who go on calling those who fought on the confederate side and their leaders 'traitors', it will be no wonder that others fly the confederate flag. Assuming that it's only 'them' who keep the issue alive is as bad as, and rather similar to, the social progressives who assume that as they are 'liberal', it must be that it is only the social traditionalists who are bigots.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Did you know that in the Southern States most town squares have a monument dedicated to the traitors who lost?

It would be more accurate to say they are monuments to the local men who died in a war.

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Brenda Clough
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A good article about the history of the flag:
From Atlantic Magazine
The good thing about the events of this past month or so is that it has made it plain to everybody that the Stars and Bars is the flag of no true American, but instead the banner of traitors.

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romanlion
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"American Civl War is still being fought"

I have been around here long enough to read some daft OP's, but this one makes the top 5 easy.

Even without the spelling error....

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A good article about the history of the flag:
From Atlantic Magazine
The good thing about the events of this past month or so is that it has made it plain to everybody that the Stars and Bars is the flag of no true American, but instead the banner of traitors.

I won't call someone a traitor for defending their home.

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Beeswax Altar
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Can't let a tragedy go to waste. Banning guns isn't going to happen. Let's whip the social media mob into a frenzy over confederate monuments.
[Roll Eyes]

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Did you know that in the Southern States most town squares have a monument dedicated to the traitors who lost?

It would be more accurate to say they are monuments to the local men who died in a war.
Here's the trick. This is true- the sentiment of the monument was originally to commemorate the people from a town who died in the war. It is also true that had those local men won the war, other local men would have remained enslaved for some future period of time. And it is very easy for people to remember the first and forget the second.

That happens easily enough. I grew up on family stories about my great great grandfather who left home at 14 to ride with the Texas cavalry in the war, and another ancestor who lost his arm 152 year ago today in Pickett's Charge with the Mississippi infantry. And when those stories were told, it wasn't often mentioned that abolition of slavery was at least part of what was at stake.

What I think we need to be asking is how do we get people to appreciate that their memorial, even if they don't see it that way, is a painful reminder to others. Demanding that all memorials come down right now is one way to do it, but you are going to make a lot of people very angry and less likely to appreciate the valid concerns of others. And of course, there are going to be people who never see the other side's point of view, and at some point you can't accommodate those people.

I don't think anything is impossible in the kingdom of God, but racial reconciliation is one of the really tough ones.

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lilBuddha
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Originally posted by Tortuf:

quote:
Is there still racism here? Of course. Not proud of it. Is it dying out? I believe and hope so.
Good luck with that, it hasn't disappeared anywhere else just yet.
Racism isn't a light switch, but a smoldering fire. Burns longer and hotter than it often appears.
And it isn't over until it effects are truly countered. Inertia affects social and economic issues as well as physical bodies.

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Nicolemr
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quote:
I won't call someone a traitor for defending their home.
Defending their homes from what, the loss of their right to own other human beings. Bah, humbug. Traitors they were and traitors they remain.

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Porridge
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To be honest, I've spent the majority of my life in the north, and the OP of this thread is the first time I've ever heard those who fought for the South in the (US) Civil War referred to as "traitors." I've heard them called plenty of other things: Confederate soldiers; Johnny Rebs; slavers; rebels; states' righters; Southerners.

I've never heard them called "traitors," and I have a hard time thinking of them that way.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Defending their homes from what, the loss of their right to own other human beings. Bah, humbug. Traitors they were and traitors they remain.

Well, that answers the question and demonstrates what I've just said. That may be a northern rather than a southern sentiment, but it proves the title to thread is true.

Thank you

[ 03. July 2015, 17:44: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I won't call someone a traitor for defending their home.

I'd hesitate likewise. That said, it's well to remember that (A) 7 states seceded from the Union before hostilities started; and (B) the Confederacy fired the first shots at Ft. Sumter, which opened those hostilities.

Both actions strike me as aggressive rather than defensive. Nevertheless, the utter destruction wrought by Sherman's march was certainly calculated to be punitive. The South, despite a few burgeoning metropolitan centers, has never recovered the economic primacy it had pre-war.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
To be honest, I've spent the majority of my life in the north, and the OP of this thread is the first time I've ever heard those who fought for the South in the (US) Civil War referred to as "traitors." I've heard them called plenty of other things: Confederate soldiers; Johnny Rebs; slavers; rebels; states' righters; Southerners.

I've never heard them called "traitors," and I have a hard time thinking of them that way.

I've seen it a lot more in the last few weeks, and certainly at the time of the war they were seen as traitors by those in the North who vocally supported the war.

Do we have a hard time thinking of them as traitors because our country's national holiday celebrates an act of treason? The CSA certainly saw itself as walking in the footsteps of the American Revolution, and put Washington on its seal.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Here's the trick. This is true- the sentiment of the monument was originally to commemorate the people from a town who died in the war.

It still is.

quote:
It is also true that had those local men won the war, other local men would have remained enslaved for some future period of time. And it is very easy for people to remember the first and forget the second.
I think that both are remembered.

quote:
That happens easily enough. I grew up on family stories . . .
I don't know what my ancestors did, if anything, during that war. My mother's family has been in Western North Carolina for a long time. It was sparsely populated at the time and there was tremendous division between Union and secessionist sentiment. My grandfather was a CO in WW1 and was made to work in supply when he was drafted because he didn't want to shoot anyone. I've no way of knowing if he was just carrying on family tradition or he came to that view on his own.

quote:
What I think we need to be asking is how do we get people to appreciate that their memorial, even if they don't see it that way, is a painful reminder to others. Demanding that all memorials come down right now is one way to do it, but you are going to make a lot of people very angry and less likely to appreciate the valid concerns of others. And of course, there are going to be people who never see the other side's point of view, and at some point you can't accommodate those people.
It always comes across as crass and unseemly to begrudge others the mourning of their dead.

quote:
I don't think anything is impossible in the kingdom of God, but racial reconciliation is one of the really tough ones.
Anything can be used as an excuse to divide and anything can be overcome if your priorities are in proper order. It could be race, economic class, language, political intrusion, or anything else.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
quote:
I won't call someone a traitor for defending their home.
Defending their homes from what, the loss of their right to own other human beings. Bah, humbug. Traitors they were and traitors they remain.
That's asinine. The vast majority of those who fought for the south did not own slaves. For a good while those who owned more than 20 were even exempted from service. How convenient for them. As many noted at the time, it was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Gwai
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Grew up for about ten years in the south during my teenage years before I escaped back to the north, and I saw lots of negative stuff, but I remember very few people who seemed to spend much time worrying or caring particularly about the civil war. I remember the racist white boy who loved to flip a quarter and say "Heads the south will rise again. Tails it won't." He always reflipped until he got heads. But he was the only one who seemed to be reliving the civil war in any way. Otherwise yeah there were statues to Lee in town, but honestly he was a great general. He easily deserves them, and I'm saying that as a northerner. (Same delightful boy mentioned earlier greeted me sometimes with, "So are you a Yankee or a damned Yankee? Damned Yankees stay.")

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

Do we have a hard time thinking of them as traitors because our country's national holiday celebrates an act of treason? The CSA certainly saw itself as walking in the footsteps of the American Revolution, and put Washington on its seal.

treason
noun
the crime of betraying one's country

rebel
noun
a person who rises in opposition or armed resistance against an established government or ruler

patriot
noun
a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

The colonists were not traitors or patriots, they were rebels. Argue the rightness of their cause, but the definition of what they are is beyond partisan rhetoric.

The Confederacy were also rebels. They were also not patriotic or loyal. But, odious as was their cause, I do not think them treasonous.
The patriots in those wars were the Loyalists in the first and the Northerners in the second.
Again, this is not about right or wrong, but about definition.

[ 03. July 2015, 18:27: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Nicolemr
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Mere Nick, don't be a revisionist. The fundamental issue of the Civil War was the right to own slaves. That's the "states right" that was being argued over. The traitors of the south were defending their right to own other people. If the rich plantation owners sucked in the poor farmers with any other rhetoric, that doesn't change the basic issue.

[ 03. July 2015, 18:32: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
That's asinine. The vast majority of those who fought for the south did not own slaves.

Must we do this every time?
1. Slavery was in the succession documents of several states.
2. Poor people vote Republican/Tory despite the obvious evidence that this will hurt them. It is the aspiration rather than reality which often motivates.
3. There were Southerners, who fought for the south, who were ant-slavery. So, the fuck, what?
Yes, every war has nuance. But the American Civil War was about slavery. If you fought for the South, regardless your motivation, this was your cause.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

For a good while those who owned more than 20 were even exempted from service. How convenient for them. As many noted at the time, it was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight.

Can say that about nearly any war. BTW, how did those rich Southerners get their money?

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Gwai
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Was it? I don't think it was just about slaves, honestly, particularly for the south. There were union states that did have slaves (Kentucky for instance.)

[ 03. July 2015, 18:40: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'd hesitate likewise. That said, it's well to remember that (A) 7 states seceded from the Union before hostilities started; and (B) the Confederacy fired the first shots at Ft. Sumter, which opened those hostilities.

Our state was the last to secede and sentiments varied across the different regions of the state. Like most every war, it was the swells with pull who thought it a good idea, not the regular yeoman farmer.

quote:
Both actions strike me as aggressive rather than defensive. Nevertheless, the utter destruction wrought by Sherman's march was certainly calculated to be punitive. The South, despite a few burgeoning metropolitan centers, has never recovered the economic primacy it had pre-war.
Given the flow of where people are moving from and to where in the US, there are plenty who disagree. I also don't know of anyone who would like to go back to living as yeoman farmers and the like as their ancestors typically lived. Compared to how we typically lived way back then, we're pretty much all swells now.

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romanlion
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The idea that the war was about slavery is akin to the notion that Bill Clinton was impeached and disbarred for getting a blowjob.

Simplified to the point of absurdity, and also incorrect.

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HCH
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It is important to understand that while some Northerners were willing or eager to go fight against slavery, this was not universal. Many of the troops on both sides were drafted. Many Union troops hated being involved and some of them blamed the blacks.

Many people see the war as having been fought primarily over the issue of slavery, essentially a war to preserve the wealth and lifestyle of major slave owners. The carnage was frightful: about 2.5% of Americans were actually killed, comparable to the devastation of WWI in western Europe.

It takes a long time for the echoes of such a event to die away.

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saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Is there still racism in the South? Of course. Racism exists all over the place. It is a stain upon our souls that harms the victims and the perpetrators alike.

In my experience, southerners are more willing to talk about race even if that means they say some offensive stuff, while northerners are more like the people in this video, preferring to pretend that race doesn't exist and/or isn't a subject that can be talked about.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Mere Nick, don't be a revisionist. The fundamental issue of the Civil War was the right to own slaves. That's the "states right" that was being argued over. The traitors of the south were defending their right to own other people. If the rich plantation owners sucked in the poor farmers with any other rhetoric, that doesn't change the basic issue.

No, I'm not being a revisionist. You're just calling me one and then repeating the false notion that the swell's reason belonged to everyone else, too. If folks were really all that hip in the first place, there wouldn't have been a draft. Must one also believe that those who participated in the New York City draft riots in 1863 were pro-slavery? I wouldn't think so. The thought of getting a minie ball in the gut would seem sufficient motivation.

I doubt there were many soldiers at the Marne thinking about Franz Ferdinand, too. Especially if there were a draftee.

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Gamaliel
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No, Mere Nick, if they were on the Western Front on the Allied side they wouldn't have been thinking of Franz Ferdinand but ...

- If French, that Germany had invaded their sacred homeland (yet again) ...

- If British, that the beastly Hun had invaded neutral Belgium and raped nuns and killed civilians and that wasn't particularly sporting of them ...

- If British Commonwealth - it would depend - Aussies and Canadians might consider they were helping out the Empire and the Motherland ... Indians and others that they were serving the Raj - or a whole range of other things ...

If American, they might be thinking of German atrocities - such as the sinking of the Lusitania - or wondering what they heck was going on and why they were there and how best to get it over with quickly -- or the pay-check (they weren't called 'Doughboys' for nothing) ... or a whole range of other things ...

My guess would be that both the US Civil War and WW1 - as in most conflicts - if you'd asked 5 different guys on each side why they were fighting you might get up to 10 different answers.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:

Many people see the war as having been fought primarily over the issue of slavery, essentially a war to preserve the wealth and lifestyle of major slave owners. The carnage was frightful: about 2.5% of Americans were actually killed, comparable to the devastation of WWI in western Europe.

It takes a long time for the echoes of such a event to die away. [/QB]

A bit over a fifth of the southern men between 20 and 24 on 1860 died in the war. If there had not been slavery, I doubt there would have ever been a civil war. To say that that is the reason in the mind of the grunts who fought on both sides is about like saying the folks who fought at the Marne had thoughts of Franz Ferdinand dancing in their heads.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, Mere Nick, if they were on the Western Front on the Allied side they wouldn't have been thinking of Franz Ferdinand but ...

- If French, that Germany had invaded their sacred homeland (yet again) ...

- If British, that the beastly Hun had invaded neutral Belgium and raped nuns and killed civilians and that wasn't particularly sporting of them ...

- If British Commonwealth - it would depend - Aussies and Canadians might consider they were helping out the Empire and the Motherland ... Indians and others that they were serving the Raj - or a whole range of other things ...

If American, they might be thinking of German atrocities - such as the sinking of the Lusitania - or wondering what they heck was going on and why they were there and how best to get it over with quickly -- or the pay-check (they weren't called 'Doughboys' for nothing) ... or a whole range of other things ...

My guess would be that both the US Civil War and WW1 - as in most conflicts - if you'd asked 5 different guys on each side why they were fighting you might get up to 10 different answers.

Exactly. Finally some one gets that it is something that can't be painted with a broad brush.

For many in the south, the civil war meant that they were being invaded by federal troops. Until then, the only time they had dealings with the US government was when the mailman came by.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

Do we have a hard time thinking of them as traitors because our country's national holiday celebrates an act of treason? The CSA certainly saw itself as walking in the footsteps of the American Revolution, and put Washington on its seal.

treason
noun
the crime of betraying one's country

rebel
noun
a person who rises in opposition or armed resistance against an established government or ruler

patriot
noun
a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

The colonists were not traitors or patriots, they were rebels. Argue the rightness of their cause, but the definition of what they are is beyond partisan rhetoric.

The Confederacy were also rebels. They were also not patriotic or loyal. But, odious as was their cause, I do not think them treasonous.
The patriots in those wars were the Loyalists in the first and the Northerners in the second.
Again, this is not about right or wrong, but about definition.

I tend to agree with your wording, although I know that a lot of folks in the North in 1861 would not have.

The 14th amendment, article four, makes reference to "insurrection or rebellion" when referring to the war, for what that's worth.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Gamaliel
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Thanks Mere Nick ...

If I were being picky, I'd ask which Battle of the Marne you were referring to - the First in September 1914 or the Second in 1918.

The first involved mostly the French - and some of the British Expeditionary Force - against the invading German army - which means that there were a mix of conscripts (France had universal conscription) and regulars - the BEF was mostly made up of the small British regular army of pre-War days.

If it's the Second then it involved the Americans as well as the French, French Empire and British and British Commonwealth troops - and yes, most of them would have been drafted rather than volunteers - although there were plenty of those too, of course.

But your point is well made - these things aren't reducible to broad-brush generalisations.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
For many in the south, the civil war meant that they were being invaded by federal troops. Until then, the only time they had dealings with the US government was when the mailman came by.

And for many in the South, the civil war meant an end to being a slave. Not everyone was fighting to keep their own slaves. Some people may have fought for reasons totally unrelated to slavery, or just to defend their own slave free homes. But it isn't hard to understand how your feelings towards the war might be different if your great great grandfather was freed because of the civil war.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thanks Mere Nick ...

If I were being picky, I'd ask which Battle of the Marne you were referring to - the First in September 1914 or the Second in 1918.

Either one. They were both bloody messes.


quote:
But your point is well made - these things aren't reducible to broad-brush generalisations.
Thanks. I don't mind if the Brits have any memorials to or statues of Cornwallis, either.
Besides, it isn't any of my business even though I don't have anything for him.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Was it? I don't think it was just about slaves, honestly, particularly for the south. There were union states that did have slaves (Kentucky for instance.)

The Confederate cause wasn't just about slavery. It was also about the related and intertwined cause of white supremacy. The Confederate leadership was pretty clear about this. Ta-Nehisi Coates has done a fairly comprehensive job of compiling various statements by the Confederate elite demonstrating exactly this point.

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
That's asinine. The vast majority of those who fought for the south did not own slaves. For a good while those who owned more than 20 were even exempted from service. How convenient for them. As many noted at the time, it was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight.

The motivations of the individual soldiers who fought is usually not a very reliable indicator of what a war is "about". This is especially true in conflicts that involve conscripted troops.

How many troops on either side during the First World War felt truly passionate about the assassination of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand or Serbian independence?

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
To be honest, I've spent the majority of my life in the north, and the OP of this thread is the first time I've ever heard those who fought for the South in the (US) Civil War referred to as "traitors." I've heard them called plenty of other things: Confederate soldiers; Johnny Rebs; slavers; rebels; states' righters; Southerners.

I've never heard them called "traitors," and I have a hard time thinking of them that way.

The U.S. Constitution defines treason pretty narrowly. In part this was a reaction to the practice in Colonial times of British officials referring to any sort of political dissent as "treason". At any rate, according to the U.S. Constitution (Art. III, §3):

quote:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
By just about any reasonable interpretation, this makes at least the Confederate leadership traitors. They indisputably levied war against the United States. Certainly more obviously than those involved in the Burr conspiracy, and I don't know anyone who particularly objects to characterizing that as treason.

In short, if convincing large sections of the military to defect and then wage war against the nation of their prior allegiance doesn't count as "treason", the term has no meaning.

For historical reference, here's an obituary for John C. Breckinridge that ran in the New York Times in 1863:

quote:
If it be true, as is now positively declared, that a loyal bullet has sent this traitor to eternity, every loyal heart will feel satisfaction and will not scruple to express it.
It goes on from there in similar style, with a brief diversion into why the usual rule that "enmity is disarmed before death" doesn't apply to a notorious traitor like Breckenridge. Breckenridge, it should be noted, doesn't even have the "he was fighting for his home" excuse. He was from Kentucky, which never seceded.

Ironically, reports of Breckenridge's death were "greatly exaggerated" and he didn't die until 1875, at which point the Times ran a much more forgiving obituary.

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Brenda Clough
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Go and read that Atlantic link again, and read the Confederate leaders' own words. They were certainly fighting for slavery, and said so proudly.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
How many troops on either side during the First World War felt truly passionate about the assassination of Archduke Franz-Ferdinand or Serbian independence?

Maybe enough to hold a convention in a phone booth.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Go and read that Atlantic link again, and read the Confederate leaders' own words. They were certainly fighting for slavery, and said so proudly.

The historical inquiry is interesting, but might it be easier to just say:

Maybe your ancestors didn't have slavery as a personal motive when they entered the war. But other people's ancestors were slaves before the war, and not slaves afterwords. So do they understand why they see it differently than you do?

This doesn't mean disowning your ancestors. I am proud that my ancestor was present and accounted for at one of the most important moments in American history. I think he was on the wrong side of the fight, but my connection to that monumental day gives me a reason to stick with this country and hope for the best.

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Gamaliel
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I didn't know until I looked it up, that there were any memorials to Cornwallis - but apparently there's one in India where he died in 1805 and one in St Paul's Cathedral. He served in Ireland and India as well as the Colonies.

He's not a 'big name' here.

As far as monuments to Confederate generals go - I can understand the sensitivities about that but I can't see why there shouldn't be memorials to them - Robert E Lee was probably the best general on either side, for instance.

It's all about context and intention. Nobody has a problem with there being a statue of Cromwell near the Houses of Parliament - apart from some particularly ardent monarchist types, perhaps.

Putting a statue of him in Drogheda or Wexford, though, would be pretty insensitive ...

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Gamaliel
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And there's a well known statue of Abraham Lincoln in Manchester of course ...

And there's even a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square, just outside the National Gallery.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
And there's a well known statue of Abraham Lincoln in Manchester of course ...

And there's even a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square, just outside the National Gallery.

That's very surprising.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The motivations of the individual soldiers who fought is usually not a very reliable indicator of what a war is "about". This is especially true in conflicts that involve conscripted troops.

Very true. But the motivations of those individual soldiers may be highly relevant to the erection of memorials and monuments, especially local ones, or to the stories they tell their children, which become at least part of a collective memory. They will inform how the war is remembered.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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