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Source: (consider it) Thread: The trouble with girls
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Where to start. I guess with Sir Tim Hunt's own words spoken at the World Conference of Science Journalists with many women journalists and scientists present:
quote:
"Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry."
Stony silence. And this guy got a Nobel Prize. [Roll Eyes]

Dissecting Sir Tim's "trouble": "..you fall in love with them". Own your own emotions, man.

"...they fall in love with you." That's their problem. Demand good work and a good working relationship whatever their feelings.

"...and when you criticise them they cry." Again, their problem not yours. Hand them a tissue. Wait for the tears to stop. Do a self-check on whether you really wanted a positive result from your words or whether you primarily intended to be scathing and demeaning. Then ask if they understood the criticism. Repeat as necessary.

I've heard from men who consider tears manipulative. Sometimes they are. Usually they are just about venting frustration. The same men often think nothing of letting off a loud, angry stream of obscenities and possibly some flying objects when they vent (or manipulate), persuading the less forthright to tread carefully in order not to set them off again. Win-win for the venters. But these kinds of emotions are generally not thought of as being particularly cringeworthy in the same way tears are.

Sir Tim is at the top-of-the-scientific-food-chain. If there are many more like him but perhaps less crude and forthright, no wonder the percentages of women (not "girls") who succeed in the scientific realm are so dismal. Take a look at how dismal.

I've read a number of anecdotal articles from women in math and science in the aftermath of Sir Tim Hunt's debacle. Many have experienced extreme toxicity in both their universities and their work places because of such sexism. Jeez. And this is the twenty-first century.

Any shipmates in science (especially girls...er, women) want share their experiences? And how do you battle these attitudes when you are patently not dealing with ignorance or unintelligence in such a milieu?

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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The proper way to battle this is with ridicule. There are tons of Facebook and Twitter memes out there right now, some of them truly funny. Laugh it to scorn.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Knee and left hook. Attitudes like his are on a continuum with people I would kill.

He has backtracked. And resigned something. Had to. It only goes to show that book or lab smart and otherwise smart are orthogonal. So is frequently observed.

This thread could be in the hell these sorts of attitudes belong in. Ivory tower indeed.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The proper way to battle this is with ridicule. There are tons of Facebook and Twitter memes out there right now, some of them truly funny. Laugh it to scorn.

Yeah, the response to this silly statement has been ridiculously uplifting. All This guy did was set up the opportunity for female scientists to show how hard they work.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
"Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry."
I've worked with quite a lot of women. Total number of women I've experienced crying in the face of criticism, in the last decade or so? One.

(The criticism was not unjustified. The phrasing was a little robust, which might be because English is not the first language of the author of the criticism.)

Total number of men I've experienced crying in the face of criticism? Five.

(In three cases, the criticism was valid, but again expressed robustly. In one case, the criticism was due to a personal animus that a line manager had for one of his underlings. In the fifth, I don't know whether the criticism was justified or not.)

So one woman, five men. That's also roughly the sex ratio of the people I work with.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The proper way to battle this is with ridicule. There are tons of Facebook and Twitter memes out there right now, some of them truly funny. Laugh it to scorn.

Yeah, the response to this silly statement has been ridiculously uplifting. All This guy did was set up the opportunity for female scientists to show how hard they work.
Been loving the responses. [Overused]

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've read a number of anecdotal articles from women in math and science in the aftermath of Sir Tim Hunt's debacle. Many have experienced extreme toxicity in both their universities and their work places because of such sexism. Jeez. And this is the twenty-first century.

I'm a man, but still I have to say that this is not my experience with the academe at all. I have two PhD students currently. Both women. My Head of School is a woman, in an engineering department. We have several female Professors, all very much respected. I'm collaborating with the head of department of food sciences at the moment, a woman. When I meet with other PGR directors, about half of them are women. The head of the graduate school (the overall PGR boss) is a woman. I sit in committees selecting new members of staff now and then, gender has never been an issue. The former Pro Vice Chancellor Research, who hired me, was a woman. Etc.

Frankly, I don't give a shit if you are a Martian hermaphrodite. I'm interested in what your brain can do for my research agenda, that's all. I know few academics that have a different attitude, as far as science is concerned.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

I've heard from men who consider tears manipulative. Sometimes they are. Usually they are just about venting frustration. The same men often think nothing of letting off a loud, angry stream of obscenities and possibly some flying objects when they vent (or manipulate), persuading the less forthright to tread carefully in order not to set them off again. Win-win for the venters. But these kinds of emotions are generally not thought of as being particularly cringeworthy in the same way tears are.


Excellent point. How is terrifying someone into retreat not manipulation?

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Schroedinger's cat

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I do understand that he meant it humourously, and that some academics are not good with other people, so their humour is, erm, ill-advised.

Oh, and all sorts of people have won Nobel prizes for their academic work despite being completely unable to deal with other people. In some areas, it is almost a necessity.

Not that this excuses it, of course, and he was well out of order. The response has been wonderful.

I work in IT, a business that has been - still is - very misogynistic. In all of the places I have worked, the number of women I have worked with who are technical is low - probably 2-5%. And they have been as good as any others. Gender has not been an issue EVER with people I have worked with.

I have never fallen in love with any of them, and none with me. I have never had any of them cry after criticism. In fact, it has been men who have had the most emotional reaction to criticisms.

In truth, gender has NEVER been an issue in dealing with co-workers. Incompetence, yes. Arrogance, yes. Being a woman, No.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I do understand that he meant it humourously, and that some academics are not good with other people, so their humour is, erm, ill-advised.

Oh, and all sorts of people have won Nobel prizes for their academic work despite being completely unable to deal with other people. In some areas, it is almost a necessity.


This... actually makes a lot of sense. And kind of makes me feel sorry for the guy. He was probably standing there expecting a good laugh, only to hear a record scratch...

Still, it gave a good excuse for a lot of sporting good fun, and who can complain about that, right? [Big Grin]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Eutychus
From the edge
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What is stupid is that the guy appears to have lost his position over it. Ridicule would be enough. I don't know the background, but to me that reeks of frustrated rivals [of either sex] seizing an opportunity to go for the jugular, regardless of the issue.

Speaking as an outsider, academic research appears to be one of the nastiest, bitchiest, vengeful and manipulative working environments to be in.

[edited for clarity]

[ 13. June 2015, 08:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What is stupid is that the guy appears to have lost his position over it. Ridicule would be enough. I don't know the background, but to me that reeks of frustrated rivals [of either sex] seizing an opportunity to go for the jugular, regardless of the issue.

Maybe. But maybe, post comment, it just became completely untenable to have him around in the lab - because, you know, he had become a source of distraction from the real, important, work going on. To which I find I can only say 'fnarr'.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, at first I was surprised he quit - or was pushed. But then I realized that as well as the misognynistic comments about girls crying, he was actually calling for single-sex labs. Whoah, there, shades of Saudi Arabia. This would mean women being banned in some labs, well, a lot of labs. And they're trying to attract girls into science!

There is no way that UCL would countenance that, as they were one of the first English unis to admit women equally, and were also linked with English rationalist traditions, esp. Bentham and Mill.

I worked there for a while, and this liberal tradition is still strong. I heard that 'senior scientists' informed him smartish that he was an unperson. Quite right.

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've read a number of anecdotal articles from women in math and science in the aftermath of Sir Tim Hunt's debacle. Many have experienced extreme toxicity in both their universities and their work places because of such sexism. Jeez. And this is the twenty-first century.

I'm a man, but still I have to say that this is not my experience with the academe at all. I have two PhD students currently. Both women. My Head of School is a woman, in an engineering department. We have several female Professors, all very much respected. I'm collaborating with the head of department of food sciences at the moment, a woman. When I meet with other PGR directors, about half of them are women. The head of the graduate school (the overall PGR boss) is a woman. I sit in committees selecting new members of staff now and then, gender has never been an issue. The former Pro Vice Chancellor Research, who hired me, was a woman. Etc.
I work (as a mere functionary) in a research institute attached to a University, and I'd have to say this sounds about right. There are many things to complain about, for sure, but treatment of women isn't one of them, as far as I can see (and I am one). People seem to be advanced on merit (with merit, fortunately, being not only a function of number of papers produced, but having some regard to things like leadership/collegiality/participation/community service, and so on), and while the proportion of women to men in high level positions is not 50:50, I'd say it's heading there pretty fast, looking at who's waiting in the wings - and I have yet to pick up the slightest hint of a whisper that there's any man in the place who has a problem with that.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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It seems to me there is a great unanswered question here (in fact, two questions):

Why was he invited to address a dinner on women in science at the World Conference of Science Journalists? Why did he think these comments were appropriate?

I have a lot of faith in my colleagues (I am a science journalist) to report accurately from the event, and Tim Hunt subsequently said that he had not been misquoted. So what actually did he think he was doing?

Connie St Louis, inaccurately described on the BBC as a university lecturer, is actually a long-standing and very well respected senior British science journalist. She reported that Hunt was not joking and went on for at least five minutes with this rant.

It seems to me that the Nobel laureate was attempting to "speak the truth" in the belly of the beast, in this case a meeting about women in science at a science journalism conference. I suspect given his age and prestige, he thought he had little to lose (he was an unpaid - as far as we know - honorary Professor at UCL and on a couple of committees of the Royal Society). As far as I can see, there is no evidence he was drunk and every reason to believe he knew he would be accurately reported in the global science media.

Without rehearsing things for too long, it is worth saying that science has a serious problem with inappropriate sexual behaviours towards women, and women science journalists have frequently reported unwanted advances from scientists and other science journalists (often ex-scientists). I'd therefore postulate that Tim Hunt was attempting to troll in public about the "unnecessary" attention given to the struggles of women scientists and the "lack of attention" given to men. This seems to be a familiar argument, particularly from older men (and some women) who achieved in science decades ago.

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arse

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I work (as a mere functionary) in a research institute attached to a University, and I'd have to say this sounds about right. There are many things to complain about, for sure, but treatment of women isn't one of them, as far as I can see (and I am one). People seem to be advanced on merit (with merit, fortunately, being not only a function of number of papers produced, but having some regard to things like leadership/collegiality/participation/community service, and so on), and while the proportion of women to men in high level positions is not 50:50, I'd say it's heading there pretty fast, looking at who's waiting in the wings - and I have yet to pick up the slightest hint of a whisper that there's any man in the place who has a problem with that.

I believe it is impossible to extrapolate from individual experiences on this. The experiences of women scientists vary depending on the country, institution and even department and subject.

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arse

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Porridge
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With regard to comments by IngoB and others about the numbers of women in science and the public respect they're accorded:

I don't doubt what you say, but I do doubt its applicability to the situation under discussion. What Tim Hunt spoke of was behavior that happens in more private (or at least less public) settings.

I'd bet lunch that a distressing majority of the women being referred to in your posts have dealt, at some point in their professional history, with assorted incidents of unwanted accosting by a colleague or supervisor, or getting passed over for some promotion, posting, or honor on the basis of their gender, or being forced to listen to objectionable remarks & jokes about their gender generally, if not about them personally, en route to whatever positions they now hold.

And, as others have already noted, those attitudes, while definitely on the decrease, persist. What's rare here is that one such incident occurred in such a public setting.

IME, public behavior doesn't often tell us a whole lot about either the nature or the volume of private misbehavior.

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
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I'm clearly somewhat out of step on this one, and in danger of giving out an image that really is not me or my position on equality at all, but a lot of the reaction seems to be people accelerating the Outrage Bus up to 100mph as fast as possible, taking his words as if they were delivered in deadly earnest prior to calling for all women to be kept barefoot and pregnant, preferably chained to a domestic appliance.

As far as I can tell from the less hysterical reporting, he made the comments as an (ill-judged) attempt at light-hearted humour as part of a wider address. Not as the basis for establishing a platform of keeping women out of the lab because ... girl cooties.

Courtesy of the Internet, where every action is guaranteed an unequal and exponential over-reaction, he's suddenly the face of patriarchal misogyny and All That Is Evil. Is he bollocks. He's a bloke in his seventies who strangely enough isn't entirely in tune with current feminist sensibilities*, or sufficiently aware of how quickly a shit-storm can be whipped up with social media by anyone looking for an excuse and willing to bypass context.

After typing that, I feel I should say for the record that personally I prefer to work in a mixed economy. In fact, in order of preference it's mixed, female only, and male only last, and that regardless of the balance in any given workplace, character & effectiveness have bog all correlation with gender/sex. I'm all for the girls, me! I just think Tim Hunt has been drilled a new one somewhat harshly on this, poor sod**.

*Not that those are in any way a homogeneous thing, as we all know.

**This view subject to revision if my understanding of the context turns out to be wrong.

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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Science in Britain is certainly still top-heavy with men in the most senior positions, and many women still feel they have to give up their family for their career - I recall a friend almost in tears at an event after someone described their career, which involved having one child and living in a different country to it.

However, I think Tim Hunt is a not very good representative of an older generation, and attitudes are improving.

That said, many of the people who are arseholes to women in the lab are arseholes to everyone, which is hardly a good thing, and there is still far too much promotion by the off-mains-sewerage route.

AG

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I'm clearly somewhat out of step on this one, and in danger of giving out an image that really is not me or my position on equality at all, but a lot of the reaction seems to be people accelerating the Outrage Bus up to 100mph as fast as possible, taking his words as if they were delivered in deadly earnest prior to calling for all women to be kept barefoot and pregnant, preferably chained to a domestic appliance.

As far as I can tell from the less hysterical reporting, he made the comments as an (ill-judged) attempt at light-hearted humour as part of a wider address. Not as the basis for establishing a platform of keeping women out of the lab because ... girl cooties.

Nobody laughed. The suggestion that it was humour is busted. He knew exactly what he was doing and the reaction it would get - otherwise he'd have said it at a conference unreported by journalists rather than at a conference of journalists.

Furthermore, he repeated on the BBC that the main crux of what he said was not a joke - that there should be segregated labs, that women cry too much when criticised and tend to fall in love too often. One does not need to be on an 'outrage bus' to wonder aloud what that says about the way women are perceived by senior scientists.

quote:
Courtesy of the Internet, where every action is guaranteed an unequal and exponential over-reaction, he's suddenly the face of patriarchal misogyny and All That Is Evil. Is he bollocks. He's a bloke in his seventies who strangely enough isn't entirely in tune with current feminist sensibilities*, or sufficiently aware of how quickly a shit-storm can be whipped up with social media by anyone looking for an excuse and willing to bypass context.
Is he bollocks. I will remind you that his wife is also a senior scientist who, incidentally, regularly appears on panels about women in science. He also had a position at UCL, which has a particularly vocal policy promoting women in science, with input from his own wife. Nobody is better qualified to know how these words would be perceived. This was a deliberate provocation, and unsurprisingly people were provoked.

quote:
After typing that, I feel I should say for the record that personally I prefer to work in a mixed economy. In fact, in order of preference it's mixed, female only, and male only last, and that regardless of the balance in any given workplace, character & effectiveness have bog all correlation with gender/sex. I'm all for the girls, me! I just think Tim Hunt has been drilled a new one somewhat harshly on this, poor sod**.

*Not that those are in any way a homogeneous thing, as we all know.

**This view subject to revision if my understanding of the context turns out to be wrong.

I think you are talking shite.

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arse

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Hiro's Leap

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# 12470

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I believe it is impossible to extrapolate from individual experiences on this. The experiences of women scientists vary depending on the country, institution and even department and subject.

Fair enough, but you then need to apply the same standards to people who encounter sexism. Don't your own comments about "unwanted advances" also represent individual experiences? If you discount (or warn caution against) one set of anecdotes but not the other, you've introduced bias.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd therefore postulate that Tim Hunt was attempting to troll in public about the "unnecessary" attention given to the struggles of women scientists and the "lack of attention" given to men.

The bits quoted of Tim Hunt's speech were so bizarre and tone-deaf that trolling seems as likely as anything. (Single sex labs? Seriously?) It'd be interesting to see the full transcript for context, as well as hear the full BBC apology he made - I've only come across snippets so far.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Knee and left hook. Attitudes like his are on a continuum with people I would kill.

This is very ugly.
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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{ETA: x-post, reply to mr cheesy}

As a genuine aside, just because nobody laughs, doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be funny. The rest of what you've written provides a context that does raise the stakes from "ill-judged" to pure idiocy, so if the additional info you've provided is correct, then I happily retract any special defence of the bloke.

Thanks for the considered and measured response.

[ 13. June 2015, 11:46: Message edited by: Snags ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Good posts, mr cheesy. The idea that it was all humorous seems vitiated by his non-apology apology - I'm sorry you were offended.

As already said, there is no way that UCL, with its proud history of fostering educational equality, could be linked with someone advocating segregated labs. Talibanesque, isn't it?

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Fair enough, but you then need to apply the same standards to people who encounter sexism. Don't your own comments about "unwanted advances" also represent individual experiences? If you discount (or warn caution against) one set of anecdotes but not the other, you've introduced bias.

That makes no logical sense because the two things are not mutually exclusive. The majority of women can experience good working conditions whilst a small minority suffer abuse.

The problem is that pointing to all the people who do not experience abuse tends to devalue the experiences of those that do. But there is no moral equivalence - even if a handful of women only experience this in a small number of institutions, it does not therefore mean that the overwhelming majority should be offered as evidence, it makes no difference.

In fact, I don't believe that the abuse is confined to a small number of women in science. The best evidence suggests that a very large number of women scientists experience abuse at some point in their scientific career.

quote:
The bits quoted of Tim Hunt's speech were so bizarre and tone-deaf that trolling seems as likely as anything. (Single sex labs? Seriously?) It'd be interesting to see the full transcript for context, as well as hear the full BBC apology he made - I've only come across snippets so far.

There was no recording of the original statement, which top science journalists witnessed. They met soon after and pieced together as much as they could, and Tim Hunt subsequently agreed it was reported accurately.

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Sioni Sais
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If Sir Tim Hunt had been at all scientific about his speech he would have had it peer reviewed beforehand.

Oh, and what Schroedinger's Cat said about women in IT.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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If the comments had been racist instead of sexist would you see it differently? As failed humour?

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Sandemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[QUOTE]In fact, I don't believe that the abuse is confined to a small number of women in science. The best evidence suggests that a very large number of women scientists experience abuse at some point in their scientific career.

Given the figures discussed anecdotally at the body for which I work, I'd say that a high proportion of everyone gets abused sooner or later in their scientific career (and I should point out that some of the abusers are women as well). So perhaps the question should be whether women get more abuse than men?

AG

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LeRoc

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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
So perhaps the question should be whether women get more abuse than men?

AG

I think they do.

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Sandemaniac
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But can you give it numbers? Can prove it? I'm inside the same box, and experiencing/witnessing harassment myself, so I can't see beyond these four walls to see what others get.

AG

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rolyn
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Was it just a poor attempt at a bit of Old Duffer humour favoured by a popular radio presenter and chat show host up until not too long ago?

Unless this guy was looking for retirement anyway then fair enough, I don't think he should have been made to resign over it. OK, shout him down, out him for talking bollocks, call misogynist if you believe that's his bag, then leave it at that. It's called freedom of speech-- or used to be at any rate.

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Snags
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Was it just a poor attempt at a bit of Old Duffer humour favoured by a popular radio presenter and chat show host up until not too long ago?

Apparently not. See up-thread where I got torn a new one for observing that, based on the little I'd read, that was how it came across to me. Assuming the additional context given by mr cheesy is correct (and I have no reason to assume otherwise) it would appear Tim Hunt was somewhere on the continuum between somewhat unwise and deliberately and calculatingly provocative.

Although given that same context it also makes it slightly odd that he would set out to be deliberately offensive and provocative, assuming he wanted a quiet life at home too.

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
... As far as I can tell from the less hysterical reporting, he made the comments as an (ill-judged) attempt at light-hearted humour as part of a wider address. ...

Oh, look! The "hysterical" and the "no sense of humour" mysogyny cards in one hand.

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Given the figures discussed anecdotally at the body for which I work, I'd say that a high proportion of everyone gets abused sooner or later in their scientific career (and I should point out that some of the abusers are women as well). So perhaps the question should be whether women get more abuse than men?

AG

No, the question is whether women get different kinds of abuse than men. It's not about the crap that everyone puts up with. It's about the special crap that only women have to put up with. If a prominent female scientist stated publicly that men should be kept out of the lab because they're slobs and break stuff, and that they shouldn't be administrators because they can't communicate or multi-task, would Sir Tim consider that light-hearted humour? Can I call him hysterical if he's offended?

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
... He's a bloke in his seventies who strangely enough isn't entirely in tune with current feminist sensibilities*

Oops. I left out the "feminism is just a fad" card. Snags is holding three of a kind, not just a pair.

[ 13. June 2015, 14:01: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]

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Mili

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If it was a joke it was a really bad one. Has anyone come across anyone on the internet or elsewhere that found it funny? And what if only some men find it funny, but women and many men find it sexist and offensive?

If it wasn't a joke it seems Hunt is the one with a problem. Most workplaces are mixed gender and have been for years - if he seriously can't work with women because he is worried he might fall in love or have someone fall in love with him there's an issue. However as his wife is a scientist and he managed to win a Nobel Prize despite being distracted by women and their terrible crime of sometimes showing their emotions through tears, it seems a strange thing for him to worry about.

Hunt is a Nobel Prize winner and the general public tend to expect more from a Nobel Prize winner than your average Joe Blow. His prize, intelligence and scientific prowess mean he has a lot of power and influence in the world of science and therefore his actions and words will be judged more harshly than if an unknown scientist said them. And of course there are women in his labs and that isn't going to change, so if he can't deal with it anymore he has no choice but to resign. He won't get much respect from his female colleagues from now on anyway.

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Adeodatus
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What I find something between amusing and bewildering is the tendency to counter Hunt's misogyny with ageism. Being in your seventies is neither an excuse nor an explanation for lacking basic good manners and for being sexist.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Given the figures discussed anecdotally at the body for which I work, I'd say that a high proportion of everyone gets abused sooner or later in their scientific career (and I should point out that some of the abusers are women as well). So perhaps the question should be whether women get more abuse than men?

AG

On this - the short version is that academia in general is often a hard - verging on abusive - place to work.

The longer version is that we have a perfect storm of negative effects. Traditionally, as it were, academics made up for lowish pay with security of jobs. So many British academics of say 20 years ago would have been able to get a lectureship soon after they were awarded their doctorate and worked permanently for the rest of their careers. In most universities, most became senior lecturers and took on a heavy teaching load.

Today in many academic fields, this kind of career is impossible for young academics. Many jobs are short-term, many require long post-doc experience, many are very low paid (depending on the field). Critically, many academic roles now are judged on research performance, with some tragic suicides being linked to people getting into trouble for not having enough papers published.

Young lecturers now often have a full load of teaching but are expected to churn out papers at an ever increasing rate. Many are on 2 or 3 year contracts. Some report having to move regularly to keep up with jobs (particularly, it seems, in the USA).

In addition, some research requires very long hours.

Now, as science has been arranged for a very long time it is very masculine. It is true that some women managed to get to high positions after many years of working through the system, but a surprising number of these are unmarried and had to "marry the job" to get to that position.

The end result of all these things is pressure from above for young scientists to "knuckle down" and get on with it (ignoring the fact that the pressures current young post-docs are under is far higher than those nearing retirement experienced) in a working environment which acts against family life for many young scientists.

It is true that both men and women experience this, however it is also true that most men give up their family life fairly easily for science, whereas women are more likely to be care-givers in a family.

Men rarely take time out for families, and women that do will often find themselves left with part-time and non-tenure track teaching roles.

This is even before the women experience forms of unwanted sexual approaches, misogyny and the like.

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Sandemaniac
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I don't think I can disagree with any of that, Mr Cheesy.

AG

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Lyda*Rose

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Setting aside the abuse problem, what about the bias problem? This Yale study indicates that senior scientists, merely knowing an applicant's gender, would assign less worth to a woman with the same qualifications.

Oh, and thanks to the posters who shared about their experiences in the workplace. It is good to know that whatever abuse women may suffer along the way, they can land in a reasonable work environment.

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Unless this guy was looking for retirement anyway then fair enough, I don't think he should have been made to resign over it. OK, shout him down, out him for talking bollocks, call misogynist if you believe that's his bag, then leave it at that. It's called freedom of speech-- or used to be at any rate.

Bear in mind he resigned from an honorary role (so he was probably not paid for it) with an institution that has a reputation for equality and fairness. It was clearly a bad match, and once this is exposed, there is really no choice.

Does "freedom of speech" actually mean, in your book, that you should be able to say anything and not take the consequences of it? To me, it means that he is allowed to say whatever he wants, but that he has to accept the consequences of what he says. In this case, it meant losing an association with an organisation that fundamentally disagreed with him.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Yeah, as the thread progresses, my willingness to empathize with Tim Hunt disappears.

Interesting thing I have noticed in some of the exchanges above:

A: Hunt is an idiot.The women in my lab are treated with respect, comeradery, and appreciation.

B. See? Women are not unduly marginalized in science. Everyone is making a fuss over nothing.

C. Well and good for that lab, but women do experience misogyny in a lot of science arenas, so Hunt's comments aren't " nothing."

B. Where are your numbers?

... Well, while I find the testimony of A ( a composite of several posters) encouraging, why are not demanding that A provide numbers?

[ 13. June 2015, 15:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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IngoB

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There certainly is a residual disadvantage for women in the modern academe, given that they are generally more affected by having children, are more expected to take care of them at least when they are young, and run out of biological time for having children faster.

Given that the academe I know pretty much expects you to do 50-70 hours weeks for decades and bounce all over the world while you pick up enough momentum to land a permanent job, this tends to be even more impossible for women to combine with a decent family life than for men. Furthermore, many academics tend to end up partnered with other academics (not just because of preference, but also because they have no time for meeting anybody else). This leads to the famous "two body problem" (finding a job for both in the same place, when there are few jobs spread globally). If you imagine two postdocs having their first kid together, then it will typically knock back the woman at least six months at that time. Given how tight everything is, this can easily snowball in the man moving ahead in the career and the woman stalling, simply because at every point in time somebody has to bring home the bacon and grab every chance there is.

Anyway, my point is that this should not necessarily be understood as directly misogynist, just as generally inhumane. The academe has evolved into an overly tough competition, which for the most part assumes that you will sacrifice your life, and in particular your family life, to its aims. That this tends to disadvantage women more, has to do with us generally expecting women to have more to do with family life. Whether that is misogynist is a valid discussion, but in some sense it is a different discussion. Basically, given the general social situation of women and expectations in the academe, making the academic playing field truly even for women actually means tilting it against men.

I think for the most part now the academic playing field is near even in most places in the West. But due to the reasons just mentioned, this will not result in a 50:50 split at least on the side of permanent jobs, and that will not be achieved either by any "fair" measures. If you want a 50:50 split, then you have to de facto bias against men.

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Adeodatus
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IngoB, when I read your second paragraph, the first thing that occurred to me is that's almost exactly how I would describe the medical profession in the UK - long hours, moving around a lot in the early years, the "two body problem" - except that if anything the hours in medicine are even longer. And yet, in the UK, the gender balance is almost exactly 50/50. So perhaps in science there's something else going on too?

But yes: that kind of work pattern is inhumane.

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
... He's a bloke in his seventies who strangely enough isn't entirely in tune with current feminist sensibilities*

Oops. I left out the "feminism is just a fad" card. Snags is holding three of a kind, not just a pair.
To your first post, kindly see the end of my first post, and my reply to mr cheesy.

To this one, that was not what I was seeking to imply. I was looking to cover two points:

a) many of those in the later stages of life often come out with phrases or things that those younger in years find excruciatingly awkward because they are no longer in tune with current social mores. If that has never happened to you with older relatives, congratulations.

That doesn't mean they get a free pass, or that they're immune from correction, but it happens.

b) Saying "the feminist position on" as not wildly different to saying "the Christian position on" - I was merely trying to acknowledge that there are many and varied differing strands as to what people consider to be 'feminist' is all.

I was in no way trying to imply feminism (however defined) is a fad, a fancy, a passing ephemera.

I do, however, acknowledge my own un-wisdom in offering a possible alternative reading of the situation when not fully armed with every last available fact, particularly when such reading ran against the prevailing orthodoxy of joining in with giving the bloke a good kicking. Obviously I am a misogynistic bastard of the first order and I shall now go and abase myself appropriately.

Meanwhile, if you'd like to see someone about that jerking knee, I believe there are excellent medical folk of all sexes, genders, colours and creeds.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Does "freedom of speech" actually mean, in your book, that you should be able to say anything and not take the consequences of it?

Freedom of speech in my book is being allowed to express an opinion. The only consequence should be a whole load of people disagreeing with that opinion, in the strongest possible terms if that opinion is deliberately contentious.

What this bloke said wasn't exactly Holocaust denial yet he, and others who trip-up on sensitive issues such as sexism and racism are being make to feel they've uttered something heinous.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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If I made a string of jokes at a parent's meeting about whipping kids who misbehaved, I would most certainly be fired. If a man got up on a stage and talked about how ugly his wife was and all the girls he had slept with that week, he would most likely be divorced soon. One can have one's freedom of speech, but other people have rights, too-- as per Hunt's parent organization's right to choose who represents them and who they collaberate with.

If Hunt was thrown in jail for what he said, then we could talk about his loss of freedom of speech.

[ 13. June 2015, 16:56: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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Aravis
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I take your point. But bear in mind that he was giving a speech, not participating in a debate, and that he was speaking from a position of considerable power and influence as an experienced and acclaimed scientist. He had the chance to inspire all of his audience to pursue their own areas of scientific expertise. Instead, he seems to have used at least that part of his speech to present provocative, dismissive opinions which were directly insulting to many in the audience, without giving them an immediate opportunity to respond.
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quetzalcoatl
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So free speech should have no consequences? Kelly has already given some illustrations, but what about race? I recommend segregated labs, no blacks in white labs - and my employer just has to grin and bear it. I don't think so.

Or I recommend no gays in labs, cos they might chat up the hunky technicians? Oh well, free speech and all that.

The last thing UCL want is some dinosaur like this going around representing them, while they campaign to attract girls into science.

The odd thing is that he must have known that he was uttering poison, so why did he do it? Dunno.

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Does "freedom of speech" actually mean, in your book, that you should be able to say anything and not take the consequences of it?

Freedom of speech in my book is being allowed to express an opinion. The only consequence should be a whole load of people disagreeing with that opinion, in the strongest possible terms if that opinion is deliberately contentious.

What this bloke said wasn't exactly Holocaust denial yet he, and others who trip-up on sensitive issues such as sexism and racism are being make to feel they've uttered something heinous.

AIUI, he had to resign from an honorary position, because he had made it clear that his position was not compatible with the organisation. I am not sure that is actually that serious a matter.

The ridicule in social media is probably more significant to his future career.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, he was explicitly and presumably deliberately going against the methods and spirit of his employer in terms of segregation and equality. Most people involved in English education know the history of UCL, and its pioneering acceptance of female students, not to mention its associations with Mill and Bentham.

It just sounds like a fuck you to UCL. Well, it's reversible.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

It just sounds like a fuck you to UCL. Well, it's reversible.

Concisely put, and spot on.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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