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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The angel's greeting at Luke 1,38 in The Message
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Another passage that has been the basis of much developed Mariology is the angel’s greeting at Luke 1.28. It is the source of the opening of the Ave Maria –Hail full of grace. Modern translations, even catholic ones, are a bit more circumspect:
Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you. New Jerusalem
This is pretty much all modern translations I’ve checked with the extraordinary exception of The Message, which I thought of as dumbed down evo. It comes up with a paraphrase of rhetorical exaggeration to match the Akathistos Hymn, perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception:
Good Morning!
You’re beautiful with God’s beauty,
Beautiful inside and out!
God be with you. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I really like that.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Could it be that the angel was an Aussie?
"Morning, you little beauty..."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Honestly, The Message can be extraordinarily lovely as a paraphrase. I like it a lot and you know dumbed down evo isn't my thing. I am not keen on them rendering eunuch as 'mutilated person' though.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Even if you toss out "full of grace" you are left with "blessed are you among women" which is a semitic idiom for "the most blessed of all women."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I am not keen on them rendering eunuch as 'mutilated person' though.
Charity my dear Miss Prism, charity. We are none of us perfect. I myself am peculiarly susceptible to draughts.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I am not keen on them rendering eunuch as 'mutilated person' though.
That sound if some very nice and well meaning man has heard that gender specific language is sexist and is trying to avoid it at all costs, without realising that this is a case where it doesn't apply.
If Germaine Greer's influential feminist work had been called
The Female Mutilated Person its impact would have been greatly emasculated.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
That's a really interesting rendering: "beautiful with God's beauty...inside and out" for what was traditionally "full of grace." The equivalence being made would make for a sermon in itself, or at least a very good meditation.
We all have lots of notions about what "grace" means, in a biblical and theological sense (i.e., not just well-mannered or unlikely to trip while walking). Being full of it [wordplay intended] does have the effect of making you beautiful - but not by the world's poor standards of beauty. And if we ask what beauty is, we can be directed to Mary, full of grace.
I think this could be easily missed reading either translation, because we're so used to the traditional greeting ("Hail, full of grace"). If someone's familiar with that, this "beauty" translation could provoke some, well, beautiful meditations, but if they're not, if the passage is entirely new to them, it might be glossed over.
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That sound if some very nice and well meaning man has heard that gender specific language is sexist and is trying to avoid it at all costs, without realising that this is a case where it doesn't apply.
Whereas I'd assume it was a misguided attempt to remove jargon/words people might not be familiar with. Still, it's pretty bad, and imprecise.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I am not keen on them rendering eunuch as 'mutilated person' though.
That sound if some very nice and well meaning man has heard that gender specific language is sexist and is trying to avoid it at all costs, without realising that this is a case where it doesn't apply.
If Germaine Greer's influential feminist work had been called
The Female Mutilated Person its impact would have been greatly emasculated.
Actually this is nothing to do with why I object to that rendering. The problem is with the mutilated part, not the person part - eunuchs then included what we'd now call intersex people (so person is entirely appropriate), and men born with deformed genitalia. Cf Jesus's comments about some eunuchs having been born that way.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Whereas I'd assume it was a misguided attempt to remove jargon/words people might not be familiar with. Still, it's pretty bad, and imprecise.
I guess we're all bringing our assumptions to this paraphrase! My first guess would have been it represented a discomfort with pointing out with precision that the mutilated body parts in question were (male) genitalia, which resulted in leaving the mutilation unspecified.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you, pomona.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Pomona - A contemporary demotic paraphrase of "eunuch" might be "queer". But that might be rather strong meat for The Messages' constituency.
Adam - Am I on the right track to associate that paraphrase with the doctrine of the IC? I'm sure the translator never intended it but as far as I can make out it is the same sort of idea (Mary is chosen by God, but is of value in her own right so God in a sense depends on her free choice.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Pomona - A contemporary demotic paraphrase of "eunuch" might be "queer". But that might be rather strong meat for The Messages' constituency.
Adam - Am I on the right track to associate that paraphrase with the doctrine of the IC? I'm sure the translator never intended it but as far as I can make out it is the same sort of idea (Mary is chosen by God, but is of value in her own right so God in a sense depends on her free choice.)
Certainly a lot of queer theology would draw on eunuchs in the Bible as inspiration, but intersex people vary in whether they ID as queer or not - as being intersex is of course separate to sexuality.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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